Politics Scottish Independance.....Thoughts?

[BloodOmen]

Calling it now - No vote will win.

 

[Zarjazz]

I've cast my vote, and I've voted Yes.

So what decided you in the end?

 

[Gwadien]

If you vote Yes, you should be banned from leaving Scotland.

Seriously.

 

[old.user4556]

It was a very long, difficult and emotional decision. Call me gay, but I was choked with tears as I left the polling booth - a few of us have been that way today. I started off an absolute No, within the past two months I started to entertain some of the Yes discussions and then within the past week I changed my mind.

I am a big believer in the Scottish Parliament and I've always wanted more power to come to Holyrood, but as part of the UK. Independence seemed like a massive step too far to me, but over the past two years one thing has become clear - it was not independence. It was some sort of quasi Devolution Maximus, or 'Independence Lite'. I thought I could perhaps see the value or possibility of a Yes vote, but ultimately it would be swapping a union at Westminster with a union at Brussels but with the bonus of all the levers of power we need at Holyrood.

Over the past three months I was waiting for the politicians at Westminster to come up with a rival offer, or a proposal for further devolved powers but it was not forthcoming. It felt that Westminster were not interested in fighting to keep Scotland inside of the UK, probably because the polls suggested a No vote. That all changed about two weeks ago when the first poll came out suggesting that Yes took the lead and suddenly three of the most distrusted millionaire politicians came to Scotland and proceeded to talk complete and utter bollocks in the most patronising fashion imaginable. In addition to that, Better Together changed strategy completely across the TV and social media channels. Instead of a vision of being stronger, better and progressive Scotland, they started siding with threats and fears of the pro-Union campaigners. We moved from "we're stronger together!" to "vote Yes, and there will be higher taxes / higher food prices / no jobs / companies will leave in droves / the banks will shit / you won't have any more sex" - it was just a relentless campaign of doom, gloom, disaster and negativity. The Better Together that I so truly believe in to promote strength just became part of the Tory smearing.

On the back of said negativity, it all kicked off when the banks said "we're moving our registered headquarters as part of a legal entity move" which was seized upon by Better Together as "vote Yes and banks will shut shop, move to England and you'll lose your job". It spread on Twitter and the BBC like a wildfire when noone asked the simple question "erm, where are Lloyds' headquarters? They're in London already? oh.... so why are Better Together saying they're moving to England?". It was just the beginning of a flood of lies.

John "two jags" Prescott, Gordon Brown, Nick "two faced" Clegg and David Cameron sealed the deal with their utterly desperate and insincere offers of extra powers that Louise Mensch tweeted about basically saying "no fucking chance" and were seized upon by Tory backbenchers. The Barnett formula will be reviewed and it's a simple case that if Westminster cut the block grant to Scotland, then it is Holyrood that are responsible to raise taxes to cover the shortfall. In short, my favoured option of Devo Max looked less appealing by the day as politicians on both sides of the border turned up the heat on the Westminster proposals.

I've always respected Sir Tom Devine who was a "No, but Devo Max please" much like myself but he too, like me, switched to Yes. He made a point last night on the TV that I agree with - this is the start of the unravelling of The Union, if it's not Yes tomorrow, it'll be Devo Min but ultimately independence is inevitable as outlined in the West Lothian Question.

Finally, supplementary to the above paragraph, there was an English born and raised Yes voter on the same TV programme (still retained his accent) and had lived in Scotland for the past couple of years. His truly believed that Yes would change politics for all of us, probably for the better including the English and Westminster. That ties in with what I hear from my English colleagues - the London-centric politics doesn't work for a lot of them and they indeed want to see change. A Yes vote could lead the way for a genuine political revolution across these islands.

Please - do not think that I've taken this lightly. It's not about "FREEEDOM", or oil, or shortbread tin visions of Scotland. This was a very, very tough decision. I don't like Salmond, Sturgeon or the SNP. I didn't vote for them. I voted for change.

 

[BloodOmen]

So to sum that up @Big G - you've basically voted 'yes' to stick it to the man? because that's all it reads as, again that's an incredibly stupid way of looking at it but that's your decision and we have no choice but to accept it. Hopefully it doesn't backfire on everyone that voted yes.

 

[old.user4556]

You don't agree with anything from Yes - we get it.

 

[BloodOmen]

You don't agree with anything from Yes - we get it.

You're right, I don't agree with the Yes vote. Your decision though as said and I genuinely hope its not one that Scotland comes to regret in the long run as I have family up there.

 

[Mabs]

@Big G so if the NO vote wins, will you be emmigrating as you clearly dont want to live in the UK ?

 

[old.user4556]

No.

 

[Bodhi]

Whilst I admire your optimism G, you have sadly fallen quite far in my estimation by going for the "stick it to the man" approach. It's only because you were so high in my estimation in the first place that there isn't more swearing in this post.

 

[Mabs]

you can facepalm me all you want @Raven but its a valid point , if people dont want to live under the UK government , and are of working age, decent income etc to meet requirements, they could quite easily go elsewhere, canada, australia etc, if they are that opposed to the current system

 

[Gwadien]

Whilst I admire your optimism G, you have sadly fallen quite far in my estimation by going for the "stick it to the man" approach. It's only because you were so high in my estimation in the first place that there isn't more swearing in this post.

He has fallen below your expectations because he doesn't agree with your politics?

I never realised this forum was such a Tory bastion, I thought @Lamp was the only one that browsed wearing a top hat and a monocle.

you can facepalm me all you want @Raven but its a valid point , if people dont want to live under the UK government , and are of working age, decent income etc to meet requirements, they could quite easily go elsewhere, canada, australia etc, if they are that opposed to the current system

That's like saying if the political party you don't support win, are you going to move country?

You can still be a nationalist in the United Kingdom... they've been doing it for years, they'll just fight for another referendum in the future.

 

[Raven]

you can facepalm me all you want @Raven but its a valid point , if people dont want to live under the UK government , and are of working age, decent income etc to meet requirements, they could quite easily go elsewhere, canada, australia etc, if they are that opposed to the current system

Er no. Although I would consider emigrating if Labour ever get in again I doubt I would.

 

[Bodhi]

He has fallen below your expectations because he doesn't agree with your politics?

I never realised this forum was such a Tory bastion, I thought @Lamp was the only one that browsed wearing a top hat and a monocle.

My opinion on the Independence matter has nothing to do with Left/Right Wing politics - it's about caring about the future of my country (the UK) and the part of that country I am from (Scotland). Some of the behaviour I have heard about from both sides of the camp (but mainly Yes), makes me fear for the future of a very prosperous and nice place to live. Sorry if you haven't gained enough life experience yet to see this transcends party politics, maybe when you get into the real world you'll see my point.

 

[Gwadien]

My opin ion on the Independence matter has nothing to do with Left/Right Wing politics - it's about caring about the future of my country (the UK) and the part of that country I am from (Scotland). Some of the behaviour I have heard about from both sides of the camp (but mainly Yes), makes me fear for the future of a very prosperous and nice place to live. Sorry if you haven't gained enough life experience yet to see this transcends party politics, maybe when you get into the real world you'll see my point.

Patronising much?

I'll trump your pathetic personal insults and ascend to the higher ground by not responding in a equally pathetic way.

But no, I disagree completely, it's completely about Left/Right wing politics along with it's economical effects, if G feels that he'll be secure in a Independent Scotland, but he feels like there can be a Government that is more representative to him than a Government in Westminster, why not vote Yes?

You're not exactly going to vote Yes if you're a small business owner and wants to see what the Tories can offer in helping your business succeed.

When the Labour party grew in power, the Torys even back then were worried about the world ending, because that we'd turn into a Bolshevik nation, and we're better because of it, maybe it's the same case with independence for Scotland, maybe it's independence with a small i, and really it'll be a major shake up of British politics.

 

[Embattle]

I don't view either outcome as bad personally, although with those further devo powers going to Scotland in the event of a No outcome it did slide back a bit since I consider it'll cause issues elsewhere. If they vote yes I wonder how much hardball the government will actually play with regards to ship building, currency etc. because lets face it even if they vote no Salmond will try again some time.

 

[Zarjazz]

I put voting YES just to change how politics works (it won't make any difference) at the same level I'd vote NO just to see the tears on Salmonds face

Even if I don't agree with Big G's vote I appreciate he's actually thought about it *a lot* so good luck whatever happens. In the end I don't live there, haven't lived day to day under the immense social pressure and I don't understand either sides arguments well enough so who am I to judge.

 

[Hawkwind]

On the back of said negativity, it all kicked off when the banks said "we're moving our registered headquarters as part of a legal entity move" which was seized upon by Better Together as "vote Yes and banks will shut shop, move to England and you'll lose your job". It spread on Twitter and the BBC like a wildfire when noone asked the simple question "erm, where are Lloyds' headquarters? They're in London already? oh.... so why are Better Together saying they're moving to England?". It was just the beginning of a flood of lies.

So instead voted for the paragons of truth....bit of a one sided analysis regards the truth. Both side have been pretty poor but from the Yes side I've seen nothing but lies or made up crap.

It was not the HQ's - For instance. Lloyds moving the TSB not Lloyds themselves, as well as the incorporation registration. TSB move because it would have affected the flotation value. Even the Daily Fail got that right! So did the BBC Its the joint ownership of the Lloyds Bank name which caused confusion regards incorporation.
While most of the banks changing domicile (Tesco, TSB, Clydesdale??) are doing so for tax certainties rather than leave it to chance. Basic business sense in a volatile market. The question of jobs is more difficult. Take Bank of Scotland 81% owned by UK government. I can see the jobs for much of back end moving south, branches unaffected. If you really believe the UK tax payers will allow those jobs to stay in iScot then I think you vastly underestimate the retribution that the UK electorate will demand. Its going to be a messy, ugly and bitter divorce!

 

[Hawkwind]

I put voting YES just to change how politics works (it won't make any difference) at the same level I'd vote NO just to see the tears on Salmonds face .

Probably tears of relief, not having to actually deliver on all the promises he's made!

 

[old.user4556]

stuff!

I could go on, and on, and on with analytical detail of both Yes and No, but I had to draw a line which I've tried hard to summarise in the above paragraphs.

 

[Hawkwind]

I could go on, and on, and on with analytical detail of both Yes and No, but I had to draw a line which I've tried hard to summarise in the above paragraphs.

Fair enough Your vote, your choice. Also, a difficult thing to analyse overall. One thing can guarantee from politicians whoever they are, lies with just a slither of truth thrown in to make it look feasible!

 

[DaGaffer]

Both sides have lied (a lot), but hey, that's politicians for you. Problem is that the consequences of the Yes lies are far more potentially damaging to the Scots than the consequences of the No lies.

 

[old.Osy]

Well, not like the British Empire will shy away from invading again

 

[DaGaffer]

Well, not like the British Empire will shy away from invading again

The British Empire didn't invade in the first place. Read a book sometime.

 

[Embattle]

Well, not like the British Empire will shy away from invading again

The Scots were utterly broke through the misguided darien adventure.

 

[old.user4556]

The British Empire didn't invade in the first place. Read a book sometime.

Haha. I hate you Gaff, but I love you.

@old.Osy :



Re the referendum, just reading that it's an 80% turnout already

 

[Gwadien]

Re the referendum, just reading that it's an 80% turnout already

Holy shit, that's quite impressive.

 

[Litmus]

I hope they all vote Yes

 

[Bodhi]

It was a very long, difficult and emotional decision. Call me gay, but I was choked with tears as I left the polling booth - a few of us have been that way today. I started off an absolute No, within the past two months I started to entertain some of the Yes discussions and then within the past week I changed my mind.

I am a big believer in the Scottish Parliament and I've always wanted more power to come to Holyrood, but as part of the UK. Independence seemed like a massive step too far to me, but over the past two years one thing has become clear - it was not independence. It was some sort of quasi Devolution Maximus, or 'Independence Lite'. I thought I could perhaps see the value or possibility of a Yes vote, but ultimately it would be swapping a union at Westminster with a union at Brussels but with the bonus of all the levers of power we need at Holyrood.

Over the past three months I was waiting for the politicians at Westminster to come up with a rival offer, or a proposal for further devolved powers but it was not forthcoming. It felt that Westminster were not interested in fighting to keep Scotland inside of the UK, probably because the polls suggested a No vote. That all changed about two weeks ago when the first poll came out suggesting that Yes took the lead and suddenly three of the most distrusted millionaire politicians came to Scotland and proceeded to talk complete and utter bollocks in the most patronising fashion imaginable. In addition to that, Better Together changed strategy completely across the TV and social media channels. Instead of a vision of being stronger, better and progressive Scotland, they started siding with threats and fears of the pro-Union campaigners. We moved from "we're stronger together!" to "vote Yes, and there will be higher taxes / higher food prices / no jobs / companies will leave in droves / the banks will shit / you won't have any more sex" - it was just a relentless campaign of doom, gloom, disaster and negativity. The Better Together that I so truly believe in to promote strength just became part of the Tory smearing.

On the back of said negativity, it all kicked off when the banks said "we're moving our registered headquarters as part of a legal entity move" which was seized upon by Better Together as "vote Yes and banks will shut shop, move to England and you'll lose your job". It spread on Twitter and the BBC like a wildfire when noone asked the simple question "erm, where are Lloyds' headquarters? They're in London already? oh.... so why are Better Together saying they're moving to England?". It was just the beginning of a flood of lies.

John "two jags" Prescott, Gordon Brown, Nick "two faced" Clegg and David Cameron sealed the deal with their utterly desperate and insincere offers of extra powers that Louise Mensch tweeted about basically saying "no fucking chance" and were seized upon by Tory backbenchers. The Barnett formula will be reviewed and it's a simple case that if Westminster cut the block grant to Scotland, then it is Holyrood that are responsible to raise taxes to cover the shortfall. In short, my favoured option of Devo Max looked less appealing by the day as politicians on both sides of the border turned up the heat on the Westminster proposals.

I've always respected Sir Tom Devine who was a "No, but Devo Max please" much like myself but he too, like me, switched to Yes. He made a point last night on the TV that I agree with - this is the start of the unravelling of The Union, if it's not Yes tomorrow, it'll be Devo Min but ultimately independence is inevitable as outlined in the West Lothian Question.

Finally, supplementary to the above paragraph, there was an English born and raised Yes voter on the same TV programme (still retained his accent) and had lived in Scotland for the past couple of years. His truly believed that Yes would change politics for all of us, probably for the better including the English and Westminster. That ties in with what I hear from my English colleagues - the London-centric politics doesn't work for a lot of them and they indeed want to see change. A Yes vote could lead the way for a genuine political revolution across these islands.

Please - do not think that I've taken this lightly. It's not about "FREEEDOM", or oil, or shortbread tin visions of Scotland. This was a very, very tough decision. I don't like Salmond, Sturgeon or the SNP. I didn't vote for them. I voted for change.

Too late to edit my post, but, on reflection, I think I may have been a bit harsh on you G old bean, fair play on taking a reasoned decision in a debate that seems very short on reason from down here. Think I let the frustration of not being allowed a say in the future of my country get the better of me. I may not agree with your reasoning, but I will happily defend your right to reason. I just hope that, whichever way we vote, all the pettiness and intimidation is put to one side, and we can get on with being the UK/iScotland.

 

[Bodhi]

Well, not like the British Empire will shy away from invading again

The British Empire definitely won't as Gaff has quite rightly put you in your place about. But the US Empire? Let me see, new country, no real defence forces or currency, but with nukes and a shitload of oil off the coast? Be afraid...be very afraid.

(Please note some of the above may be tongue in cheek)