Politics Scottish Independance.....Thoughts?

[DaGaffer]

It's politics man, both sides spout shit desperately, thing is, it seems the Yes Campaign is a lot more vocal in Scotland, so they're covering up their shit, with the No campaigns shit, which seems to be working beautifully.

I just hope people don't vote because of one campaign managing to lie more convincingly than the other

I know that, but G seems to be more offended by the No stuff than the Yes stuff, which I have to say, comes from this aspect of the Scottish persona more than anything else:

 

[Gwadien]

I know that, but G seems to be more offended by the No stuff than the Yes stuff, which I have to say, comes from this aspect of the Scottish persona more than anything else:

I wasn't responding to you, I was responding to G tbh.

 

[Job]

What's being ignored for me is the sectarian conflicts behind the voting...all Police leave has been cancelled and they are on standby in case all hell breaks loose..
What is to stop Scotland descending into a civil cold war.

 

[Corran]

Simple thing is I will vote No. Why? Because the Yes team has not got their house in order.

How can you vote for change when they don't even know what that will involve. Come back to me in 5yrs time when you have done negotiations and know:

1) What money you will use.
2) What will be the status on the EU
3) What assets you will hold
4) What initial tax rates will be
5) What the benefit system will be like
etc
etc

Sorry but I will not vote for a change which is basically like being put in a dark room, given a dart, spun around 300 times and then asked to throw a bullseye!

edit:
Oh the other reason I wont vote yes. Do many complete cocks want a yes vote and hound anyone that dare to say they vote no. So many reports of NO voters having their houses and vehicles vandalised (One person that wife knows said their neighbour had a No sign on their car, went out one morning and found YES carved into the paintwork). Hardly hear anything about YES voters having their stuff vandilised.

Salmond, the known nationalist terrorist in his youth (they done a good job covering that up btw), has his fellow yes voters acting like the complete trash most them are! No wonder he wanted the 16yr old idiots to be allowed to vote. Only way to win

 

[Tom]

By Martin Wolf

A Yes vote will launch Scotland, and to a lesser extent the UK, into years of uncertainty. Among the biggest doubts are those hanging over the currency. Financial businesses that must be regulated and supported by the UK will flee. Scottish deposit insurance would be as worthless as the Reykjavik-run scheme that failed to cover Icelandic banks in 2008. Cautious Scots must already recognise that the pounds in their bank accounts may end up as something else. Far safer to move the money south.

Confronted with currency uncertainty, banks will need to balance their books within Scotland. This will surely force them to shrink the supply of credit to the Scottish economy. The UK government could try to prevent money from leaving Scotland, but this would require draconian controls, which it will not impose. Either Westminster or the Scottish government could offer to indemnify lenders against currency risks. The UK government will not do that. It will let the credit squeeze happen, blaming it on the Scottish decision. It will be Scotland’s choice, if it can meet the cost.

Scotland can promise that the pound will remain the currency of Scotland. It cannot promise a currency union, however. That takes two parties. Even if the government of the remaining UK is prepared to countenance such a union, there should be a referendum. The only satisfactory terms for the residual UK will be ones that impose very tight limits on the fiscal deficits Scotland can run. It must also insist that financial regulation will be run by the Bank of England, which would nonetheless remain accountable to the UK state alone. Scotland can adopt the pound without a currency union, and so without the back-up of the Bank of England. But this, too, is highly problematic. Scotland would need to build a reserve of sterling that can serve as its monetary base – by attracting capital inflows or exporting more than it sells abroad for many years. And it would need more than that. If the eurozone crisis has taught us anything, it is that countries without central banks cannot, in a crisis, stabilise the markets for their public debt. Scotland’s share of UK public debt would amount to more than 90 per cent of its gross domestic product – a perilous position for a country whose debt is denominated in a currency it cannot create freely. Ireland, Portugal and Spain all had far lower public debt ratios before the crisis. Scotland will need a substantial reserve cushion . Accumulating it will be costly.

Alex Salmond, Scotland’s first minister and head of the Yes campaign, will say that if the rest of the UK will not grant Scotland a currency union, Scotland will not take on its share of the UK debt. Not so fast: the negotiations launched by that Yes vote will cover everything. The oil, for example, is not Scottish until the UK agrees. If Scotland repudiates its share of the debt, who says it will get “its” oil? All this ignores the little fact that Scotland wants to be in the EU. If it does enter (which Spain will surely seek to prevent lest it encourage Catalonian separatists), it might be forced to join the exchange rate mechanism from the beginning. It would then need its own currency and central bank. It could not persist with sterling. Any such shift away from sterling raises big questions. In what currency will existing assets and liabilities be denominated? How will any redenomination occur? What will happen to the currency denomination of the pensions and all other state payments due to Scots?

These negotiations will be complex, bitter and prolonged. However amicably a divorce begins, that is rarely how it ends. It is the safest possible bet that when this process is over, the English will resent the people who repudiated them and the Scots will resent the people who did not give them independence on the terms to which they believed they were entitled. A United Kingdom will give way to a deeply divided island.

The Scots will discover the taste of austerity. Scotland cannot sustain higher taxes than the residual UK; that would drive economic activity away. It will pay a higher interest rate on public debt because its government will be unfamiliar and dependent on unstable oil revenues (almost certainly smaller than Mr Salmond imagines). Fiscal fibs will be exposed.* *By then it will be too late. If the vote is a Yes, it will be forever. But what about a narrow No? That too will be a nightmare. We could then look forward to more referendums. I would have preferred a clean break to that. If Scotland cannot decide firmly in favour of union, let it choose “independence”. And then, enjoy!"

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/67017a0a-390d-11e4-9526-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3DIRFOrgJ

 

[old.user4556]

What's being ignored for me is the sectarian conflicts behind the voting...all Police leave has been cancelled and they are on standby in case all hell breaks loose..
What is to stop Scotland descending into a civil cold war.

Job, it's time to stop posting. Seriously, I was entertaining your nonsense for a while, but you're just trolling now.

Why is negative bullshit any less valid than positive bullshit? If anything the positive stuff is worse because its a more insidious lie.

Let me give you an example (of which there are many)

A piece of Yes bullshit would be:

"A Yes vote gives Scotland the financial levers to create a fairer Scotland" or "a Yes vote gives Scotland the financial levers for job creation".

Whilst in what they say is factually correct (we will get full economical control), however who's to say it's going to create more jobs? And a fairer Scotland? for whom exactly? It's bullshit, but optimistic bullshit.​

A piece of No bullshit would be:

The fact - "banks to move their registered head office / legal entity to London"

The No bullshit - "ZOMGS THE BANKS ARE ALL MOVING OFFICES AND JOBS TO ENGLAND - VOTE NO IF YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR JOB" which then perpetuates around the Better Together social media where it becomes a cast iron fact.
​

I know that, but G seems to be more offended by the No stuff than the Yes stuff, which I have to say, comes from this aspect of the Scottish persona more than anything else:

You do realise I'm half English with a load of family in London? You do realise that I was working between London and Edinburgh right? I have absolutely no allegiance to Scotland, but I do have say in this referendum and it would be ridiculous to not seriously consider both arguments / situations.

 

[old.user4556]

Simple thing is I will vote No. Why? Because the Yes team has not got their house in order.

How can you vote for change when they don't even know what that will involve. Come back to me in 5yrs time when you have done negotiations and know:

1) What money you will use.
2) What will be the status on the EU
3) What assets you will hold
4) What initial tax rates will be
5) What the benefit system will be like
etc
etc

Sorry but I will not vote for a change which is basically like being put in a dark room, given a dart, spun around 300 times and then asked to throw a bullseye!

edit:
Oh the other reason I wont vote yes. Do many complete cocks want a yes vote and hound anyone that dare to say they vote no. So many reports of NO voters having their houses and vehicles vandalised (One person that wife knows said their neighbour had a No sign on their car, went out one morning and found YES carved into the paintwork). Hardly hear anything about YES voters having their stuff vandilised.

Salmond, the known nationalist terrorist in his youth (they done a good job covering that up btw), has his fellow yes voters acting like the complete trash most them are! No wonder he wanted the 16yr old idiots to be allowed to vote. Only way to win

The way I compared it is that imagine this:

- you own a car, that car works for you and it's reasonably affordable. Infact, it's actually the best car you've ever owned and you're pretty happy with it. However, you get a special invite to get a whole brand spanking new car, but you don't know what it is. You go into the dealership and the salesman says "behind this curtain could be a superb upgrade on your current car, or it might actually be a worn out banger of a car - if you chose to take the car behind the curtain, you cannot change your mind and you're stuck with it". Do you want to swap your car the works, has always worked and will probably always work for something that might be a complete load of shite?

The analogy is that most of us Scots have it pretty damn good. Employment is better than the UK average, much better than most of England and there is the benefits of being part of the UK. It works very well for a lot of people. The Yes campaign is tempting us with the great new Scotland that could be better, yet it could be a lot worse. Noone really knows, it's a huge gamble. So do you throw away your reasonably happy status-quo for it?

Think about it.

 

[old.user4556]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/67017a0a-390d-11e4-9526-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3DIRFOrgJ

Therein lies the whole problem - absolutely nothing is guaranteed and everything is up for negotiation.

I suspect that Trident will continue to live on the Clyde, we just won't be funding it.

 

[Raven]

Civil cold war, I like that.

 

[caLLous]

G, you seem to have picked a very tame bit of Yes bullshit, I'm sure the Yes campaign has pumped out much more bullshitty bullshit than that (I can't think of any at the moment mind).

 

[old.user4556]

I can't be arsed going and digging it out all to justify it to the internetz, it's all out there for people to read.

 

[Krazeh]

Whilst in what they say is factually correct (we will get full economical control), however who's to say it's going to create more jobs? And a fairer Scotland? for whom exactly? It's bullshit, but optimistic bullshit.

But doesn't that ignore the fact that the Yes campaign want a full currency union after independence, which means the Bank of England would still be the central bank? How could Scotland have full economic control when the central bank for their currency is under the control of another country?

 

[DaGaffer]

The way I compared it is that imagine this:

- you own a car, that car works for you and it's reasonably affordable. Infact, it's actually the best car you've ever owned and you're pretty happy with it. However, you get a special invite to get a whole brand spanking new car, but you don't know what it is. You go into the dealership and the salesman says "behind this curtain could be a superb upgrade on your current car, or it might actually be a worn out banger of a car - if you chose to take the car behind the curtain, you cannot change your mind and you're stuck with it". Do you want to swap your car the works, has always worked and will probably always work for something that might be a complete load of shite?

The analogy is that most of us Scots have it pretty damn good. Employment is better than the UK average, much better than most of England and there is the benefits of being part of the UK. It works very well for a lot of people. The Yes campaign is tempting us with the great new Scotland that could be better, yet it could be a lot worse. Noone really knows, it's a huge gamble. So do you throw away your reasonably happy status-quo for it?

Think about it.

Except you missed a bit... "behind this curtain could be a superb upgrade on your current car, or it might actually be a worn out banger of a car - if you chose to take the car behind the curtain, you cannot change your mind and you're stuck with it forever"

 

[ECA]

I want no to win now, just to piss off the loony tunes incessant whining brigade online.
The meltdown will be more fun to watch.

( Nobody here, the twitter/facebook/etc brigade ).

It's more annoying than the royal baby bullshit. Just fuck off and shut up already.

 

[old.user4556]

Except you missed a bit... "behind this curtain could be a superb upgrade on your current car, or it might actually be a worn out banger of a car - if you chose to take the car behind the curtain, you cannot change your mind and you're stuck with it forever"

That's what "stuck with it" means.

But doesn't that ignore the fact that the Yes campaign want a full currency union after independence, which means the Bank of England would still be the central bank? How could Scotland have full economic control when the central bank for their currency is under the control of another country?

Already discussed on this thread.

 

[DaGaffer]

That's what "stuck with it" means.

I really don't think people are making that connection. At all.

 

[Corran]

what ever happens, half the population is going to be completely pissed off. That is not good for a country!

I know that in the case of a yes vote, I got under 2 years to decide if staying in Scotland is a good or not. Problem is if the wifes family dont move away, then I doubt we will move either.

 

[Gwadien]

what ever happens, half the population is going to be completely pissed off. That is not good for a country!

I know that in the case of a yes vote, I got under 2 years to decide if staying in Scotland is a good or not. Problem is if the wifes family dont move away, then I doubt we will move either.

Well, if no prevails, I don't think people will be that pissed off, because nothings changed, but if yes wins, then there'll be an exodus


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv584jRwh0s


Tell the Mrs I said ello btw

 

[Scouse]

what ever happens, half the population is going to be completely pissed off. That is not good for a country!

Half the country is already pissed off and a no vote means that won't have a chance of changing.

A yes vote means something could change. For better or worse. What it doesn't mean is that half the country will remain pissed off - it may go 70/30, for example, either way.

If it goes 70/30 bad then you'll have a small enough government and an engaged enough population to vote in different changes - if you stay with Westminster rule you're guaranteed half the country will remain pissed off and disenfranchised...

 

[megadave]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/67017a0a-390d-11e4-9526-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3DIRFOrgJ

Would certainly like to hear a YES response to that.

 

[DaGaffer]

Half the country is already pissed off and a no vote means that won't have a chance of changing.

A yes vote means something could change. For better or worse. What it doesn't mean is that half the country will remain pissed off - it may go 70/30, for example, either way.

If it goes 70/30 bad then you'll have a small enough government and an engaged enough population to vote in different changes - if you stay with Westminster rule you're guaranteed half the country will remain pissed off and disenfranchised...

You'll get change alright, Nigel fucking Farage and a rise of English nationalism. Fucked politics will continue to be fucked, just in more extreme ways; there are no white knights coming to change things for the better, because the outside world, globalization, America, China, the Middle East, all continue to exist.

 

[Job]

Salmond wants a million immigrants to solve the problem of an ageing population and no one prepared to do menial work...I just don't see how this is going to rest easy with the xenophobic nationalists who are backing him.

 

[Scouse]

You'll get change alright, Nigel fucking Farage and a rise of English nationalism. Fucked politics will continue to be fucked, just in more extreme ways; there are no white knights coming to change things for the better, because the outside world, globalization, America, China, the Middle East, all continue to exist.

That's a shocking lack of faith in Scotland's people's abilities to self-govern. Increased democracy not good enough eh?

Short-term I reckon you could see a rise in shocking right-wing-ism. But even if so I think people would clue pretty quickly and vote a different way..

 

[Job]

Well, if no prevails, I don't think people will be that pissed off, because nothings changed, but if yes wins, then there'll be an exodus


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nv584jRwh0s


Tell the Mrs I said ello btw

Exodus or partition..you can flip me off all you like but the news is awash with warnings from idiots and academics alike of re igniting sectaranism in Scotland...this ones a bit over the top but I believe there's a truth in it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...a-harsh-lesson-from-across-the-Irish-Sea.html

 

[DaGaffer]

That's a shocking lack of faith in Scotland's people's abilities to self-govern. Increased democracy not good enough eh?

Short-term I reckon you could see a rise in shocking right-wing-ism. But even if so I think people would clue pretty quickly and vote a different way..

Actually my lack of faith is in England. But tbh the blame game is going to make for pretty grim politics in Scotland as well.

 

[Olgaline]

The sense I keep getting when listening to the english on scottish independence


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNDl41HfvxI

 

[Scouse]

this ones a bit over the top but I believe there's a truth in it.

Scaremongering from the torygraph tbfh.

Actually my lack of faith is in England.

All the more reason for them to vote yes and attempt to fix it themselves by hook or crook tbfh.

 

[Raven]

Give it five years and voter apathy will have kicked back in again and it will be the same self serving set of bastards in charge.

Fixed

 

[Scouse]

Fixed

Disagree. Voter apathy in England is because there's zero chance of meaningful change. In an independent scotland then meaningful change on a large scale would be up for grabs.

 

[Raven]

haha, no.