Rodel

[Sharkith]

I agree with you about respecting people from other realms etc. but what difference does it make if someone is a nice guy IRL? I only see the actions of people ingame and their behaivour here on FH, so that´s the deciding factors for my evaluation of people. I don´t care whether they´re nice guys or jerks IRL, because I´ll probably never meet them IRL. At the moment, the term "being nice IRL" has a tendency of being abused as some form of double-standard excuse for dodgy actions, something along: "tehehe, yeah, he´s a prick, but that´s ok because I know him".

Just turn it around... imagine someone´s a Saint ingame, good player, always helpful, always polite on FH. Now someone says "yeah but he´s a jerk IRL". Would that change your views of that person? And if not, then why should a "nice IRL" do?

Precisely! It is an attempt to displace the discussion and close it. Its why Censi was totally right to point out that in fact if people are going to try and justify their actions here that this is a dumb way to do it.

There are a few other statments like it 'he pays his subs' is a similar displacement from in game to out of game. Generally speaking these arguments are very immature and poor justifications for behaviour.

 

[Bracken]

Precisely! It is an attempt to displace the discussion and close it. Its why Censi was totally right to point out that in fact if people are going to try and justify their actions here that this is a dumb way to do it.

There are a few other statments like it 'he pays his subs' is a similar displacement from in game to out of game. Generally speaking these arguments are very immature and poor justifications for behaviour.

Who's the nice guy? The "adding noob" who is just getting on and playing the game as they always have done (or even the person who has changed how they play but takes no issue with those who haven't) OR the person who used to play the game a certain way, decided to change and then acts like a **** to anyone who hasn't done the same? For some strange reason I would say the former. The hypocritical gobshite might have the kudos amongst his IRC chums but to me he just looks like a ****.

 

[Theseus]

I agree with you about respecting people from other realms etc. but what difference does it make if someone is a nice guy IRL? I only see the actions of people ingame and their behaivour here on FH, so that´s the deciding factors for my evaluation of people. I don´t care whether they´re nice guys or jerks IRL, because I´ll probably never meet them IRL. At the moment, the term "being nice IRL" has a tendency of being abused as some form of double-standard excuse for dodgy actions, something along: "tehehe, yeah, he´s a prick, but that´s ok because I know him".

Just turn it around... imagine someone´s a Saint ingame, good player, always helpful, always polite on FH. Now someone says "yeah but he´s a jerk IRL". Would that change your views of that person? And if not, then why should a "nice IRL" do?

The thing about respecting ppl from the other realms depends on the view of the player and how they see the game. Ppl like you, Vf, yes even me, have a different view then the ppl that just add on everything.

We tend to play this game because we are competative and want to show ourselves and everyone else that we know how to play our toons. This is why we think about how the other player wants to do the same so we will try not to add or be disrespectful because we expect the same from others.

Then you have the other kind of player , the ones that don't play for the competition but just for fun , those players don't care about what goes on and they just kill all on sight because that is the actual goal that the game was designed for.

A good example is censi, and myself... we used to be the leaders of the Post Mortem stealthzergs, and we had a blast on TS with everyone there just having fun.

Our vision changed when the game went on and the population changed, now we play for the competative side of the game and want to be the best.

You see, alot of ppl on here batter censi because he used to zerg and stuff, but the thing is that he genuinly just changed his point of view and wants other things from the game now then 2 years ago. And you can't deny the fact that when there is a best-of-poll, censi always comes up as the nr1 ranger.

Just my 2cnts though

 

[Bracken]

ppl on here batter censi because he used to zerg and stuff

It's nothing to do with how he used to play, it's because he used to play that way and NOW bitches at anyone who doesnt do the same. There is a huge difference - as I've always said it's not about playstyle it's about attitude.

 

[Theseus]

It's nothing to do with how he used to play, it's because he used to play that way and NOW bitches at anyone who doesnt do the same. There is a huge difference - as I've always said it's not about playstyle it's about attitude.

You have always seemed like an intelligent guy that doesnt get caught up with these childish flamewars that go on here with the above mentioned "arguments".
So let me tell you that I am sure that you understand that he now whines about it because it goes against what he wants from the game NOW (like i explained the 2 different kinds of players to my opinion in my post) and you can't blame him for it because he is only human , and humans get upset about stuff

Some do whine more then other though

 

[ebenezer]

Ow boy A slugfest up and inc and the players in that battle are always the same...and then some trollers that cant discuss that just throws in random insults)

Personally, besides taking the break now for moving and changing my rl a lot,
a break was needed anyway due to how the community look.
I been extremly tired of gettijg caught up between my friends from long and the solo crowd.
I always thought both sides were right and had their stakes it it. However the other sides just doesnt understand the others at all. Its like being caught up in a religeous war between jews and muslims^^ And for some it seems as serious as well lol.

A big difference of the sides will always be that the leet crowd always whine first and loudest and abuse. Something that often makes me hard to take the side for them in a discussion.
Like censi. He is a funny guy. He have some good points sometimes about game.
But when it comes to the adding discussion he is like a blindfolded horse that just goes one direction and one direction only
And not only him ofc....alot of the same from many in his camp.

The "in rl" comment that are flying around like brittney speers "oops i did it again" did over the radio airwaves when it was popular, is the silliest narrowminded shit argument i ever heard.
It also right away classifies themself being the "jerks in rl" which isnt a very smart move. Id be an adder and a shit head in game( playstylewise) then being a shithead in rl anyday of the week.
It ALL boils down to that some take the game too seriously. f they wouldnt....we wouldnt be having these discussions, at least not with this level of maturity.
The argument that was formed cause many people say about a person being acused, that at least they are nice people, are quite a vlid one.
Same as paying subs.
They are just facts whether the other side like it or not.
If the leet camp want a better explenation then that im not sure what more they would get?
A person buying his own game...choose how he wanna play it, and just plays it. Then suddenly get abused and attacked for it. What answer would you give?
"ow ow sorry massa..i must abide by ur rules now and especially since you treat me like shit"!
Many of my friends of old i have to DEFEND when i talk with many leet people, and its almost as if they look at me strangely when i say im friends with horlely, or some other person in cla.
Persons that i known for years....helped me in game with pve...people in rl died and they comforted me, and helped me get through it the way they could...we had laughter and tears with eachother.
Can anyone tell me why i would fucking change that cause he likes to play a FUCKING GAME DIFFERENTLY!!!???????
Fucking clueless idiots are the people that answer yes to that question, and also makes me wonder if they EVER had a friend in rl...cause you dont suddenly stop being a friend of someone, just cause his view differs from urs...
over and out..

 

[Raven]

well i think its more with the fact that when some random moclolercaster gets stick for playing the game with the sole intention of spoiling other peoples fun, the usual people pipe up with "but he is a nice guy irl" bollocks. when people realise its the lame playstyle that is ruining the game and destroying the population. a few people who want to solo/play fg whatever against like minded people and usually do it out of the way of the more populated areas (though of late there is nothing to find away from the usual areas)
i dont see why the idiots cant go and play with the zerg, they would make the same amount of RPs (possibly more) and wouldnt have to ruin the game for other people.
we are a community, it doesnt matter which realm you play you should have mutual respect for everyone, even more so as the community gets smaller and smaller.

 

[Sharkith]

Who's the nice guy? The "adding noob" who is just getting on and playing the game as they always have done (or even the person who has changed how they play but takes no issue with those who haven't) OR the person who used to play the game a certain way, decided to change and then acts like a **** to anyone who hasn't done the same? For some strange reason I would say the former. The hypocritical gobshite might have the kudos amongst his IRC chums but to me he just looks like a ****.

hmmm definitely discussion inc warning! I am going to stick to short posts.

Braken,

you always post well and a lot of what you post focusses on how people treat each other in game and their consistency of character. I can also see the dilemma Eben (believe me I am in the same position).

I think you are both right at one level but slightly miss the point on another very important one. The first thing we ought to do is seperate the arguments from the people, then we get less flames. We have kind of done that by developing the term 'playstyle' and we have agreed I think to have respect for differences in that.

Where the whole thing falls down is when we all start accusing each other of being this or that. Calling Censi a hypocrit is simply replicating the same error he makes when calling someone a 'nice guy irl' dude. I don't see where that will get anyone.....

Sharky

 

[ebenezer]

hmmm definitely discussion inc warning! I am going to stick to short posts.

Braken,

you always post well and a lot of what you post focusses on how people treat each other in game and their consistency of character. I can also see the dilemma Eben (believe me I am in the same position).

I think you are both right at one level but slightly miss the point on another very important one. The first thing we ought to do is seperate the arguments from the people, then we get less flames. We have kind of done that by developing the term 'playstyle' and we have agreed I think to have respect for differences in that.

Where the whole thing falls down is when we all start accusing each other of being this or that. Calling Censi a hypocrit is simply replicating the same error he makes when calling someone a 'nice guy irl' dude. I don't see where that will get anyone.....

Sharky

you know that i would like to hold this at a "game" discussion level shark.
But how do you respond and discuss with some that start calling people names and drags how their rl persona must be like cause how they play?

Raven had some good points, we are a small comunity and it would be nice if we could just have that mutual agreement in the comunity, that zergs stay at zergs...and soloers at soloers.
Problem is that many times soloing is going on just outside of crau bridge.
A gg from any guild that isnt too leet doesnt know all soloer names etc...they see a whole bunch of people fighting, and just pile in cause its close to bridge.
Many times i heard people i call friends ask me whey the soloers HAVE to stand just outside of bridge were the zerg hangs. And i think that is a valid question...and one i cannot answer and know how to deal with^^
eb.

 

[Sharkith]

Well you see if we steered clear of all the personal stuff we might be able to sort it out - no solution is perfect but the current way of discussing and arguing does nothing but fuel the flames. Perhaps thats what people want. If it is so be it.

From where I am sitting I can see the confusion starts as soon as someone either makes claims about someone's personality or couters with a similar argument. Nothing gets solved and we go around in circles. I am kind of interested in practical solutions and find the whine and flames pretty boring. The last decent flame was from Jamies - the one that mentioned gerbils and ball licking in the same sentence.

 

[Vodkafairy]

aslong as people remember it goes both ways. justifying someone elses adding by saying "but hes a nice guy irl" is just as retarded as saying "you must be a **** irl because you add".

 

[ebenezer]

I agree with you about respecting people from other realms etc. but what difference does it make if someone is a nice guy IRL? I only see the actions of people ingame and their behaivour here on FH, so that´s the deciding factors for my evaluation of people. I don´t care whether they´re nice guys or jerks IRL, because I´ll probably never meet them IRL. At the moment, the term "being nice IRL" has a tendency of being abused as some form of double-standard excuse for dodgy actions, something along: "tehehe, yeah, he´s a prick, but that´s ok because I know him".

Just turn it around... imagine someone´s a Saint ingame, good player, always helpful, always polite on FH. Now someone says "yeah but he´s a jerk IRL". Would that change your views of that person? And if not, then why should a "nice IRL" do?

thing is...what defines a good person?
Is it cause he helps out a lot in game? I would say yes...if you see he does it cause he wants to help and not just to get things back.
Is it cause he behaves himself here? Yes in some way..i think you can see some of the persona here quite clearly.
Is it cause he plays his character a certian way..and choose how to rvr? I would say no..cause its a game and a roleplaying game at that

Most people base how you see another human over how the behave socialy.
Its the same in rl. I have a friend that just loves everything the al qaida does, yeh its true. he hates US and doesnt care how many inocent people get slain when it comes to justifying what they do. Its all talk ofc and no action...nonetheless he will always be my friend cause i grow up with him.
He is very nice and social and a loyal friend.
Would i say he is a jerk and that he can die in rl cause his view differs from mine?
Even poeple that i dont know very well that i have a discussion with i dont judge cause they have a different view. I take in their whole behaviour..how they treat people etc. That to me helps me define if he is a good person or not.
What im saying is this. Dont judge a person over how he PLAYS the game...spend some time with him in game and chat with him and you prolly notice if he IS a jerk or not.
You have all the right in the world to say you dont like his PLAYSTYLE though...as its that we should discuss....
eb.

ps..sorry for hijacking ur post thorw, was just to make a point about the rl/game thingy

 

[Theseus]

the reason why most soloers hang around the bridges is because it is the only place you are certain that you will find ppl to fight with... it has grown this way because when ppl run around between say bolg and crau, you won't find anyone, or between nottmoor or bled.. it's just pointless to go there and a waste of time.

Ppl try to limit the time they have to spend to find a fight as the boattrip is annoying enough as it is...

I always go straight to the bridge inbetween the zerg, cuz i like to manouvre inbetween the zergs and find a good moment , a hole , to strike and kill 1 or 2 ppl without the others noticeing... I would go mad staying at crau bridge as a hib cuz i would have to wait for ppl to come and then see my realmmates add or zerg the poor guys that do the boattrip.

 

[ebenezer]

the reason why most soloers hang around the bridges is because it is the only place you are certain that you will find ppl to fight with... it has grown this way because when ppl run around between say bolg and crau, you won't find anyone, or between nottmoor or bled.. it's just pointless to go there and a waste of time.

Ppl try to limit the time they have to spend to find a fight as the boattrip is annoying enough as it is...

I always go straight to the bridge inbetween the zerg, cuz i like to manouvre inbetween the zergs and find a good moment , a hole , to strike and kill 1 or 2 ppl without the others noticeing... I would go mad staying at crau bridge as a hib cuz i would have to wait for ppl to come and then see my realmmates add or zerg the poor guys that do the boattrip.

would you say the zergers have no point at all when they ask: Why do the solo crowd have to stay close to the zerg areas?
Or is it just bollox in ur opinion?
I mean we all know it..we tried make a zone...and that wasnt wanted. So it seems like the solo crowd want add free fights....but at same time have it were they can have a potential spontaneus add...its a big contradiction when you decide to have that close to a place were you know the poeple that reside there doesnt play by "ur" rules^^
eb.

 

[Tesla Monkor]

A Lot of interesting points of view in this thread. I expected a complete mudslinging fest, but as it turns out people actually can communicate in a civilised way.

 

[Theseus]

would you say the zergers have no point at all when they ask: Why do the solo crowd have to stay close to the zerg areas?
Or is it just bollox in ur opinion?
I mean we all know it..we tried make a zone...and that wasnt wanted. So it seems like the solo crowd want add free fights....but at same time have it were they can have a potential spontaneus add...its a big contradiction when you decide to have that close to a place were you know the poeple that reside there doesnt play by "ur" rules^^
eb.

What do you mean "my" rules? I haven't made clear what I see as "my" rules in this thread. I thought that i made it clear that I see that ppl have different perspectives in how to play the game and that I accept them.

The question i got was why do you think that soloers go to the zergplaces, and I gave you my reason for it.. because i'm not patient enough and because i enjoy playing against the odds where i need timing to make my move...

I think that the solo zone failed for that same reason, ppl don't like to go somewhere when they aren't sure that there will be anything to kill as it would be a waste of time.

i prefer addfree fights ofcourse, but sometimes it's fun to try and get away from the adds aswell

 

[ebenezer]

What do you mean "my" rules? I haven't made clear what I see as "my" rules in this thread. I thought that i made it clear that I see that ppl have different perspectives in how to play the game and that I accept them.

The question i got was why do you think that soloers go to the zergplaces, and I gave you my reason for it.. because i'm not patient enough and because i enjoy playing against the odds where i need timing to make my move...

I think that the solo zone failed for that same reason, ppl don't like to go somewhere when they aren't sure that there will be anything to kill as it would be a waste of time.

i prefer addfree fights ofcourse, but sometimes it's fun to try and get away from the adds aswell

sorry if i frased it wrong with "ur" rules
I got the impression you felt like censi did . Thats why i frased it like that.
If you accept the way others play its all good then

 

[Shike]

i dont see why the idiots cant go and play with the zerg, they would make the same amount of RPs (possibly more) and wouldnt have to ruin the game for other people.

because just as I happen to enjoy measuring my char vs other chars in fun fights, there are some that happen to get their enjoyment from going out there with the aim at just ruining as much as they can for others. Its a sadistic behaviour ofc but thats just all there is to it. I've talked to ppl that play adding scouts and such and ask why they keep doing it and the response I got was "its fun to mess it up for others, and there aint a single thing they can do about it haha". So there you have it. If you repetadly (sp?) ruin enough for others you might even get a whinepost, and I think these sad bastards enjoy it, if you cannot get fame from skill, get fame from beeing an asshole which can be enough to satisfy some lowlife scumbags that just doesnt know any better.

There are those that enjoy PKing the lowlife that stand no chanse at all to retaliate (hello greygankers in DF in the old days), there are those that enjoy adding the hell out of everything they see, its all wankers in my book but there isnt much to do about it.

Anyways... same old discussion, over and over and over again, you guys really think it will lead to the wankers getting a clue? I dont.

 

[ebenezer]

because just as I happen to enjoy measuring my char vs other chars in fun fights, there are some that happen to get their enjoyment from going out there with the aim at just ruining as much as they can for others. Its a sadistic behaviour ofc but thats just all there is to it. I've talked to ppl that play adding scouts and such and ask why they keep doing it and the response I got was "its fun to mess it up for others, and there aint a single thing they can do about it haha". So there you have it. If you repetadly (sp?) ruin enough for others you might even get a whinepost, and I think these sad bastards enjoy it, if you cannot get fame from skill, get fame from beeing an asshole which can be enough to satisfy some lowlife scumbags that just doesnt know any better.

There are those that enjoy PKing the lowlife that stand no chanse at all to retaliate (hello greygankers in DF in the old days), there are those that enjoy adding the hell out of everything they see, its all wankers in my book but there isnt much to do about it.

Anyways... same old discussion, over and over and over again, you guys really think it will lead to the wankers getting a clue? I dont.

I agree to what you say about some poeple wanting to ruin others fun. But every zerger dont have that intention. It just aint true as we all know many that doesnt think like that at all. Even so i would think of that scout as a lame guy that plays a practical joke on you like 100 times in a row. Fun and innocent the first time,,,then slightly anoying, but then again he is doing that in a game still. Its not any rl threat to anyone...he is being lame in a game after all.
just keep deviding rl and the game and we might actually get anywhere with this discussion

 

[Theseus]

Probably not But we are having a nice discusssion here and it's nice to have a civilized discussion about this for once. These kind of threads only appear once in a blue moon you know...

Imho the kind of players that you talk about Temples, is a small minority imo... and I think we all know some of the most obvious ones with certain DI bots and emotespam even if they just pass you while you are dead and had nothing to do with it

 

[ebenezer]

Probably not But we are having a nice discusssion here and it's nice to have a civilized discussion about this for once. These kind of threads only appear once in a blue moon you know...

Imho the kind of players that you talk about Temples, is a small minority imo... and I think we all know some of the most obvious ones with certain DI bots and emotespam even if they just pass you while you are dead and had nothing to do with it

agreed

 

[Sharkith]

Ok well from what I can see there are a few things we can consider already. Set aside the personal crap like Shike says there is a very small minority of people who play the game to grief others. It is griefing whether people like it or not but like he says there is nothing to be done with them other than hopefully find ways to avoid them.

I think that the solo zone failed for that same reason, ppl don't like to go somewhere when they aren't sure that there will be anything to kill as it would be a waste of time.

I always go straight to the bridge inbetween the zerg, cuz i like to manouvre inbetween the zergs and find a good moment , a hole , to strike and kill 1 or 2 ppl without the others noticeing... I would go mad staying at crau bridge as a hib cuz i would have to wait for ppl to come and then see my realmmates add or zerg the poor guys that do the boattrip.

You see here is the beginning of an answer here. One of the reasons why the game for visible tanks almost seems like a hopeless affair is simply because of the 'proximity' of playstyles where people with different views end up playing in the same space.

I think this is why new frontiers fails. Not because its too big but because in fact it is much too small. The ability to port to a bridge and camp effectively reduces paths where people roam. I think censi introduced the the term doorstepping I think he got it right - here was the orignal reference I could find.

Now rather than call them lame we should think about that dynamic and how to avoid it....

I always find the best gaming on my shade doing exactly what your doing Theseus, floating around routes to and from the concentrated spaces. In a place where I can effectively find space to play. What has happened is that a lot of these routes are too short and have towers that also allow people to hide and camp. When there are routes to and from the zerg where people are vunerable then the soloer can perhaps find that space to have his game.

Does camping where you can hide make you play better or get a sense of achievement out of the game? I personally don't think it does, what is worse it reduces the gaming experience to only camping on a bridge and effectively reduces the variety of experience everyone can have and thats a bad thing given that we like the diversity of the game.

In some respects the environment is all wrong in NF - it pushes too many people together who have very different views of the game.

What do peeps think is this a fair evaluation of the problem?

edit: and I think a good few of you have said this already.

 

[Fatload BoysDoCry]

Ok well from what I can see there are a few things we can consider already. Set aside the personal crap like Shike says there is a very small minority of people who play the game to grief others. It is griefing whether people like it or not but like he says there is nothing to be done with them other than hopefully find ways to avoid them.

I would like to know what people class as griefing, DI bot? adding? emoting?

 

[Sharkith]

I would like to know what people class as griefing, DI bot? adding? emoting?

Well people do write about these things this seems to be a good start although I disagree with the way in which the stereotypes are being reported in the article (but thats psychologists for you)..... see here

As Bartle pointed out in his Player Types paper, Achievers and Griefers are different points on the same spectrum - Achievers act on the world while Griefers act on other players. A factor-based model of player motivations created from player survey data suggests that a desire for power and control are the underlying themes that connect Achievers and Griefers. Achievers enjoy the power derived from items and abilities and the increased control these give them over the game world (faster movement, better protection, etc.). Griefers on the other hand enjoy the power derived from dominating or tricking other players and the control this gives them over other players. The underlying similarity between Achievers and Griefers is supported by survey data. These two motivations are highly correlated (r = .40, N = 1995).

There are a good few pages there if you want to read it....


edit: this is another one - you need adobe acrobat to read it but it looks much better to me.

 

[Sharkith]

nerf double post

 

[Fatload BoysDoCry]

Well people do write about these things this seems to be a good start although I disagree with the way in which the stereotypes are being reported in the article (but thats psychologists for you)..... see here



There are a good few pages there if you want to read it....

I had a brief look at the link and it seems to share my views on griefing, coming from UO years ago where you could kill and harrass your neighbour all day long, my term of griefing may be different to others. My idea in UO would be would be to pull 5-10 mobs to an area where a person is and hide so the mobs aggro the person, or stealth up and block a corridor so the person can't get away fom the mob thats killing him, or block the entire recall point to his house with candles.

Rezkilling in UO was griefing and went on in huge scales, somebody would rez in the healer hut them bang, someone would appear and start chain killing them and you would have 20-30 corpses in the healer hut.

In daoc my perception of griefing is having your on realm mates x-realm again st you via chat programs such as IRC, by giving away locations to enemy players of people you don't like or sticking to a person you don't like then telling the enemy over IRC you are visible and stuck to them so you are easily found.

X-realming to reveal relic raids etc is griefing imho also, and purposely pulling mobs on ml raids wiping the raid.

 

[Sharkith]

would you say the 'constant and persistent' ganking of one person in an RvR zone because of superior numbers is also griefing?

By definition from the first article it isn't as long as the 'intention' is not to get off on it in some way. It would explain why people write fao threads here - to see if the people who do it 'intend' to do it.

Running around with a DI BOT in a solo zone a form of griefing?

By the definition in the first article it is because those players get off on annoying the others. I need to read the second to be sure that it would still be - the second article looks very good indeed to me.

The problem with the first definition is that you have to discover the 'intention' of the other player and that is not so easy in DaoC - however it can explain why IRC is used so much - people are trying to find out if someone 'intended' to make them feel like shit.

I feel there is much to be gained from a discussion on this - as I said to shike before. You might be surprised what could be achieved if we were to approach Mythic with our thoughts...

 

[Shike]

I agree to what you say about some poeple wanting to ruin others fun. But every zerger dont have that intention. It just aint true as we all know many that doesnt think like that at all. Even so i would think of that scout as a lame guy that plays a practical joke on you like 100 times in a row. Fun and innocent the first time,,,then slightly anoying, but then again he is doing that in a game still. Its not any rl threat to anyone...he is being lame in a game after all.
just keep deviding rl and the game and we might actually get anywhere with this discussion

naah, not every zerger is a sadist Hence the "there are some..". Some people just play the game and just dont care about much and just go on doing the thing they like, they usually dont add on everything in sight though, have to be quite RPhorny to do that, ofc its just as lame, the action is still the same, its just the motive that is different, the "victim" however doesnt care one bit about the motive, he just see the action and judge thereafter like most people do. So what does really differ between Horner (lol Theseus) who is a true sadistic sack of shit and regularJoe boyscout who add on everything he see just because he knows no other way of playing?

 

[Fatload BoysDoCry]

would you say the 'constant and persistent' ganking of one person in an RvR zone because of superior numbers is also griefing?

No i wouldn't, i mean this group could well be looking for equal sized numbers to fight, or there might no be anyone else about and the only active people are in this zone, there are alot of factors that need to be taken into acount.

By definition from the first article it isn't as long as the 'intention' is not to get off on it in some way. It would explain why people write fao threads here - to see if the people who do it 'intend' to do it.

Now this is where things can get a bit grey, if said group went out with the intention of chain killing solo people it might be classed by some as a form of griefing but not me tbh, you enter the rvr zone you know you can die, in UO, if you entered Felucca you knew you were opening yourself up to pk's and thieves, you had to play smart or you died/got robbed.

Running around with a DI BOT in a solo zone a form of griefing?

No imho but i disagree with it, especially as an archer.

By the definition in the first article it is because those players get off on annoying the others. I need to read the second to be sure that it would still be - the second article looks very good indeed to me.

If someone thinks to themselves "i'm going to go out and ruin as much peoples fun as possible today" then yes it could be deemed as grief, but unless you x-realm or do something well out of the CoC its very hard to grief in daoc without being punished.

 

[Theseus]

The difference is that ppl like Horner do it so blatently that ppl don't even care a little bit when he does it, it's more amusing then anything else.

Like when he adds on you for example my reaction is more like, lol Horner again... It's ironic that he tries to have this reputation but with his excessive use of emotes, di and other stuff that is considered unfair play / griefing by most ppl, that he fails to do what he wants and turns into a parody of what he tries to achieve.

The other do tend to piss ppl off a bit more and succeed in their goal i guess