News Paris Attack

Yoni

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My only issue is those women preaching that shit to kids, but then I also have a problem with my daughter's catholic school preaching shite as well, and that's much more relevant to me.
I understand the issue you have with your daughter BUT the indoctrination will not stick. I went to three catholic schools from the age of 4 to 16.... Most of my old 'Catholic' school friends are non-practising (inc me), what is more interesting is now many of the non Catholic students converted when they became parents...
 

DaGaffer

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I understand the issue you have with your daughter BUT the indoctrination will not stick. I went to three catholic schools from the age of 4 to 16.... Most of my old 'Catholic' school friends are non-practising (inc me), what is more interesting is now many of the non Catholic students converted when they became parents...
Not really the point. 90+% of schools in Ireland are Catholic, and despite promises, the government aren't cutting the church out of the loop (because most of the schools are on Catholic land and it would cost money). There are secular schools, but they're few and far between, and don't have a particularly stellar reputation at the moment. My daughter comes home with books describing Genesis as a real thing; even the fucking Vatican doesn't say that! I have to explain to her that these are just stories that some people think are true, but most people don't. A tricky concept for a five year old when I need her to trust her teacher.
 

Raven

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I understand the issue you have with your daughter BUT the indoctrination will not stick. I went to three catholic schools from the age of 4 to 16.... Most of my old 'Catholic' school friends are non-practising (inc me), what is more interesting is now many of the non Catholic students converted when they became parents...
For a large amount of people, it does stick. Religion's existence when its clearly a load of bollocks proves this.

If religion wasn't crammed down the neck's of children then it would be dead and the world could move on.
 

Scouse

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Why bother though? Society is more than welcoming of differing views and religions
You're not welcoming of differing views.

The amount of time you say get rid, or move 'em somewhere else, or nuke 'em (rofflez!! notseriousbut)...

If people want to destroy that then get rid, simplez.

It just so happens there is an area that welcomes their view, which is handy.
The answer to the why bother question is both simple and obvious: If what you're offering isn't substantially better than the alternative then greater numbers of people choose the alternative - and numbers matter.
 

Scouse

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If religion wasn't crammed down the neck's of children then it would be dead and the world could move on.
I agree that secular schooling should be law. But exposure to bullshit helps protect some people from different types of bullshit. More protection for open debate of all kinds is what's needed.

That bitch that @Yoni pointed out - if it wasn't potentially criminal to preach to people the way she does then she'd be most likely doing it in the open and would get laughed at in the way that we laugh at the batshit christian corners who tell us we're all going to hell if we don't obey god's laws.
 

Raven

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You're not welcoming of differing views.

The amount of time you say get rid, or move 'em somewhere else, or nuke 'em (rofflez!! notseriousbut)...



The answer to the why bother question is both simple and obvious: If what you're offering isn't substantially better than the alternative then greater numbers of people choose the alternative - and numbers matter.
I'm not welcoming people that want to kill me and push that view onto children, a bit of a difference
 

Scouse

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I'm not welcoming people that want to kill me and push that view onto children, a bit of a difference
That's a fair stance - but you show no interest in solving the problem.

You call on woefully simplistic "ship em home" or "bomb em" or "fuck em" (so called) arguments and respond with "Why bother" to this:
And frankly if our society cant offer a more appealing alternative to death in a desert perhaps we could work on that too?
You bother with this because if you don't want people doing what you hate in ever greater numbers then that's exactly what you have to do...
 

Raven

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So tell me exactly how you would stop these despicable people from forcing their twisted views onto a child...without removing the adult from the equation?
 

Scouse

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Oh, so you intend to ship them home without their kids?
 

Gwadien

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I find myself in an internal conflict over where the line of freedom of speech should be especially when I read in the news items like

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-reject-democracy-in-undercover-a6746226.html

I am aware that although we all have different views and political standpoints on these forums and sometimes we behave like children in defence of our personal ideologies, I also believe that we are rational and have an in built line which we know we can't cross.

However, considering the increase in hate for those of a religious or secular standpoint where should the line be drawn.

Just as I think it is not ok for people to cry out for the eradication or persecution for those with beliefs in one of the many sky fairies, I also do not think it is ok to preach to the vulnerable and pursuade them to commit horrible atrocities whether the cause is a specific sky fairy or for a political agenda...(naturally for some it is the same thing).

My question to myself becomes at what point should legislation step in? Should these women be put away where they can no longer damage the vulnerable if so shouldn't other extremists ie sky fairy haters or those who would wish for sky fairy registers (basically it amounts to the Nazis branding Jews) also be locked up?

It's not only Da'esh that are scary but also the thoughts of Donald Trump and even (although the paper is skitsnack) the Suns current anti-skyfairy propaganda...

Let her spout away.

The part where I drop my personal ideologies is by accepting that our police will be tracking her every move and checking on everyone she talks to.

As I said many times before, you stop people like that, and they start doing it behind closed doors and people will have no idea what they're up to.

Schools can now keep an eye on her children too.
 

Raven

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Oh, so you intend to ship them home without their kids?
Yes

Do you think an adult telling (not just telling, but imprinting) its children they should become murders is a fit person to be a parent?
 

Raven

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So you do think people who are clearly incapable of looking after children and are quite clearly guilty of mental child abuse should bring up children.

Ok...
 

Scouse

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No I don't. But any "solution" you propose has to not be batshit mental.

Lets look at your solution, not too deeply (because we really don't need to). Regardless of legality, you take people's kids off them, send them back to <insert place> and then what?

They stay there? Just accept that? They don't hate the west even more? They don't spread their bile in a place where people are ripe for radicalisation in an area where there aren't the moderate voices to counter them? They don't come back? Violently? The rest of the world wouldn't look at us like a country of imbeciles?

Simple solutions to complex problems, like bombing Iraq and removing Saddam, create even more problems, like ISIS. And you're the type who loves to nuke from orbit...
 

DaGaffer

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I agree that secular schooling should be law. But exposure to bullshit helps protect some people from different types of bullshit. More protection for open debate of all kinds is what's needed.

That bitch that @Yoni pointed out - if it wasn't potentially criminal to preach to people the way she does then she'd be most likely doing it in the open and would get laughed at in the way that we laugh at the batshit christian corners who tell us we're all going to hell if we don't obey god's laws.
Well, she's going beyond preaching, incitement to violence has long been a criminal act in the UK, even before everything went full Winston Smith.
 

Raven

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What are you talking about now?

Or did you actually think I was serious about nuking them...are you on the spectrum by the way?
 

Raven

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No I don't. But any "solution" you propose has to not be batshit mental.

Lets look at your solution, not too deeply (because we really don't need to). Regardless of legality, you take people's kids off them, send them back to <insert place> and then what?

They stay there? Just accept that? They don't hate the west even more? They don't spread their bile in a place where people are ripe for radicalisation in an area where there aren't the moderate voices to counter them? They don't come back? Violently? The rest of the world wouldn't look at us like a country of imbeciles?

Simple solutions to complex problems, like bombing Iraq and removing Saddam, create even more problems, like ISIS. And you're the type who loves to nuke from orbit...
What are you talking about now?

Or did you actually think I was serious about nuking them...are you on the spectrum by the way? Do you take everything people say figuratively?

Just to do you a favour and clear it up for you

We could drop a few on the region and leave them to it.
I AM BEING REALLY SERIOUS

There, you can now move away from centering on a completely irrelevant part of the discussion and get off your soapbox and answer the questions.

Do you think people that incite and indoctrinate children to violence are fit to bring those children up? Do you think people that want to kill us for our way of life and want some backward medieval set of laws to be in place should live in a country that doesn't want that shit, or a country that does?
 

Ormorof

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Taking away a kids parents and putting them into care == great way to make kids hate the society that did this

Your solution would create as many problems as it would solve (if not more)
 

Scouse

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Well, she's going beyond preaching, incitement to violence has long been a criminal act in the UK, even before everything went full Winston Smith.
I agree. But if she could do that on the street she'd get argued with - rather than holding secret meetings preaching to the semi converted.



Get off your soapbox and answer the questions.

Do you think people that incite and indoctrinate children to violence are fit to bring those children up? Do you think people that want to kill us and want some backward medieval set of laws to be in place should live in a country that doesn't want that shit, or a country that does?
I've already answered those rather silly questions...
 

Raven

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Taking away a kids parents and putting them into care == great way to make kids hate the society that did this

Your solution would create as many problems as it would solve (if not more)
No it wouldn't. The kids would grow up being able to see both sides of the coin, rather than sitting in a darkened room being brainwashed by a mad person (who to be fair was probably also abused as a child) Abuse like this is cyclical.
 

Ormorof

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No it wouldn't. The kids would grow up being able to see both sides of the coin, rather than sitting in a darkened room being brainwashed by a mad person (who to be fair was probably also abused as a child) Abuse like this is cyclical.
And kids who go into care end up enlightened how exactly?

Who will pay for it? Will putting all these partially brainwashed kids into a system full of vulnerable people have no consequences?
 

Raven

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Perhaps they can use some of the billions spent on surveillance and weapons?

And probably far less consequences than just leaving them to grow to adulthood wanting nothing more than to kill people.
 

Raven

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Ah, the facepam machine gun, the point in every discussion where you know Scouse has lost the plot.
 

Scouse

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Lost the will to "discuss" with you more like.
 

DaGaffer

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I don't want to live on this fucking planet anymore.
Oh it gets worse; you're supposed to read these things with your child for their homework, so it gets the parents to do the indoctrinating. The problem I have is that I can't tell the school to fuck off until my other kid starts next September or they could block him getting in to the school; but once he's in, all bets are off; another father (also a Brit, lol) has just forced a Catholic school in Limerick to stop indoctrinating his daughter under the Constitution, and I'll be taking the same approach.
 

Big G

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I can't find the words :(.
 

Yoni

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I don't understand @DaGaffer I went to my convent catholic boarding school 30 years ago. 2 points the Old Testament was rarely taught (except to highlight that these stories were a way to help the people of the day understand how they came to be)

Secondly RE was used as a tool for debate ie the moral to the story, whether the story could be applied to a modern world. We were actively encouraged to question the modern day application. Let's take birth control... The bible tells us that having a child is a gift (I maintain that this is valid as I am not able to) nowhere in the New or Old testiment does it state that the ONLY form of contraception available at the time 'withdrawal' is evil. All it really states is that in the Old Testament some bloke married his brothers widow and because he didn't want to share his inheritance with a child from his brothers widow he withdrew, denying her a 'gift'. In today's situation the Catholic Church would annul the marriage and the woman would be able to if she wanted to procreate with someone who wanted a child. What was debated more extensively in my class was whether Sex was purely for procreation OR for pleasure...

Why oh why are those teaching this subject at your daughters school applying 0AD logic in a 21st century world... I am quite horrified
 

Big G

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I'll never forget sex education in 5th year (not sure what that is in English terms, but I was 15/16) at a Catholic school and being told that it would be about "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve".
 

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