Politics POLL: Brexit Withdrawal Agreement

[Gwadien]

I think you forget that were also in that club - it's just that we decided to destroy our manufacturing industry which means that we're not selling them as much as the Germans - we could, but we don't.

I also like it how you have a problem with the Germans doing it, but you don't have a problem with the Commonwealth.

 

[Job]

What do *you* want @Job?

What they cant give us..same trade deals, non membership, no automatic freedom of movement, but with a yearly fee to keep things ticking over.
So we just have to push as hard as we can for the best deal..this is all part of it..its not a shambles or a disaster..or a humiliation...its doing deals and keeping your hand covered as best you can.
Intrnational poker..not helped by remainers running around squealing and shouting, shes only got a pair of twos.
This isnt Mays 'deal', its what the EU is offering to Britain, we kicked it back as unworkable...more talks required.
The vote was a good thing and the EU knew it wasnt going to pass.

 

[Ormorof]

What they cant give us..same trade deals, non membership, no automatic freedom of movement, but with a yearly fee to keep things ticking over.
So we just have to push as hard as we can for the best deal..this is all part of it..its not a shambles or a disaster..or a humiliation...its doing deals and keeping your hand covered as best you can.
Intrnational poker..not helped by remainers running around squealing and shouting, shes only got a pair of twos.
This isnt Mays 'deal', its what the EU is offering to Britain, we kicked it back as unworkable...more talks required.
The vote was a good thing and the EU knew it wasnt going to pass.

This is the deal that is possible under current EU rules based on what British government said they wanted in the negotiations. This was rejected by parliament. Blaming it on the EU is absurd

 

[Gwadien]

This is the deal that is possible under current EU rules based on what British government said they wanted in the negotiations. This was rejected by parliament. Blaming it on the EU is absurd

Yeah but, it was negotiated by May, a Remainer!

Atleast all the Brexiteer Tories are stepping up and supporting this no confidence so that they can become PM and do Brexit in the way they want it!

Or not.

 

[Job]

They are not going to give us the same trade deals without full movement and EU court.

Its the EU who will pull the plug on trade deals.
Though for the life of me I dont see how there is any future in clubs and trade deals...in a globalised world they should actually be illegal or more likely irrelevent.

 

[Wij]

They are not going to give us the same trade deals without full movement and EU court.

Its the EU who will pull the plug on trade deals.
Though for the life of me I dont see how there is any future in clubs and trade deals...in a globalised world they should actually be illegal or more likely irrelevent.

Buh?

 

[Wij]

If I can just guess at what you mean though. Regional trading blocs?

There is definitely a future in them. The world is heading that way. If you want enough clout to be able to negotiate you either are part of a big club and help set its rules or you follow the rules of one of them. That's the way the world is heading like it or not.

It seems unlikely that we'd be looking to club with China or ASEAN so that leaves the EU or the US. The EU is bigger and nearer. Even in a no deal scenario we'd be looking to follow pretty much all EU rules anyway for the sake of ease of trade and to stop the EU imposing tariffs on us.

 

[Scouse]

Out, do what they say to the letter.

Erm, win?

 

[Job]

But why do they offer cheaper deals?
Are they cheaper because they make the process cheaper..is it a kick back for loyalty.
Is it like having a Tesco clubcard, or is it based on conformity to standards or a promise to a scratch each others back.
Inside a country most of that behaviour would be reported to the monopolies dept.

As you say regional trade deals..but at what point does someone step in and say trade should be ruled by distance and the immense cost to the environment of container ships sailing the world.
Trade to China is an obscene use of fossil fuels..fucking food from New Zealand ffs.
They want global trade, but local backhanders and no ones talking about how rificulous it is to transport it all over the planet.

It just seems like a lot of huge forces pulling in different directions...Brexit is just a blip.

 

[Bodhi]

They are saying plenty of stuff but british press only listen to german ones

And EFTA membership is not automatic also requires approval from current EFTA members. And if accepted, regulatory alignment, paying into EU budget, and free movement of people so not sure how thats what brexiteers want?

Fake news

Frequently asked questions on EFTA, the EEA, EFTA membership and Brexit | European Free Trade Association

They do contribute into the EU budget but it is miniscule compared to full EU membership, maybe 3 weeks of our Gross contributions. We wouldn't be in the customs union so can sign our own deals, and regulatory requirements are only there if you sell into the EU - Norway for eg, have enacted 9% of EU regs.

It's the way forwards, lets the small men in Brussels get on with empire building and wearing matching shoes, let's the rest of us get on with trading with the world.

 

[Wij]

Fake news

Frequently asked questions on EFTA, the EEA, EFTA membership and Brexit | European Free Trade Association

They do contribute into the EU budget but it is miniscule compared to full EU membership, maybe 3 weeks of our Gross contributions. We wouldn't be in the customs union so can sign our own deals, and regulatory requirements are only there if you sell into the EU - Norway for eg, have enacted 9% of EU regs.

It's the way forwards, lets the small men in Brussels get on with empire building and wearing matching shoes, let's the rest of us get on with trading with the world.

Without the Customs Union we'd be breaking the Good Friday Agreement still. (Even with the Customs Union it's still a pretty clear case that it would be breaking the agreement as NI did not vote to leave.)

/edit: And there was a much healthier majority in the referendum for that one:

1998 Northern Ireland Good Friday Agreement referendum - Wikipedia

 

[Gwadien]

Trade to China is an obscene use of fossil fuels..fucking food from New Zealand ffs.
They want global trade, but local backhanders and no ones talking about how rificulous it is to transport it all over the planet.

Wait, weren't you saying that our new trading bloc should be with the Commonwealth?

 

[Bodhi]

Without the Customs Union we'd be breaking the Good Friday Agreement still. (Even with the Customs Union it's still a pretty clear case that it would be breaking the agreement as NI did not vote to leave.)

/edit: And there was a much healthier majority in the referendum for that one:

1998 Northern Ireland Good Friday Agreement referendum - Wikipedia

Given that the EU, UK, WTO and even Leo himself have all said we wouldn't need a hard border if we leave with no deal, I can't see them insisting on one if we join EFTA.

NI and the ROI are two separate customs areas anyway, with different taxes, currencies etc. No need to create problems where they don't exist.

 

[old.user4556]

LEL to all of this.

I don’t understand why we don’t just cut the crap and say “you didn’t want my deal, so we’re leaving with no deal” and stop talking about it. Nothing has changed in over two years.

What I hear from Brexiteers is that they voted to get out, the “democratic will of the people” must be respected, so all this faffing around with “deals” is pointless. Just leave.

 

[DaGaffer]

Fake news

Frequently asked questions on EFTA, the EEA, EFTA membership and Brexit | European Free Trade Association

They do contribute into the EU budget but it is miniscule compared to full EU membership, maybe 3 weeks of our Gross contributions. We wouldn't be in the customs union so can sign our own deals, and regulatory requirements are only there if you sell into the EU - Norway for eg, have enacted 9% of EU regs.

It's the way forwards, lets the small men in Brussels get on with empire building and wearing matching shoes, let's the rest of us get on with trading with the world.

Can you be in EFTA without being in the EEA? It’s not clear from that FAQ; all of the current members of EFTA are in the EEA, but I don’t know if that’s a condition of membership. If it is, you’re back to the four freedoms which apparently isn’t going to fly because racism.

Personally I’ve always felt an EFTA type deal was the logical answer (although probably not EFTA itself; UK membership and GDP would skew EFTA’s own governance too much but certainly Switzerland), but Brexit ideology is owned by bad actors, both in UK politics and media.

 

[DaGaffer]

LEL to all of this.

I don’t understand why we don’t just cut the crap and say “you didn’t want my deal, so we’re leaving with no deal” and stop talking about it. Nothing has changed in over two years.

What I hear from Brexiteers is that they voted to get out, the “democratic will of the people” must be respected, so all this faffing around with “deals” is pointless. Just leave.

The “ah, just leave I’m sick of it” position. Unfortunately huge numbers of people are at this point (understandably), but the only people who are going to win from that are hedge funds and currency speculators. Joe Soap is really not going to like the price rises, job cuts, (yet more) public spending cuts, and falling standards of living.

 

[Bodhi]

Can you be in EFTA without being in the EEA? It’s not clear from that FAQ; all of the current members of EFTA are in the EEA, but I don’t know if that’s a condition of membership. If it is, you’re back to the four freedoms which apparently isn’t going to fly because racism.

Personally I’ve always felt an EFTA type deal was the logical answer (although probably not EFTA itself; UK membership and GDP would skew EFTA’s own governance too much but certainly Switzerland), but Brexit ideology is owned by bad actors, both in UK politics and media.

My understanding is that EFTA leaves member states to arrange their own relationship with the EU. Most go through the EEA, except Switzerland who have 17 million bilateral agreements.

Should be palatable to all but the most extreme ends of the debate, such as the mental patients outside Parliament. However they can go fuck themselves

 

[Wij]

Given that the EU, UK, WTO and even Leo himself have all said we wouldn't need a hard border if we leave with no deal, I can't see them insisting on one if we join EFTA.

EU planning notices published last month said that in the event of no deal every consignment of animal products (including food) coming into the EU from the UK would have to undergo checks "at the point of entry."

Dublin steps up Brexit no-deal plans

 

[Wij]

My understanding is that EFTA leaves member states to arrange their own relationship with the EU. Most go through the EEA, except Switzerland who have 17 million bilateral agreements.

Should be palatable to all but the most extreme ends of the debate, such as the mental patients outside Parliament. However they can go fuck themselves

Can't see most of the Brexiteers accepting it.

 

[Deebs]

I want to ask this of the people calling for a 2nd referendum in the defence of people being too young to vote in 2016.

I was too young to vote in 1975, can I call for a 2nd referendum ?

Bear in mind the referendum was to join a trade bloc and NOT a political union as it is now.

Another question(s), what would the vote have been if we had referendums on the Lisbon and Maastricht treaties? The problem is simple, the electorate has been denied their voice over the last years and they finally spoke when had the choice, forget their age, they HAD to live with it, the same as the next generations will have to live with it with how the current live electorate have voted.

For me the biggest problem I have seen from all this bollox is the lack of UK Government in EU matters and the lack of media coverage. This fiasco has to show that both have to change moving forward.

 

[Wij]

It would be a referendum on the final deal. Not the same thing.

Q: Can the will of the people be betrayed by the will of the people?

 

[Gwadien]

For me, it's purely down to circumstances - I'm sure you're like 'nah bruv, you're just a butt-hurt remoaner' but my attitude is that in both camps (mainly leave) lots of shit was projected out of many people's mouths which turned out to be not true.

I feel like there's a massive negative attitude towards Brexit and that people realised that they made a silly emotional knee-jerk vote.

If we had a Labour Government where the working classes had money thrown at them I suspect that the outcome would have been massively different.

The Brexiteers on this forum will disagree with me whilst some of the remainers might agree with me, there's only one way to find out, but that's why I feel like the Brexiteers are hostile to the idea, because they know they'll lose, the whole idea of 'betraying democracy' is bullshit.

 

[Wij]

Bear in mind the referendum was to join a trade bloc and NOT a political union as it is now.

Also this isn’t particularly true:

Ask Full Fact: did we vote for the EU in the 1975 referendum?

 

[DaGaffer]

I want to ask this of the people calling for a 2nd referendum in the defence of people being too young to vote in 2016.

I was too young to vote in 1975, can I call for a 2nd referendum ?

Bear in mind the referendum was to join a trade bloc and NOT a political union as it is now.

Another question(s), what would the vote have been if we had referendums on the Lisbon and Maastricht treaties? The problem is simple, the electorate has been denied their voice over the last years and they finally spoke when had the choice, forget their age, they HAD to live with it, the same as the next generations will have to live with it with how the current live electorate have voted.

For me the biggest problem I have seen from all this bollox is the lack of UK Government in EU matters and the lack of media coverage. This fiasco has to show that both have to change moving forward.

The Government has announced the results of the renegotiation of the United Kingdom's terms of membership of the European Community.
Do you think the United Kingdom should stay in the European Community (the Common Market)?

The 1975 referendum was on the basis of a substantive question with actual information in it. You could read the revised terms of membership and decide to vote for it or not. No one knew what they were actually voting for in 2016 and still don't. In 1975 there was a vote on an actual deal, it's not unreasonable to ask for the same again.

 

[Job]

The trotskys are getting behind Brexit.

Labour must pursue a new Brexit deal, not a second referendum | Owen Jones

 

[Wij]

Owen Jones is a fucking turd.

 

[Job]

So Corbyn wants no deal off the table.

My God ..what a fucking potato of a prime minister he would be.

 

[Wij]

Wowzers


View: https://twitter.com/RoryStewartUK/status/1056568783400243201

 

[Ormorof]

Fake news

Frequently asked questions on EFTA, the EEA, EFTA membership and Brexit | European Free Trade Association

They do contribute into the EU budget but it is miniscule compared to full EU membership, maybe 3 weeks of our Gross contributions. We wouldn't be in the customs union so can sign our own deals, and regulatory requirements are only there if you sell into the EU - Norway for eg, have enacted 9% of EU regs.

It's the way forwards, lets the small men in Brussels get on with empire building and wearing matching shoes, let's the rest of us get on with trading with the world.

according to this crowd : Norway's EU payments

Its between 30% to 12% less, before factoring in the return from EU. Hardly a miniscule amount

 

[DaGaffer]

according to this crowd : Norway's EU payments

Its between 30% to 12% less, before factoring in the return from EU. Hardly a miniscule amount

Relative to the public spending budget, the amount the UK pays now is a minuscule amount. The money paid to Brussels has been one of the biggest red herrings in this whole farce.