Politics Scottish Independance.....Thoughts?

Big G

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That's a stretch. Scotland voted to stay in the Union. The Union voted to leave the EU.

It's not like there weren't plenty of us down South that wanted to stay in Europe but unfortunately that's not how all this stuff works.
As I've already pointed out on this thread, Yes was in the lead until the Tories resorted to, frankly, blackmail on the fiscal front. The rhetoric was "vote Yes and you're out of Europe" and "vote Yes and your currency will tank - do you want your pensions and savings fucked?" and that's exactly what happened anyway under Westminster's leadership (the currency part not entirely their fault, but it still happened). We've had 6 years of an absolute Westminster bin fire since the last Indyref with the EU referendum and the horror-show that BoJo and team have become, if you could choose to get out of it would you? Of course you would, and we have a chance at doing that. BoJo knows he can't win this one.

Edit: I see Embattle facepalming things he can't argue with :rolleyes:
 

Gwadien

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As I've already pointed out on this thread, Yes was in the lead until the Tories resorted to, frankly, blackmail on the fiscal front. The rhetoric was "vote Yes and you're out of Europe" and "vote Yes and your currency will tank - do you want your pensions and savings fucked?" and that's exactly what happened anyway under Westminster's leadership (the currency part not entirely their fault, but it still happened). We've had 6 years of an absolute Westminster bin fire with the EU referendum and the horror-show that BoJo and team have become, if you could choose to get out of it would you? Of course you would, and we have a chance at doing that. BoJo knows he can't win this one.

Edit: I see Embattle facepalming things he can't argue with :rolleyes:
And this is why I'm saying allowing a vote as soon as possible is the right thing to do, rather than forcibly dragging Scotland with us through shit times and give them a vote in 20 years time where they'll have a much less easier transitioning into whatever they would like.

@Moriath was right though - the attitude is that the Tories have a majority in the HoC so fuck everyone that disagrees with them.
 

Embattle

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As I've already pointed out on this thread, Yes was in the lead until the Tories resorted to, frankly, blackmail on the fiscal front. The rhetoric was "vote Yes and you're out of Europe" and "vote Yes and your currency will tank - do you want your pensions and savings fucked?" and that's exactly what happened anyway under Westminster's leadership (the currency part not entirely their fault, but it still happened). We've had 6 years of an absolute Westminster bin fire since the last Indyref with the EU referendum and the horror-show that BoJo and team have become, if you could choose to get out of it would you? Of course you would, and we have a chance at doing that. BoJo knows he can't win this one.

Edit: I see Embattle facepalming things he can't argue with :rolleyes:
No it just happens when the subject at hand has been covered and people are just repeating the same stuff they said before, I'm not one who does repetition in anything on a forum expect ironically ratings......as the usual suspects of this habit well know.
 

MYstIC G

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As I've already pointed out on this thread, Yes was in the lead until the Tories resorted to, frankly, blackmail on the fiscal front. The rhetoric was "vote Yes and you're out of Europe" and "vote Yes and your currency will tank - do you want your pensions and savings fucked?" and that's exactly what happened anyway under Westminster's leadership (the currency part not entirely their fault, but it still happened). We've had 6 years of an absolute Westminster bin fire since the last Indyref with the EU referendum and the horror-show that BoJo and team have become, if you could choose to get out of it would you? Of course you would, and we have a chance at doing that. BoJo knows he can't win this one.

Edit: I see Embattle facepalming things he can't argue with :rolleyes:
Actually I think there's value in the Union. I was glad when Scotland stayed and hoped that it would let everyone get on with their lives.

Then it was like someone issued the call of "well something has to break up" so we all moved on to Brexit instead.

We all need to get out of being manipulated into team x -v- team y politics, every time we entertain it we all lose.

If this gets voted on again, that's all that will happen. I don't believe either country will be end up better off. Though I'm sure plenty of politicians on both sides will.
 

Big G

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If this gets voted on again, that's all that will happen. I don't believe either country will be end up better off. Though I'm sure plenty of politicians on both sides will.
I broadly agree, certainly not in the immediate term for Scotland considering key economics such as the price of oil and what impact that would have on Scotland's economics, but that doesn't matter in this case: a majority of people (based on current polls) want Scotland's choices / destiny to be made entirely in Scotland by the Scottish voters. Another way to put it (cliched...) is "I'd rather have a bunch of cunts at Holyrood do it than a bunch of cunts at Westminster".

Edit: yes, I understand that joining the EU is another type of union.
 

Aoami

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It's an interesting one. I think Scotland quickly becomes a very attractive place to live and work for many English remainers, if Scotland can negotiate EU membership. I'm not sure how the Scots would feel about that though!
 

Wij

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The last 6 years have suited the ScotNat narrative perfectly. It has always been about 'Westminster' (I.E. England) deciding stuff that Scotland doesn't want.

Indyref 2014: Don't vote Yes or you'll have to leave the EU!

Scotland: Doesn't vote Yes.

EURef 2016: You have to leave the EU anyway because England wants to.

BoJo couldn't be more out of touch with Scotland if he tried. He's the nationalists' dream PM. Eton posh idiot who shows no understanding of Scots at all. Every time he pops north of the border to say how great he thinks the union is the independence polls shoot yes-wards.
 

MYstIC G

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I broadly agree, certainly not in the immediate term for Scotland considering key economics such as the price of oil and what impact that would have on Scotland's economics, but that doesn't matter in this case: a majority of people (based on current polls) want Scotland's choices / destiny to be made entirely in Scotland by the Scottish voters. Another way to put it (cliched...) is "I'd rather have a bunch of cunts at Holyrood do it than a bunch of cunts at Westminster".

Edit: yes, I understand that joining the EU is another type of union.
I think that's the most stunning part about it all for me though. Say it all happens and an independent Scotland joins the EU of it's own free will. Then what? 25/50 years from now everyone uses that same sentence but puts Brussels in place of Westminster? How is anyone in Scotland any better off? (NB: Please don't reply with predictions of possible future economic benefits because as they say for investments, values can go up or down).

Maybe I'm delusional but I don't think people are really interested in controlling their destiny at all. I'm starting to think they're just interested in deciding who they get to bitch about on the internet and down the pub, which is sad :(
 

Gwadien

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I think that's the most stunning part about it all for me though. Say it all happens and an independent Scotland joins the EU of it's own free will. Then what? 25/50 years from now everyone uses that same sentence but puts Brussels in place of Westminster? How is anyone in Scotland any better off? (NB: Please don't reply with predictions of possible future economic benefits because as they say for investments, values can go up or down).

Maybe I'm delusional but I don't think people are really interested in controlling their destiny at all. I'm starting to think they're just interested in deciding who they get to bitch about on the internet and down the pub, which is sad :(
Because the UK union is far more over bearing and controlling of Scottish politics than the EU is.

As it stands, Scotland is heading down the same drain the rest of the UK is, and they have 0 control over it. If they were in the EU in the future they'd be able to make their own decision whether to leave the EU or not, but the Tories aren't allowing them to make their own decision as it stands, so why would you want to continue to be restricted as such?
 

Big G

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It's an interesting one. I think Scotland quickly becomes a very attractive place to live and work for many English remainers, if Scotland can negotiate EU membership. I'm not sure how the Scots would feel about that though!
Personally, all are welcome - if you go into the Highlands (Assynt, Skye, Torridon, places off the NC500) a lot of the hotel and B&B staff are English employing Eastern European staff. Edinburgh is basically London-lite and the prices that go with it :|.
 

MYstIC G

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Because the UK union is far more over bearing and controlling of Scottish politics than the EU is.

As it stands, Scotland is heading down the same drain the rest of the UK is, and they have 0 control over it. If they were in the EU in the future they'd be able to make their own decision whether to leave the EU or not, but the Tories aren't allowing them to make their own decision as it stands, so why would you want to continue to be restricted as such?
But what real value is that to anyone in the street?

All these potential choices are in reality is unexploded economic time bombs as far as I can tell. They just cause instability which negatively impacts confidence and affects everyone's lives badly.

But supposedly that's a good thing as long as you're doing it to your own kinsmen?

Again, I don't get it...
 

Big G

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Say it all happens and an independent Scotland joins the EU of it's own free will. Then what? 25/50 years from now everyone uses that same sentence but puts Brussels in place of Westminster?
Similar to what Gwad said, but also that the decisions around the EU (joining, leaving, reform) are made entirely in Scotland by the Scottish voters without any interference from Westminster. Seems like a reasonable desire.
 

Big G

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But what real value is that to anyone in the street?
The best answer I can give you on that point is that their vote actually matters. Currently, that is not the case as was proven during the last EU ref.
 

MYstIC G

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The best answer I can give you on that point is that their vote actually matters. Currently, that is not the case as was proven during the last EU ref.
Except that's a stretch again as they did count. What they didn't do is obtain a result that the the current popular opinion finds acceptable.

I think politicians on both sides have a lot to answer for. Right now they should all be sorting out schooling, healthcare, etc. but as usual they're just playing the old divide and conquer.
 

Big G

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Right now they should all be sorting out schooling, healthcare, etc.
100% agree - my Mrs works in a school (one of the best state schools in Scotland..) and it's a shit-show. The political wrangling between Holyrood, local government and the heads of the schools is such a farce. Independence will do fuck all for that.
 

Gwadien

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Except that's a stretch again as they did count. What they didn't do is obtain a result that the the current popular opinion finds acceptable.

I think politicians on both sides have a lot to answer for. Right now they should all be sorting out schooling, healthcare, etc. but as usual they're just playing the old divide and conquer.
Works both ways though.

They've never been happier to push through Brexit, because whilst they're getting richer and everyone else is getting poorer, they'll be able to say it's all down to Covid.
 

Bodhi

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My thoughts are that it is just such as much of a silly idea as it was in 2014. 6 years later Krankie and her bunch of morons are still no closer to telling us what currency we'd use, or how on earth we'd get closed to balancing the budget without all the extra cash from Westminster. Bearing in mind the EU's rules on budget deficits, I'm not sure if any of the "FREEDUM" lot can comprehend the austerity that would be needed to hit that.

I'm guessing this is their usual squirrel to distract from the clusterfuck that is the Scottish Education System, our Health Service (I still rate Westminster's response to COVID over Holyrood's, not that either were great) and the frankly appaling "Hate" Speech laws they want to jam through.
 

Wij

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My thoughts are that it is just such as much of a silly idea as it was in 2014. 6 years later Krankie and her bunch of morons are still no closer to telling us what currency we'd use, or how on earth we'd get closed to balancing the budget without all the extra cash from Westminster. Bearing in mind the EU's rules on budget deficits, I'm not sure if any of the "FREEDUM" lot can comprehend the austerity that would be needed to hit that.

I'm guessing this is their usual squirrel to distract from the clusterfuck that is the Scottish Education System, our Health Service (I still rate Westminster's response to COVID over Holyrood's, not that either were great) and the frankly appaling "Hate" Speech laws they want to jam through.
Somewhat missing the point. There was no benefit to leaving the EU but people voted for that. An economic case for Scotland staying will fare about as well.
 

Big G

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My thoughts are that it is just such as much of a silly idea as it was in 2014. 6 years later Krankie and her bunch of morons are still no closer to telling us what currency we'd use, or how on earth we'd get closed to balancing the budget without all the extra cash from Westminster. Bearing in mind the EU's rules on budget deficits, I'm not sure if any of the "FREEDUM" lot can comprehend the austerity that would be needed to hit that.

I'm guessing this is their usual squirrel to distract from the clusterfuck that is the Scottish Education System, our Health Service (I still rate Westminster's response to COVID over Holyrood's, not that either were great) and the frankly appaling "Hate" Speech laws they want to jam through.
This is just the usual "I hate the SNP" emotional language for anyone opposing the SNP. Currency discussions will be ironed out one way or another, they'll have to be, the voters don't really care about that just now (rightly or wrongly) but I do agree that it will need to be bottomed out at some point.
 

Bodhi

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This is just the usual "I hate the SNP" emotional language for anyone opposing the SNP. Currency discussions will be ironed out one way or another, they'll have to be, the voters don't really care about that just now (rightly or wrongly) but I do agree that it will need to be bottomed out at some point.
I'm sorry, but from the outside looking in the SNP are an absolute fucking embarrassment.
 

Aoami

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Personally, all are welcome - if you go into the Highlands (Assynt, Skye, Torridon, places off the NC500) a lot of the hotel and B&B staff are English employing Eastern European staff. Edinburgh is basically London-lite and the prices that go with it :|.
It's something my wife & I have thought about for a while anyway, and now that I can WFH full time it's more of a possibility. If Scotland was to gain Independence, and I could qualify for a passport (Scottish grandparents), then that interest will certainly become more intense. A long way in the future, but would be interesting to see any tax implications for working for a UK company in an independent Scotland.
 

Gwadien

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I'm sorry, but from the outside looking in the SNP are an absolute fucking embarrassment.
And I'm fairly sure the rest of the world thought we were an embarrassment went we voted for Brexit, but I'm fairly sure you all didn't really care about external opinions, and they shouldn't have a say in whether we vote for Brexit or not.

So I'm not really sure why Scottish independence is any different, surely it's their decision? Doesn't matter how much you love the concept of the UK, it's still only a political union.
 

Wij

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At least when Cameron was in charge in 2014, for all his many faults, he could give a half-decent speech and look like he was taking it seriously.

When Johnson is trying to tell the Scots how great the union is you can tell he hasn't revised the speech last night because old Spadger and The Perv invited him to a toga party and it's hard to concentrate on what the weird northern monkeys are saying because that blonde in the second row has cracking knockers.
 

Raven

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Well technically the Tories know exactly what they are doing, screwing everyone, there isn't any incompetence in their overall strategy, it is proving very effective.

A quick glance proves their PPE procurement stratagy to be a shambles, until you look into who got the contracts. They will be laughing about that at chequers for years to come.
 

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