SB rant again, thx buffbots.

[dath]

Well, everyone talks about zerkers etc. But for my SZ this is going to be too much. I got nothing else I really wish to play, liked my scout but then the US server died. Got family and graduated from university, got no time to go through the level treadmill again. Not sure how sbs with buffbot are going to manage, but basically I am screwd. Ive played with SB unbuffed, solo and put all my ras to things that make me stronger, don't even have see hidden. Its been fun, challenging and my LA styles don't give me too great of an edge as a SB as he was meant to be. It takes me time to kill people, I have good fights with scouts, rangers, and unbuffed assasins. Some weaker tanks are good for me. After this, I'll be able to kill mages, unless they have uber resists, when I don't run into assasins. It's been a challenge, fun one this far but this is just too much. Been playing fair and square but it doesn't pay it seems. Really wish they left SB's out of this, but they can't since we have peeps with buffbots, who have given twisted picture of what SB really should be able to do. Don't know who I should thank for this, Mythic for making buffbots viable or people using em.

Please save the one liners or flames, whines and don't say anything about cheese, I hate that. Got long day at work and I'm depressed.

 

[K0nah]

u could always try speccing the CS line, u know that one u have 2-10 points in... the gimped line, the one u have to use from stealth...

 

[dath]

Ah yes, the CS line. The line that to be effective needs the server be lagless, the enemy to run in straight line near road with stupid smile on his face and preferably alone


Seriously, I don't get this. Why nerf and not give to others. Taking away is never a good thing, but I bet hibs and albs would be totally happy if they were given more and mids not fucked up. I put so many hours to making this char, like many others did to theirs and it just feels... wrong that essential part is taken away rather than others are increased. Its just twisted logic. Why make some people unhappy when you can keep all reasonably happy. Hard to belive its been thought through.

I allready been told to get a life because I whine about this, its only a game etc. Go out and so on. Well thats nice. I actually have a life. Family, work and sports daily. Get to play few hours at night. The game is a hobby, and makin lvl 50is with limited time on your hands is pretty hard. I don't like to have my hobbies nerfed, like if someone came along at karate lessons and broke my arm so I couldn't use it in the future, I'd be pretty unhappy about the prospects for me in that hobby. Same with Daoc. This to the person asking me to get a life. Mayby he should go talk to a shrink.

 

[Ebonn]

LA did need toning down.. but from the logs ive seen so far i think like with all things Mythic do... they went to far. the damage seems seems not much higher than Nightshades atm but ofc you dont get the uber dd's or the nice RA's, and you must spec LA highish to get good returns. dont despair just yet though Mythic has been known to change things a lot during testing.

 

[Runolaz]

Aye...if the 30-40% less dmg is the rigth figure then it in effect this destroys the possiblilty of specccing as a SZ if you don't have a buffbott. I dunno how you other guys spec your SC template, but I go for max qui/dex for evade and spd for landing styles like Comback-Frosty Gaze.

I don't use DF when I'm solo anymore, cuz 4 of those and I'm ooe, so I use Snowblinde as backup for Comback. Going arround as a unbuffed SZ after this is IMO not viable. Unbuffed I hit an INF for arround (with DF) 180-210 now, in 1.62 that will be 117-137. Taking that vs Inf/Ns with str/dex weapons/Dragonfang and them outdmging us with much higher swingrate at about the sam dmg = very dead SZ...effectly making it no point speccing as one. The figths I have with NS/INF (at my RR +-1) even though I'm specced (IMHO) as an assassin killer are very close...I win some I loose some, but with 30-40% less dmg I'm dead 80% of the time .

I was hoping they were looking more into the qui aspect of LA. In such a way that those that go for low qui are those doing less dmg in %, but they went the easy way I think and left qui out of it again i quess

 

[Belomar]

I guess it's people like you, Dath, who are the victims of a nerf like this, whereas the ubah kiddies who made it happen in the first place (by each rolling a zerker) will just shrug it off and either quit or roll another FotM class (like the Savage) and happily continue using their buffbot. And yes, I feel sorry for you and the others like you, but I have very little sympathy for those bandwagon jumpers who are now whining the loudest and most fervently.

Originally posted by dath
Ah yes, the CS line. The line that to be effective needs the server be lagless, the enemy to run in straight line near road with stupid smile on his face and preferably alone

Well, in both other realms, the CS line is what assassins have to rely on to give them their edge. If you think about it, it's silly that an assassin should be able to outmelee a tank, the strength and weakness of an assassin is the fact that they have to strike from stealth in order to get an edge.

 

[bewal]

Well its either CS or poisons, for me its poisons to debuff and poison them. Can't have both. I do know however how little CS can give you these days unless you are buffed to meet high SC suits etc.

I really never rolled SB to be uber or leet with him, didn't do it because others said that they are rp machines. So didn't jump into any bandwagon. I just genuily like to play an assasin due to not having to find groups and surviving where most get zerged. It ok with me to not be uber tank so long I can hold y own. Can't see how thats going to happen now, since at present most my fights can go either way. Been playing the game since day one it came out in US and have several chars that can't compete due to "new" things. Just pisses me off.

 

[- Fedaykin -]

Well all i can say then is you brought the guillotine down upon your own heads with your excessive buffbotting.

now i might be able to last about 2 swings of salurm's axe longer

although im planning on quitting in a few weks so i'll never see these changes

 

[bewal]

Originally posted by - Fedaykin -
Well all i can say then is you brought the guillotine down upon your own heads with your excessive buffbotting.

now i might be able to last about 2 swings of salurm's axe longer

although im planning on quitting in a few weks so i'll never see these changes

I agree, those people who figured they be uber with buffbots ruined much of the fun for people like me.

PS. Im dath btw, machines in work are screwd up, only this old nick works...

 

[Snake.ster]

Welcome too the world of the scout.

 

[dath]

Thx, I had rr 6 scout at MLF so think I know its probs. Im talking about sb's here.

 

[Gethin]

Im sick of having over half my hp taken in one hit by a SB and being dead before i can react.

And you say you arent overpowered!

Before you say u must be gimped, i have 26 resists to all melee resists (29 slash with racial added), a ton of hp when buffed and 50 shield spec and it makes absolutely no difference.

/Gratz mythic on a great fix, it's about fucking time.

Gethin
Master Scout

 

[dath]

Originally posted by Gethin
Im sick of having over half my hp taken in one hit by a SB and being dead before i can react.

And you say you arent overpowered!

Before you say u must be gimped, i have 26 resists to all melee resists (29 slash with racial added), a ton of hp when buffed and 50 shield spec and it makes absolutely no difference.

/Gratz mythic on a great fix, it's about fucking time.

Gethin
Master Scout

Care to read the whole thread, Im talking about sbs that ARENT buffed, no unbuffed one can do that.

 

[dath]

doublepost

 

[skile]

Heh, I don't understand SB's attitude. Since when should they be able to KILL targets not solo? No they shouldn't. Since when should they just sprint up to a target and gank it melee without any stealthstyle done, it's wrong. To kill someone as an assasin it should take good patience and doing the exact right thing, CS-spec is what a assasin IS, not a zerker.

 

[dath]

In that case they shouldn't have given the option to choose between poison or CS.

 

[vintervargen]

You do know the LA style bonuses was a bug?

check http://home.nc.rr.com/obsidianguard/wyrd/Styles.htm and compare for yourself, anyway

It's not over til the fat woman sings.

 

[Gethin]

Originally posted by dath
Care to read the whole thread, Im talking about sbs that ARENT buffed, no unbuffed one can do that.

I did read the whole thread and it has happened to me(admittedly not all the time).

I last all of 15 seconds longer against an unbuffed one. If im lucky i might get a slam off and possibly 2 arrows (assuming i dont fumble or miss).

You are badly overpowered and have been found out, scouts had to take a ton of nerfs, now its your turn.

Gethin
Master Scout

 

[dath]

Hey, I know archer pain, had one when Daoc was young as Ive said before. Would still if the damn server had not died next to nothing.

 

[nightsorrow]

when daoc was young archers were uber, right?

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Runolaz
Aye...if the 30-40% less dmg is the rigth figure then it in effect this destroys the possiblilty of specccing as a SZ if you don't have a buffbott. I dunno how you other guys spec your SC template, but I go for max qui/dex for evade and spd for landing styles like Comback-Frosty Gaze.

It doesn't destroy them, unless your definition of destroy is to bring down to the level of other assassin builds. Why is it that the Critblade has been thought of as a gimp spec for so long? Well, in comparison to a SZ, or high RR 5-spec, the damage pales. This is not balanced, this is not correct.

Originally posted by dath
Ah yes, the CS line. The line that to be effective needs the server be lagless, the enemy to run in straight line near road with stupid smile on his face and preferably alone

Well, actually what you mean is in order to take out an even-con tank you need it to be lag-free, and him to be solo, etc. In order to kill casters, archers and support chars you don't neccessarily require this.


In my opinion, assassins are not supposed to be easy to play. You are not supposed to be able to step out at level 50 after being power-levelled there in a week and be able to beat 80% of the opponents you face. In order to play an assassin you are supposed to have skill, timing, knowledge, and above all, patience.

This is what was required for an assassin to be successful 6-9 months ago before patch 1.50 threw any kind of balance straight out the window. Playing an assassin in 1.45 or earlier was TOUGH. There were so many bugs in the classes, they were so underpowered that it was TOUGH. 1.46 fixed a whole swathe of bugs, gave boosts to poisons, spec points, hit points for SBs and DDs for NSs. So for 3 months or so playing on 1.48 assassins were challenging to play, and rewarding when played well.


1.50 brought realm abilities, which completely screwed my favoured style of play (patient, unbuffed duo with a minstrel).


1.50 also brought boosts to LA (double style damage). Prior to 1.50, almost all SBs were CS-specced, SZ was considered as gimped, the only style in the LA line which did high damage was Doublefrost due to it being bugged. This was also fixed in 1.50 so DF was no longer the only style to touch in the LA line.


So why has it been only recently that LA has got so many complaints/whines/calls for nerfing? Well, changes like this take time to filter through, it takes time for what people consider 'general knowledge' to change (SZ doesn't go from being considered gimped, to being considered teh ubah overnight), it takes time for people to level up characters, it takes time for the population balance to shift.


By the time respecs hit the EU servers in 1.52, it was widely known that SZ builds were far better than CS builds, so virtually all respecced to at least moderate LA. At this point the population of level 50 assassins began to rise sharply.


So, all these newly-levelled assassins are out. They realise that actually an assassin tends to die quite a lot, tends to not be able to get rezzed due to being away from everyone else, tends to spend a long time porting, walking very slowly, etc. Everyone has a tolerance level for what percentage of time playing the game that can be counted as active....

So, you feel you die too much? Don't get enough kills? So you get buffed, etc... Vicious circle, now there's far too many assassins with the majority of them perma-buffed.

Myself, I decided that it was no longer viable to solo unbuffed at around R6L4 after about 10 ports in a row dying with no rps to multiple buffed SBs camping apk-amg. So I got a bot myself and obviously thing were better after that.





Errr.... so what was my point? Well, my point was that it's not a case of the SZ not being viable unbuffed after LA is nerfed, it's more like the SZ is brought into the same position as the rest of the assassin builds.

Originally posted by dath
Seriously, I don't get this. Why nerf and not give to others. Taking away is never a good thing, but I bet hibs and albs would be totally happy if they were given more and mids not fucked up. I put so many hours to making this char, like many others did to theirs and it just feels... wrong that essential part is taken away rather than others are increased. Its just twisted logic. Why make some people unhappy when you can keep all reasonably happy. Hard to belive its been thought through.

The reason LA is being nerfed is plainly obvious. It does far too much damage. Far more damage than any other line. It's not a question of 'fucking up mid'. Midgard can already be considered fucked up when 50% of people are playing 8% of classes as their mains.

When 1 weapon skill line is incorrectly doing twice the damage of any other skill line in the game something needs to be done to balance this. As you say, this could be done in two ways.

1) Nerf LA
2) Boost others

How would you boost the others though? Well, you'd have to double the damage of all other melee lines. So now every tank is able to regularly hit for 800 a swing with a 1h weapon, and 1200 with a 2h.

This turns the whole of RvR into 1/2-shots, so to counter that, every class needs to have their HP doubled.

Now PvE is unbalanced further, so all MOBs need to hit twice as hard and have double the HPs, etc.


So, which option would you really take?


---------------------------------

Anyway, my opinion is that LA changes were 100% required, and they were required several months ago. I also know there are many other things in the game which require changes/fixes. And actually, 1.62 looks like it is addressing several of them.

Good patch, can't wait.




(Now I'm off to lunch.... it seems I tend to ramble a lot when I have an empty stomach )

 

[aavarn]

Agree almost wholeheartedly with Pin. Mythic have said it is their intent to force SBs back to requiring skill, patience and cunning to play - the way an assassin should be played.

Being able to appear as if from nowhere and use a no positional style to obliterate your opponent seems a tad overpowered.

Assassins should NOT be able to solo tanks toe-to-toe in melee.

However if they are nerfing SBs in this way they seriously need to take a look at Infils whose dmg and ability to take on tanks in pure melee (not talking about snaring and stealh-kiting) seems heavily unbalanced, although again this may be a function of the buffbot.

 

[dath]

Well PIn, I agree playing an assasin should be tough, and guess what, nowadays it is tough too when you don't have buffbot. Don't matter much to me if my LA styles are hardhitting when people I need to kill have their hitpoints high up there and usually buffed. That makes it hard for me. Most of my fights are close run things and when you look at deathspams in emain or where ever, it is like 1 to 3 ratio in favour to those who don't worry about what they can or cannot attack. The whole point of my whine was to gripe over the fact that you'd need to get a buffbot for certain now (which I won't) because its more than challenging now for someone who don't have it. Don't matter much if I spec to crit fully now, most of the peeps I manage to wound succesfully I still have to fight down with ordinary styles and when they are buffed 80 % of the time playing a critblade isn't much fun. The hps I took from em with crit still don't make up for their buffed hitpoints, IPs and other ra's. I need my weapon styles and I need em bad. Should I stick to killing mages? No, I dont care about rps as much as cool fights with infs and ns. Thats why I mainly go out there. You can of course ask any current critblade what they think of their chances. It seems that my experience playing this guy of mine is different from those who run to left and right at mtk and start their shammys up. As for playing a critblade, no, its not all what assasin should be. I took the path with poisons, and since we get 2.2 points it does somewhat limit the choices. Using one wepon don't work too well, Im swords and most of those styles get their good followups after a parry or block... I really don't find critbalde to be something I wanted to play, and Im not happy that it seems to be the path Im forced down upon, not because I'd suck at it, because it's not what Im looking for. Yes, I use BS the crit style allmost allways when fighting, so I dont think the patience and skill by pressing followup styles after that would make me much better than what I am now. I sneak, wait and position myself for BSII every time I can and it is fun yes, but I want my poisons. I do the same work as a critblade does every day, I don't run out there and start spammin DF because unbuffed I will die, in fights I need to do 4 or 5 different styles and be alert all the time. OH, I have the patience, I just wanted to be SZ. FIghting with two weapons and be good with em, no matter how unfair the opposition is. (Kiddos enter a flame here).

When you think that nerfing one type of skill is better than boosting many others, you talk of two options. I see more, like mayby meeting up in the middle. It just isn't good to make so many players in one realm look at their chars feeling that this was not what they wanted to play. Like I like the idea of highlevel poisons and zerekres having to respec to.. erm...

Well, Ive had my first real whinesession at BW. Just sick and tired of first making a scout at server that died, then rolling a thane on suggestion from a friend and now getting kicked in the balls because I refuse to get another account in order to have fun (no, fun not being the abililty to kill everyone easily) Ill stfu now. But I still think SB's should have less of an nerf on their LA. (Rest of the kiddos enter another flame here)

 

[Gekul]

Spec crit you say? like infs do yeah? ok lets think about this.

Assuming a similar spec, this would mean similar damage. The shadowblade would hit less with styles but the offhand swings everyround to balance this. But wait, we can't have a similar spec because we're missing .3 spec points per level. This means less weapon, less crit or less LA. Either way Shadowblades are going to be doing less damage.
Infiltrators also have a 9s evade stun! (apparently this was balanced because of LA damage, how is it balanced now eh?). Infiltrators can pick their damage type, they will have higher wepskill in most cases because of this (add to this 50 base is easy to get, so even more wepskill).
So, shadowblades can't pick their damage type, have lower specs (CS, Env, LA or weapon), and don't have an evade stun (we're specced crit now remember). We're specced low in LA, so we're relying on the natural haste effect on LA to bring up our damage to something comparable to an infiltrator.

There's no suprise infiltrators are looking forward to this, in terms of assasins: inf> all after this patch.

 

[dath]

Besides, how often do you get frosty gaze the chained stun style in on an inf? I can count the times with both of my hands. SB evade stun is next to rare with assasins.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by dath
Well PIn, I agree playing an assasin should be tough, and guess what, nowadays it is tough too when you don't have buffbot. Don't matter much to me if my LA styles are hardhitting when people I need to kill have their hitpoints high up there and usually buffed. That makes it hard for me. Most of my fights are close run things

And unbuffed meleer is not supposed to be having evenly matched or 'close run things' with a buffed target. What you are saying is that currently you do okay unbuffed against buffed opponents, whereas any other spec stands little chance. SZ is being brought into line.


This patch does not change the relationship of buffed vs unbuffed people. That disparity already exists and is supposed to be there. What it changes is that currently LA does enough damage to overcome the difference buffs make in a large number of cases. This is unbalanced/overpowered.

Originally posted by dath
When you think that nerfing one type of skill is better than boosting many others, you talk of two options. I see more, like mayby meeting up in the middle. It just isn't good to make so many players in one realm look at their chars feeling that this was not what they wanted to play.

If you take a bit of both and reduce LA damage slightly and boost the rest slightly you still have the same problems. Give a 50% boost to everyone else's melee damage and RvR is too quick. HPs a too low relatively and caster damage looks worse. So raise caster damage and HPs the same rate, same arguments as I gave before.

There was an all-round 35% melee damage reduction many patches ago due to there being too much damage done and RvR being too fast. So damage was reduced across the board, this is what would be then needed. So you part nerf LA, raise everything else then reduce everything again later.

All comes down to the same results in the end.

 

[dath]

Sigh, aye. Well, Ive cried my bit now. What comes to "should not have close run things" with buffed targets, it all depends on me doing the perfect run and them not having lvl 50 buffbot. Theres so many things wrong in the game as it is, pointless RvR not the least part of it nor the buffbots, which was the main theme of this whine, making the difference even greater for some of us. Well, anyways... gotta step away from the game for awhile anyways, holiday coming up. Hope nobody nerfs that or I shall get really cross.

The only thing I know, is that I won't be playing CS SB without a buffbot, i dont mind dying every now and then but I'd rather do it to other peeps. The fact remains: I've yet to meet inf or ns who didn't have an chance against a sb with this LA configuration. I'd play inf any day of the week, but I like my SZ. I don't, however belive in miracles. Imagine if I go critblade AND unbuffed... then the miracle will be needed.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Gekul
Spec crit you say? like infs do yeah? ok lets think about this.

Assuming a similar spec, this would mean similar damage.

The shadowblade would hit less with styles but the offhand swings everyround to balance this. But wait, we can't have a similar spec because we're missing .3 spec points per level. This means less weapon, less crit or less LA. Either way Shadowblades are going to be doing less damage.

Specced 'similarly', the Infiltrator will have 5% higher weaponskill from his extra specpoints allowing for higher damage. This is balanced by the SB having 5% higher hitpoints.

Originally posted by Gekul
Infiltrators also have a 9s evade stun!

No, the Thrust line has a 9s evade-based stun. It is not an inherent class ability.

Originally posted by Gekul
Infiltrators can pick their damage type, they will have higher wepskill in most cases because of this (add to this 50 base is easy to get, so even more wepskill).

You can't have it both ways. Infs choose between Thrust or Slash. Yes, it's a choice. A choice between a stun with a penalty vs SB armour or no stun and a bonus to your armour.

Originally posted by Gekul
We're specced low in LA, so we're relying on the natural haste effect on LA to bring up our damage to something comparable to an infiltrator.

Well, there you get your choices. You have the option of using a 2h weapon as you are high CS specced. Or you have the option of relying on the haste effect bringing the damage up to the same as the Inf (due to the haste effect benefitting you more as you swing both weapons every round).

Originally posted by Gekul
There's no suprise infiltrators are looking forward to this, in terms of assasins: inf> all after this patch.

There's no surprise anyone who isn't a LA user is looking forward to this.


Besides, I didn't roll my assassin to play vs other assassins. You shouldn't be attempting to compare 2 classes on their abilities when fighting each other. The reason you are doing this is just a symptom of overpopulation of the 2 classes.

When I rolled mine and for many months playing it there were virtually no other assassins around. It's only after I had a long break and came back to play in January that I found myself fighting SBs for 90% of my fights.


An assassin is supposed to be a specialised, minority class, not played by 70% of a realms population (at least to BG level).

When I do a /who Emain it really shouldn't be the case that 50% of matches are Infiltrators a lot of the time - and I'm sure you get similar results with SBs.

 

[Runolaz]

First were does all this SZ Uberness come from?? About 80% of the SB's I know of are 5-Specs and latly I've seen a lot of SoulBlades as well. As far as dmg goes INF/NS using CS style outdmg any SB using the same style cuz of thrust weapons.

With all encounters I have had with INF, even with my SZ-spec they are doing nearly the same dmg as me. That includes you Pin hitting me for rougly 250+. A SZ gives up the ability to PA, thuse should have an edge against other assassins that focus more on CS for PA. After 1.62 the way of a SZ is a dead end...there is no point speccing it as an assassin killer if you don't have an edge.

I have both a CB and a SZ, but I find the SZ more fun to play. I still don't get the differnece between using back positional styles like BSII/Snowsqual and using PA, in fact they are even more difficult to land on running targets than a PA. As a SZ I suffer when it comes to taking out mages fast.

It is however fun to read Pin talking about bringing SZ into line with other assassin specs when he in other post clearly stats that he has no problems taking out SB. If it was up to me I would trade my SB skills with that of an INF any day of the week...would you want my SZ skill on your INF??

And for the history of it ppl specced away from both 2H CS --> 5-Spec, it's cuz of Mytic gimping dmg on PA and the removal of "stay-hidden". The CB is IMHO a very vialbe way to spec a SB if you have a buffbott, but unbuffed CB vs unbuffed INF/NS...they sadly don't stand a chance in hell. When full respec came many former SZ went 5-spec too. I when from 5-spec to SZ...something I will enjoy for another 3-4 mounths before 1.62+ hits EU servers.

 

[jox]

...

"SZ is being brought into line." posted by Pin

Hm, brought into line, taste on the words.

I am a sz and I dont feel overpowered. Not a bit.

Me and Pin have been fighting from time to time. And he have even manage to kill me when he dosent use his cs line(he have cs 44 I belive), while I... who have spend ALL my points into axes (43/46) havent been able to outdamage him(we both have lifebane I think). Is that all? no, I have thrustresistant armor. But I still get killed from time to time. Can you even imagine what he would do with chainwearers? This, this is a joke. All I had against 9 sec stun was a heavy doublefrost. Sbs stunstyles is a standing joke comparing to Dragon.

So where are we? Pin, outdamage me from time to time even without using his 44 cs. So except from ripping shadowzerkers to pieces with Dragonfang he can dish out 700+ whit PA when he wants to.

Take a look at Osrim, Sst and this new one Xdi or something, they all have Thrust 50 and Dual Wield 50 and they all hit as hard as I do, hm even harder from time to time. And now they are going to nerf the only advantage we sbs have?

And the ras...I wont even start to talk about the ras...

So why did Mythic nerf us? because most people all over us plays albs...and Mythic rather pleases the wast majorty of whining loosers like Glottis than make a good game.

Shadowbane and SWG here I come...