Politics POLL: Brexit Withdrawal Agreement

[caLLous]

I mean, this is a good thing isnt it?
Reducing corporate profits by refusing to let people work as economic slaves.
Labour think its bad because it will hit the economy...which it wont.

UK to close door to non-English speakers and unskilled workers

I'm reminded of the Leave-voting fruit farmer who was worried he might be put out of business if he couldn't get the seasonal staff he needed from the EU.

 

[Job]

Yes...he might need to downgrade to last years Discovery.

 

[Gwadien]

I mean, this is a good thing isnt it?
Reducing corporate profits by refusing to let people work as economic slaves.
Labour think its bad because it will hit the economy...which it wont.

UK to close door to non-English speakers and unskilled workers

No.

If they increased the all round goodness of the jobs it would be good, but they won't, it will get worse.

The reality is that this is good for universal credit because if you have a brainsurgeon come in, there's now more jobs to tell them they have to apply for or they don't get money, so basically job seekers will dissappear that's good, but most people in the UK will be working untrained jobs when lots of industry in the UK is destroyed thanks to Brexit.

But you'll be alright so who cares about that right?

 

[Gwadien]

I know what your vision is though Job, we'll get the underclass working, but they won't, crime will increase as a result, because people know they can earn more money illegally than working shit jobs.

The people who will suffer are people who don't have savings and lose their jobs suddenly and find themselves working a job that theyre way to skilled to be working.

 

[Job]

Yes..youre right,.slave labour from poor countries has been fixing that for centuries.

 

[Scouse]

I know what your vision is though Job, we'll get the underclass working, but they won't, crime will increase as a result, because people know they can earn more money illegally than working shit jobs.

Farmers will have to pay farm hands proper wages if transient workers are off limits.

Food prices will have to rise, or farms will shut down. But since we're extricated from the CAP we will have the power to deal with that.

So technically, yes it could work. Food would become more expensive to counter wages. But it won't work - because making well-thought-out changes in the rapid timescales required is beyond the ken of any government we've ever had.

 

[Gwadien]

Farmers will have to pay farm hands proper wages if transient workers are off limits.

Food prices will have to rise, or farms will shut down. But since we're extricated from the CAP we will have the power to deal with that.

So technically, yes it could work. Food would become more expensive to counter wages. But it won't work - because making well-thought-out changes in the rapid timescales required is beyond the ken of any government we've ever had.

You're just talking about farmers though, what about agency factory workers, cleaners, all those sorts of shitty jobs that no-one wants to do.

Also, they won't have to increase wages, because if someone goes on Universal Credit, and this farm offers them a job on minimum wage, that person HAS to accept the job, or their money ends.

The problem is that we're an advanced western country where kids have aspirations to do better than their parents and they definitely have the opportunity to achieve what they want in comparison to countries where we get much of our cheap labour.

I just feel like we're dialling back on our individual pride and wants for the betterment of the country as a whole.

Sounds like 1933.

I wouldn't be surprised if we received new directives in schools to tell kids that they shouldn't have ambitions and that some people have to be toilet cleaners!

 

[Scouse]

You're just talking about farmers though, what about agency factory workers, cleaners, all those sorts of shitty jobs that no-one wants to do.

That will probably have to pay more.

At the moment we outsource this problem to poland. Because they come over, do the shit job, go back to poland and buy a house.

The problem is that we're an advanced western country where kids have aspirations to do better than their parents

Tough shit. You can aspire all you like. But reality dictates that most people aren't going to reach their lofty aspirations.

Sounds like 1933.

Groan

I wouldn't be surprised if we received new directives in schools to tell kids that they shouldn't have ambitions and that some people have to be toilet cleaners!

Absolutely not. You should have aspirations. But they absolutely should be telling the shit kids - if you don't work hard then a future as a toilet cleaner absolutely is where you're going to end up. And it WILL be the future of some of these kids. And that's entirely correct.

Magic land where everyone gets what they dreamed they were going to get is the definition of unsustainable @Gwadien.

Now, if we reform capitalism so things are fairer and more sustainable, yadda yadda yadda...

 

[Gwadien]

That will probably have to pay more.

At the moment we outsource this problem to poland. Because they come over, do the shit job, go back to poland and buy a house.

But this isn't even remotely true, most come here and settle. That sounds like some Daily Mail facts.

As for telling kids that they will have to be toilet cleaners, why would you accept that when you can just deal some drugs and make FAR more money?

Who do we blame then? The kids for picking a life of crime or kids being forced to pick a life of crime?

 

[Scouse]

As for telling kids that they will have to be toilet cleaners, why would you accept that when you can just deal some drugs and make FAR more money?

Who do we blame then? The kids for picking a life of crime or kids being forced to pick a life of crime?

There's two things at play:

1) Mollycoddled arseholes who think that aspiration = guaranteed cushy life. If you don't fucking work, you shouldn't expect anything. And if you decide to deal drugs then you're responsible for that choice in full knowledge of the consequences of that sort of a life.

2) Capitalism.

Both absolutely have a major stake in the issue. 1) is absolutely true though - kids aren't taught that life is hard and they have to fucking work and that if you don't achieve then your working life in this economy is going to be difficult. 2) is also true - because who has to do what job (that *has* to be done, period, someone has to pick up litter, clean shit up, wipe the arses of incontinent and violent old women in homes) isn't distributed fairly in any way shape or form.

So the answer to 2) is reform. But you talk about that and all of terrified society (stoked by the rich) call you communist. But make no bones about it - people don't want to do those shit jobs - so part of that resistance to reform is that we already have an underclass who are forced into it, and most people (including you and me) aren't going to push hard to do our fair share of those jobs.

So other than the overarching 2)'s part in bringing about 1). For 1) - I blame mostly two things. Parents, for lying to their children. Teachers, for not making up for the parents lies and, in your case, whining when reality starts to dawn on them.

Life in a capitalist economy is harsh, unsustainable, and unfair. Tell your kids that.

 

[Gwadien]

There's two things at play:

1) Mollycoddled arseholes who think that aspiration = guaranteed cushy life. If you don't fucking work, you shouldn't expect anything. And if you decide to deal drugs then you're responsible for that choice in full knowledge of the consequences of that sort of a life.

2) Capitalism.

Both absolutely have a major stake in the issue. 1) is absolutely true though - kids aren't taught that life is hard and they have to fucking work and that if you don't achieve then your working life in this economy is going to be difficult. 2) is also true - because who has to do what job (that *has* to be done, period, someone has to pick up litter, clean shit up, wipe the arses of incontinent and violent old women in homes) isn't distributed fairly in any way shape or form.

So the answer to 2) is reform. But you talk about that and all of terrified society (stoked by the rich) call you communist. But make no bones about it - people don't want to do those shit jobs - so part of that resistance to reform is that we already have an underclass who are forced into it, and most people (including you and me) aren't going to push hard to do our fair share of those jobs.

So other than the overarching 2)'s part in bringing about 1). For 1) - I blame mostly two things. Parents, for lying to their children. Teachers, for not making up for their parents lies and whining when reality starts to dawn on them.

Life in a capitalist economy is harsh, unsustainable, and unfair. Tell your kids that.

I disagree.

Kids that get into drug dealing aren't your entitled types, they just look in their community to see why seeing mum working everyday as a cleaner being stressed and getting paid fuck all, whilst Jim your next door neighbour is at home all day, deals weed and makes a fortune.

As far as I'm concerned, the changes to JSA or UC highlight the difference in attitude and expectations to people on it.

JSA was more about OK, find a job you wanna do, we'll give you a bit of money until you do so, if you're on it for a while then we'll start asking you to go down other routes, and we'll offer you training on other stuff that interests you.

UC is more about, if you're working, that's great, we'll send you extra money if you're not earning enough, you know what, actually, we'll indefinitely continue to pay you more, so long as you keep working, that's fine.

It's gone from a system of putting people into jobs that they enjoy/are trained for to a system where you put anyone in any job, so long as you have less people on your books, its all good.

You can't just stop giving the undesirable jobs to immigrants for a hundred years, then suddenly expect everyone to drop their expectations.

 

[Scouse]

You can't just stop giving the undesirable jobs to immigrants for a hundred years, then suddenly expect everyone to drop their expectations.

Yes you can. They're doing it.

Wake up.

 

[Job]

Its great to see Labour and Liberals opposing it.
Well because they are in a death spiral and Im running out of popcorn.

 

[Ormorof]

The idea that kids arent taught life is hard and they have to graft to do well has been spouted by grumpy old men for millenia and has always been wrong...

 

[Deebs]

My issue is that I do not want a federal Europe. Period. That is where the EU are heading. I have no issue with immigration but due to how I voted implies I did. I am born from an immigrant for fuck sake.

 

[Scouse]

The idea that kids arent taught life is hard and they have to graft to do well has been spouted by grumpy old men for millenia and has always been wrong...

Or from @Gwadien's mouth.

As for telling kids that they will have to be toilet cleaners, why would you accept that

...

 

[Ormorof]

"you will have to be a toilet cleaner!"

Or

"Work hard, or you will have to be a toilet cleaner!"

 

[Scouse]

My issue is that I do not want a federal Europe. Period. That is where the EU are heading. I have no issue with immigration but due to how I voted implies I did. I am born from an immigrant for fuck sake.

I guess I don't understand the concept of a federal europe well enough to hold such a strong objection.

Honestly, the only thing I'm arsed about is environmental and animal welfare and food standards. But that alone is enough to dislike brexit for me.

 

[Scouse]

"Work hard, or you will have to be a toilet cleaner!"

That's what I was saying.

But the reality is: "Work hard and you might be able to avoid being a toilet cleaner"

and

"because for some reason we accept a world where some people don't have to clean up their own shit".

 

[dysfunction]

I guess I don't understand the concept of a federal europe well enough to hold such a strong objection.

Honestly, the only thing I'm arsed about is environmental and animal welfare and food standards. But that alone is enough to dislike brexit for me.

Well if it's a similar structure to the United States I wouldn't really mind. A Central government but with each state also having some sort of autonomy but definitely not Sovereign States.
United States of Europe - Wikipedia

It would in essence be a single country.

 

[Scouse]

Yeah, I get that concept. But other than what I find distateful about the European project I think that's largely a good thing in the long run (for the entire planet).

 

[Yoni]

My issue is that I do not want a federal Europe. Period. That is where the EU are heading. I have no issue with immigration but due to how I voted implies I did. I am born from an immigrant for fuck sake.

I do not think that any one here thinks that all leavers are racist so unsure as to why you believe that of you choice. What I believe is that there is a useful idiot maybe two who frequent the forums who spend their time posting items and interpreting news in such a way that fits their very scary brighter than white British view whilst attacking other people’s homes and lives with know real knowledge.

 

[Gwadien]

That's what I was saying.

But the reality is: "Work hard and you might be able to avoid being a toilet cleaner"

and

"because for some reason we accept a world where some people don't have to clean up their own shit".

The Government is literally saying, we're keeping the shit jobs for the people born in the UK and allow immigrants to come and take the good jobs.

The Government is pandering to the Job type of people by getting working class immigrants off the streets, but in reality they've found a way to replace all the jobs we're going to lose, by having people working in shit jobs.

Sure Thatcher destroyed lots of working class jobs, but she also created lots of middle class well paid jobs (which I'd imagine most people here are a product of). The Government saying 'we're gonna need you to fill the shitty jobs' after as I said before, hundreds of years of having immigrants coming to do the shit jobs, and not just in the UK, all over the planet is unprecedented, I'm very surprised you're telling people to fall in line rather than rallying against it.

I guess it's a 'it's not me' situation

 

[Scouse]

The Government is literally saying, we're keeping the shit jobs for the people born in the UK and allow immigrants to come and take the good jobs.

You could also read it like this:

Dumb people in the UK can't compete with unskilled labour from abroad, so they sit on benefits not doing owt. So, we're stopping unskilled labour and telling business "raise your rates" - in the hope that there'll be a plethora of low-paid job for the dumb fucks we've currently got on benefits - for jobs that cannot be outsourced (toilet cleaners, plumbers, care home assistants).

Clever people never gave a shit about competition - and work their ass off anyway. If an Indian can come to the UK and do my job better than me, well done. The only thing I'm a bit butthurt about is that in the "knowledge economy" they can hire five Indians to do my job in India, even if the product is in the UK. - having said that, even then, I'm happy that I can compete.

The Government is pandering to the Job type of people by getting working class immigrants off the streets, but in reality they've found a way to replace all the jobs we're going to lose, by having people working in shit jobs.

Which is OK. I've no problem with dumb people working shit jobs. That's what dumb people get to do. (Well, I do actually have a problem with that, but that's a type 2) problem, so in our current system, that's what it's for).

I find it a bit hypocritical that you've taken the racist stance that it's OK for "foreigners" to do jobs that are shit, but you don't want our precious englanders to do the same jobs - because they're shit, and we're too precious, or something.

Explain that please.

Sure Thatcher destroyed lots of working class jobs, but she also created lots of middle class well paid jobs (which I'd imagine most people here are a product of). The Government saying 'we're gonna need you to fill the shitty jobs' after as I said before, hundreds of years of having immigrants coming to do the shit jobs, and not just in the UK, all over the planet is unprecedented, I'm very surprised you're telling people to fall in line rather than rallying against it.

No. I'm saying "tell me why the British should continue to benefit from foreigners doing jobs that we're not prepared to do".

When push comes to shove you don't give a shit about human equality.

The fact that it's unprecedented doesn't make it wrong.

I guess it's a 'it's not me' situation

No. Clearly it's a type 2) situation. If you reform our economy - something I've consistently argued for - then I'll happily (or maybe reluctantly) muck in with the rest of humanity. Because that would be fair sharing of the jobs none of us want to do.

Until you fix that type 2) situation then you can fuck off. I'm going to use my hard work and my brains so I don't have to do the shit jobs that johnny dumbass has, unfortunately, either been too lazy, or is too dumb to get himself out of.

All of us in it together < my preference. Every man for himself < our world.


It's certainly more ethically sound than:

All of us "in it together" - honest! (as long as brits don't have to do shit things, just foreigners - because they're used to it).


Sounds to me like 'dem foreigners need a break from being our wage-slaves.

 

[dysfunction]

Well I think the whole policy isn't thought out very well at all. This could put a few companies out of business as they are suddenly expected to either (or most likely a combination of):

1. Invest in technology to do the work - Not always possible in a number of industries
2. Increase efficiency - also not always possible
3. Hire local staff.

Yes as you said to attract locals you will need to up their pay but then that just increases the cost of goods making the company less competitive.

For example the fruit industry relies on the low cost worker to go and hand pick fruit to be competitive. People don't do this long term. It's a stepping stone job or one to do while you travel.
Any major hikes in price and people will go elsewhere for the products they want.

 

[Scouse]

Yep.

That's what we voted for. Obviously.

The policy is the natural consequence of the vote. It was so obvious that I don't believe that the British public didn't understand this and want this. Prices need to go up to compensate the businesses - and if their product is worth it (according to market economics) then we'll pay the price.

Ofc, what'll happen is we'll raise tarrifs/taxes on new zealand lamb and south african apples...

 

[dysfunction]

Yes absolutely.
A government for the little people as well as for business.

 

[Gwadien]

You really need to shorten your posts man.

I'm game for reforming the political and economic system, let's do it.

But nope, so under the current system, people travel from poorer countries to richer countries to work in jobs that the natives of that land do not want because they see it as demeaning and paid too little, and can find other ways of making money, illegal or not.

Also, I feel like I need to make it clear that it won't just be the retards pushed into these jobs, it will be pretty much everyone, the Government wants to push the unemployed into these shit dead end jobs for the rest of their lives, whilst not giving them many opportunities to train to do something more meaningful. That's how Universal Credit works, this policy combined with Universal Credit means that people who have fallen on hard times, and may have some aspiration will be put into dead end jobs and won't have the opportunity to escape from it. I've witnessed it first hand already, middle aged men who have worked in the same job for years working their way up, losing their jobs, going into the job centre and being told that they have to apply for any job that they find, regardless if it's appropriate or not.

And the Government suggesting that they're going to make them better trained and more well paid? LOL, fuck off, it's pretty clear that this government is going to shit all over workers rights, and probably freeze the minimum wage whilst being proud to rise the living wage. Crime will rise and the Government will just employ more police.

I'm not really sure how you can be suggesting we should overhaul the political and economic system to something 'fairer' when you won't even criticise something that clearly isn't going to be 'fairer'.

 

[dysfunction]

Yep.

That's what we voted for. Obviously.

The policy is the natural consequence of the vote. It was so obvious that I don't believe that the British public didn't understand this and want this. Prices need to go up to compensate the businesses - and if their product is worth it (according to market economics) then we'll pay the price.

Ofc, what'll happen is we'll raise tarrifs/taxes on new zealand lamb and south african apples...

Yes so then everything gets really expensive and hey presto we'll end up with large increases in inflation...and everyone gets poor apart from the rich of course...yay

 

[Scouse]

Yes so then everything gets really expensive and hey presto we'll end up with large increases in inflation...and everyone gets poor apart from the rich of course...yay

I'm actually the messenger. Don't shoot me