Savages are overpowered

[Whisperess]

Originally posted by Pandemic
i'm more concerned with what middie class everyone will cry for the next nerf

Healer / Shaman most likely.

 

[nuky]

Originally posted by Puppetmistress
LOL. Tell you what, you buff your skald entirely (like a friar is fully buffed) and we duel. We're both hybrids as you say. Let's see who wins the majority of the fights. My bet is on the skald. So on even terms (= roughly the same buffs) the friar performs less then a skald in melee. Guess who needs a nerf then?

If you're unbuffed and going toe-to-toe against a friar (read: fully buffed melee-hybrid like you) well OFCOURSE you should loose. However Phixi gave me quite a run for my money (bringing me down to 20% hp) while he was unbuffed. Difference is he used his insta-mezz smart, regained some hp and waited for DD timers to come back up and used his backstyle on me for more dmg/end-use.

kinda missing the point - friars can fully self buff themselves and hit like a fking truck after it. a skald (or any other class for that matter) does not have that option. i mean u r saying a savage gets a lot of its strength from his self buffs - well isnt it the same for friars? so it has to be 2 v 1 (skald (or any other hybrid) plys shaman for buffs) to be on par with a friar?

on my shaman i once had a friar smack me for 513, me in chain with capped resists while i ran away from him. (this being on a 'healing' class)

dont get me wrong, play mid, and without a doubt savages are seriously screwed up - they along with bonedancers, infils, friars and chanters need some 'fixing'

(didnt read the whole thread, sorry if i said anything that has already come up etc etc - just my opinion)

 

[BidAccount]

Don't be sily.

A friar is a melee/healer hybrid.

Note the 'melee'.

Buffed, and hasted, they're quite nasty. Not on the same planet as a certain other self buffing melee/hybrid we could name. Buffed skald v buffed friar - my moneys on the skald.

Friars one of the most balanced classes around imo.

 

[Treniel-]

i do love the way the only people defending savages are mid ofc and even sum middies saying they are far to overpowered bring back Zzang imo

 

[dakeyras]

Originally posted by nuky
kinda missing the point - friars can fully self buff themselves and hit like a fking truck after it. a skald (or any other class for that matter) does not have that option. i mean u r saying a savage gets a lot of its strength from his self buffs - well isnt it the same for friars? so it has to be 2 v 1 (skald (or any other hybrid) plys shaman for buffs) to be on par with a friar?

on my shaman i once had a friar smack me for 513, me in chain with capped resists while i ran away from him. (this being on a 'healing' class)

dont get me wrong, play mid, and without a doubt savages are seriously screwed up - they along with bonedancers, infils, friars and chanters need some 'fixing'

(didnt read the whole thread, sorry if i said anything that has already come up etc etc - just my opinion)

The crux of the issue is that you don't see shitloads of high det friars running around creating havoc in group combat. Infils are overpowered and over-populated but have little impact on group combat.

I have a savage and they are great fun to play but I believe that they have to be nerfed, even to the point of being over-nerfed into gimpdom. This is purely because there are just too many being rolled and they have a huge effect on group combat due to the all round package they possess in terms of defence/offence/anti-cc. Nerf hard, get rid of the bandwagoners and then bring back into a balanced state so they are once again a fun class.

Players may say that that would be unfair, and it might be, but the seething masses that are frantically rolling/levelling/rvr'ing savages atm know damn well that a mega swing of the bat is inbound and so they only have themselves to blame if they continue levelling the savage knowing it will be nerfed. They will then whine about the time invested etc but I still see shitloads of /level savages progressing through Thidranki and onwards. It is these players who will probably whine the most.

 

[aonn_elfclomper]

Originally posted by -ag-bometal
All said before,

Savage population will become so big that all other mid tanks will be seldom played...

And then the nerf is imminent...

So all the FOTM-n00bs,

cu after the nerf...

YOU CAN RUN BUT YOU CAN 'T HIDE

it is just the question when.

well i had to roll an savage coz i couldent get a gp as warrior ,,, i dont mind if savages get nerfed to dust ,,, only gives me the joy of playing my warrior again

 

[old.anubis]

Originally posted by dakeyras
I have a savage and they are great fun to play but I believe that they have to be nerfed, even to the point of being over-nerfed into gimpdom. This is purely because there are just too many being rolled and they have a huge effect on group combat due to the all round package they possess in terms of defence/offence/anti-cc. Nerf hard, get rid of the bandwagoners and then bring back into a balanced state so they are once again a fun class.

yes, there are just too many of them, sure

1 Cleric 9,513
2 Shaman 8,085
3 Infiltrator 6,662
4 Paladin 6,536
5 Druid 6,340
6 Healer 5,695
7 Necromancer 5,657
8 Enchanter 5,619
9 Wizard 5,590
10 Bard 5,515
11 Shadowblade 5,194
12 Nightshade 5,046
13 Scout 4,769
14 Friar 4,331
15 Skald 4,231
16 Ranger 4,173
17 Minstrel 3,981
18 Armsman 3,911
19 Hero 3,849
20 Runemaster 3,630
21 Hunter 3,398
22 Mentalist 3,339
23 Warrior 3,261
24 Warden 3,244
25 Thane 3,239
26 Eldritch 3,214
27 Sorcerer 3,008
28 Bonedancer 2,939
29 Spiritmaster 2,759
30 Theurgist 2,734
31 Champion 2,668
32 Berserker 2,628
33 Cabalist 2,350
34 Savage 2,327 <=====
35 Reaver 2,168
36 Mercenary 2,091
37 Blademaster 1,665
38 Valewalker 1,459
39 Animist 1,078

ups, no, even less than cabalists

 

[dakeyras]

Originally posted by old.anubis
yes, there are just too many of them, sure


34 Savage 2,327 <=====


ups, no, even less than cabalists

Now lets consider active chars eh?

Lets compare active savages to active warriors/zerkers/thanes.

Might see a slight change to those figures or how else do you account for all the claws/greaves in rvr?

 

[Rollie]

Originally posted by dakeyras


I have a savage and they are great fun to play but I believe that they have to be nerfed, even to the point of being over-nerfed into gimpdom. This is purely because there are just too many being rolled and they have a huge effect on group combat due to the all round package they possess in terms of defence/offence/anti-cc. Nerf hard, get rid of the bandwagoners and then bring back into a balanced state so they are once again a fun class.

tbh cad this is a poor attitude, yes everyone knows savages are out of hand but to say nerf them to the point of where they are a poor thane simply cause people chose to play them is kinda silly, it wasnt long back you were screaming at us on the ss forums saying savages werent overpowered. We all know they are out of hand but no need to completely gimp a class because alot of people play them.

Savages main problem is quad hits, quad hits happen far too often, they need to be rare but atm they are very common, which causes the class to be so offensive, and remove the 360degree evade arc and the class will be much better in terms of balance.

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by dakeyras
Now lets consider active chars eh?

Lets compare active savages to active warriors/zerkers/thanes.

Might see a slight change to those figures or how else do you account for all the claws/greaves in rvr?

if its from camelotseer, its only the usa servers as the site somehow has no data about the goa servers. And I think its only active players there, but I cant be sure.

Btw seems something weirds if you compare excal (using duskwave) and usa server (using camelotseer).

for example merlin with excalibur . Now either duskwave shows us other data or we have more alts on excalibur than merlin? So I guess duskwave shows us all characters on the server and camelotseer only the ones who have played the last week or something like that.
Anyway for excaliburs data savage is 16th in size (i think) and for us servers they tend to be around 30+. So I guess US players just have less savages running around than here on excal and most nerfs will happen based on US servers not on goa's.

 

[dakeyras]

Originally posted by Rollie
tbh cad this is a poor attitude, yes everyone knows savages are out of hand but to say nerf them to the point of where they are a poor thane simply cause people chose to play them is kinda silly, it wasnt long back you were screaming at us on the ss forums saying savages werent overpowered. We all know they are out of hand but no need to completely gimp a class because alot of people play them.

Savages main problem is quad hits, quad hits happen far too often, they need to be rare but atm they are very common, which causes the class to be so offensive, and remove the 360degree evade arc and the class will be much better in terms of balance.

I still believe it is the grouping of multiple savages with multiple seers that is the problem. Savages were fun and challenging when you were the only savage in the group. And I also believe that level 50 RR1 Savages are pretty balanced. It is cheap RA's and access to det/dr at an early stage that starts to empower the class. The relative power of savages increases exponentially as you rise in RR.

What I suggested above I believe is needed to control demographics. It may be a poor attitude but it is one that works and one that Mythic employs. If Mythic tone a class down slightly to see how it goes it doesn't turn around the population problems. Tweaking can be done when a class is overpowered but not a population concern.

If figures demonstrate that savages are being rolled more than any other class then expect a huge nerf. If they aren't then expect a tweak.

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by dakeyras
I still believe it is the grouping of multiple savages with multiple seers that is the problem. Savages were fun and challenging when you were the only savage in the group. And I also believe that level 50 RR1 Savages are pretty balanced. It is cheap RA's and access to det/dr at an early stage that starts to empower the class. The relative power of savages increases exponentially as you rise in RR.

yes Det overpowers savages, but it does that with all other classes. I dont think taking away pure tanks RA will truly deal why savages are overpowered, but it will surely nerf them and remove them from atleast half the RvR groups.The damage and defence of the savage is to strong or the combination.
Now the savagery line not costing buffed hp and it only costing hp afterwards is something that has to be changed. After that you would need to see if savages still use their dps and haste buff all the time and if their damage is then still above par.

What I suggested above I believe is needed to control demographics. It may be a poor attitude but it is one that works and one that Mythic employs. If Mythic tone a class down slightly to see how it goes it doesn't turn around the population problems. Tweaking can be done when a class is overpowered but not a population concern.

If figures demonstrate that savages are being rolled more than any other class then expect a huge nerf. If they aren't then expect a tweak.

it seems that on the US servers there are way less savages then here, which might be caused partially by what happens on the boards. People here cry nerf savages almost daily and think zerkers are on par/underpowered. So someone deciding which tank class he will start leveling will role a savage. But it might be the same on vnboards, allthough i think people on US servers might pay less attention to them.

 

[Rollie]

Originally posted by dakeyras
I still believe it is the grouping of multiple savages with multiple seers that is the problem.

but this still works very well replacing the savages with zerkers, saying nerf a class cause it contributes to certain setups is kinda silly.

Take away savages 360 degree evade, drop quid/trip hits to the correct % and make self buffs on savage work off shown Hp and the class will be somewhere close to fixed.

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by Rollie
Take away savages 360 degree evade, drop quid/trip hits to the correct % and make self buffs on savage work off shown Hp and the class will be somewhere close to fixed.

triples are around 1% you want it down to 0? Quad are to high yes, but singles to high. Fix the s/d/t/q to what they supposed to be, it will decrease amount of quads. But it wont decrease the damage over time of savages. Off course it will help hib and alb as a having a single and then a quad is more irritating than a double followed up by a triple as the shock is less.

 

[Rollie]

Originally posted by driwen
triples are around 1% you want it down to 0? Quad are to high yes, but singles to high. Fix the s/d/t/q to what they supposed to be, it will decrease amount of quads. But it wont decrease the damage over time of savages. Off course it will help hib and alb as a having a single and then a quad is more irritating than a double followed up by a triple as the shock is less.

quads are the main problem with savages regarding damage output, quad rate is kinda high since almost in every fight savages do a quad hit or 2 which contributes to the whine on here.

 

[dakeyras]

Originally posted by Rollie

Take away savages 360 degree evade, drop quid/trip hits to the correct % and make self buffs on savage work off shown Hp and the class will be somewhere close to fixed.

I disagree here.

I don't think that doing this would achieve anything but make life for savages levelling up harder in PvE.

Hit rates, yes, must be reduced to the intended levels...and there they must stay. DR as an RA should be removed from savages or must not effect triples/quads.

The % of buffed hitpoints is totally and utterly irrelevent. With 4 seers in a group losing say 3x9% of 2300 instead of 3x9% of 1550 just ain't gonna do jack in a sub 30-60 sec fight. This would only impact duels and 1 vs 1.

What will make a difference is to make changes that will impact level 50 rvr savages and the huge increase in relative power from RA's. Remove cheap IP+Purge, DET to 3,6,9 , remove DR or stop it affecting trip/quads. Maybe consider grouping some of the buffs on the same timer.

I still believe that the level 50 h2h savage is a good, successful template for what a light tank should be. RA's just take the class into the stratosphere.

 

[klavrynd]

givf savage on hybrid weaponskill/hp/ra table, evade 1, and take away the interrupt on the taunt!

 

[BidAccount]

1. Drop quad/trip rate to below advertised rates - quads should be rare and exceptional. <2% in my opinion.

2. Place on normal evade, not advanced.

3. Place on hybrid RA table.

Pretty much brings them into line.

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by donttouchpoopy
1. Drop quad/trip rate to below advertised rates - quads should be rare and exceptional. <2% in my opinion.

2. Place on normal evade, not advanced.

3. Place on hybrid RA table.

Pretty much brings them into line.

ok so you want savages to swing less often than they would with same spec in DW/LA/C. Now evade thing i can understand, it is along with the 50% evade abit to much. And why would taking away det and cheap ip/purge fix them? It wont fix their high melee damage nor their defence.

 

[old.anubis]

Originally posted by klavrynd
givf savage on hybrid weaponskill/hp/ra table, evade 1, and take away the interrupt on the taunt!

maybe just delete em as class?
much better solution imo
be reasonable
what will savage do staying in root except for spamming /rude?

 

[ilienwyn]

Originally posted by old.anubis
maybe just delete em as class?
much better solution imo
be reasonable
what will savage do staying in root except for spamming /rude?

Same thing as other tanks, nothing. Oh i forgot, thanes can spame their hammers of lag, champions can debuff or whatever and paladins can... well maybe play around with the chants

 

[Driwen]

Originally posted by ilienwyn
Same thing as other tanks, nothing. Oh i forgot, thanes can spame their hammers of lag, champions can debuff or whatever and paladins can... well maybe play around with the chants

champions have insta DD, thanes got their dds, paladin can still play end chant (which is main reason why is he is in the group). Ok the dd's suck, but the resists will get fixed so they will start doing more damage again. But I think determination is a rotten RA and it should be looked at. As at the moment it controls almost completly which class gets a group and which doesnt (excluding support).

 

[old.anubis]

Originally posted by ilienwyn
Same thing as other tanks, nothing. Oh i forgot, thanes can spame their hammers of lag, champions can debuff or whatever and paladins can... well maybe play around with the chants

other tanks either have determination (=no root) or range spells
what do you suggest for savages?

 

[BidAccount]

Nothing.

You have self buffs.

 

[old.anubis]

nice reply
says it all

cry more then
no point in discussing something

 

[froler-mid]

Originally posted by old.anubis
what will savage do staying in root except for spamming /rude?

sounds fair imo.(should spamm /cry tho)

 

[froler-mid]

Originally posted by klavrynd
givf savage on hybrid weaponskill/hp/ra table, evade 1, and take away the interrupt on the taunt!

just make em have 'hybrid ra's', that's nerf enuff imo ;d

 

[old.anubis]

Originally posted by froler-mid
just make em have 'hybrid ra's', that's nerf enuff imo ;d

you cant just give em hybrid ras
a) make them hybrids, but then you have to redo everything about them, making the class from the scratch
b) leave em as pure tanks but address some of their issues (quads, haste, dps, wtf else people are whinning about)

 

[Rollie]

we all know savages are out of line atm, but seeing some of the suggestions here people arent looking for balance they are looking to kill a class which is sad imho.

 

[vesta]

Originally posted by - Fedaykin -
It's funny how people scream

Working AS Intended shiftoneoneoneexclamationmarkexclamationmark

because we all know that savages are overpowered, and all you fotm savage noobs (yes you know who you are, the people who only rolled a savage to wtfpwn people 24/7) are proof that savages are overpowered,

why else would nearly every person in midgard suddenly all make this character... it's not cos they want to try a new class, it's cos they know they are overpowered and they all want to r0x

well i say:

Fuck them.... Fuck them up their stupid asses.

E.G.

Guardsxmen - rr9 Zerker suddenly "leaves" his char and makes a savage...

and too summarise everything

MIDGARD = EASY MODE

FEDAYKIN - 50 Sorcerer rr6+-
ENGLISH - 50 Infiltrator
and others...

[Proud Member of First Cohort]

Ex-Guildmaster of "Keepers of The Light"


Tell me now. Why do you have an infilt???