London Underground shut down

[yaruar]

The flat in Stockwell was under surveilance, the special branch watching it would have been expecting suspects to leave it and travel across London.

In a high profile case like this, with practically unlimited resources, how would you prepare the nearest tube station? Get some undercover officers down there!

From the news reports, it sounds like the only officers involved were the 20 or so following him!

It wasn't even a flat, it was the entrance to a block of flats down in Tulse Hill which they were keeping an eye on. Which means it could have been one of 100 odd people living in there.

I'd be interested to see in this case just how many of the police at the tube were uniformed and how many were plain clothed. Personally if it's more of the latter i don't blame him for running. If i was back down in Stockwell and a group of 20 scruffy men waves a gun at me and shouted something you'd be damn sure i'd sprint into the station and jump on the nearest train.

 

[Turamber]

Of course it will happen again. Having visited Israel a couple of times, and coming within a hairsbreadth of being blown up myself, its a matter of fact that the security forces will sometimes kill innocent people in their attempts to protect the public.

It is not an exact science and no matter how many reviews, tribunals and internal investigations will not change that fact.

 

[rynnor]

If i was back down in Stockwell and a group of 20 scruffy men waves a gun at me and shouted something you'd be damn sure i'd sprint into the station and jump on the nearest train.

From the way they are keeping the details out of the news I suspect it probably happened like you said above. Were these actually police officers as well - I dont think that that is certain either.

Btw - People jump over the ticket machines everyday for those who dont use the underground much - its not particularly difficult and the London Underground staff dont bother to chase em anymore.

 

[adams901]

It's a shame it happened but short of waiting for someone to blow themselves up I doubt there is anyway you can confirm whether a person is a suicide bomber or not

I think they made the right decision given the circumstances, I am sure this thread would have taken a whole different direction if the police had done nothing and the guy blew himself up killing a carriage full of people.

 

[nath]

I'm with Tom - without knowing what exactly happened who knows who was right/wrong. Regardless though, the guy didn't deserve to die and it is a shame. That doesn't mean the police were necessarily wrong to shoot him. There should be an investigation to find out if this was avoidable and if so, make sure it never ever happens again. If it was unavoidable given the circumstances then it is tragic but if they genuinely had reason to believe he was planning on blowing himself up, what else could they do?

 

[Paradroid]

Police = Judge, trial, jury, and, executioner ... imo.

...
If it was unavoidable given the circumstances then it is tragic but if they genuinely had reason to believe he was planning on blowing himself up, what else could they do?

Why did they let him ride a bus if they thought he was a terrorist with a bomb?
If he really was a suicide bomber then, were they effective in their jobs by letting him get from the bus and down into the subway?

So now, if you run from the police (ie a relatively minor crime of resisting arrest), you can be caught, restrained, and, immediately executed if the police "suspect" you're a terrrorist suicide bomber (ie arab/muslim carrying a bag) - all without any evidence whatsoever. That's Judge Dread country ffs!

I think it might have been more believable if he was shot whilst running away into the subway, but they had caught him and they shot him while in custody (if only for a few seconds) - he was already at his "target", but no bomb.


Tube survivor Bruce Lait Linky.

...
He and Crystal were helped out of the carriage. As they made their way out, a policeman pointed out where the bomb had been. It was like a huge electricity surge which knocked us out and burst our eardrums.

"The policeman said 'mind that hole, that's where the bomb was'. The metal was pushed upwards as if the bomb was underneath the train. They seem to think the bomb was left in a bag, but I don't remember anybody being where the bomb was, or any bag," he said.
...

Any Photoshop experts in da house? Linky.


Police state sucks.

:touch:

 

[Turamber]

No, what sucks are the armchair critics. Whatever the security forces do they will be criticised. It's a shame the guy died, but he acted very foolishly and gave the police no option.

 

[Tom]

Any Photoshop experts in da house? Linky.


Police state sucks.

:touch:

The halo around the cap is simply a poor CCD on the camera. All video cameras do this. The bars that are 'in front' of the suspects, well without seeing the precediing and following frames of video (and I suspect that they're a second or two apart at least) its difficult to say, but it seems obvious to me that its not the railing, and it is part of his clothing, since the angle of the railing changes direction.

In other words, its a bullshit article by a conspiracy theorist.

 

[Deebs]

Interesting opinions here.

About time I posted mine.

My thoughts go out to the dead man's family and the officer(s) who shot him. Yes it was a tragic mistake but one that is bound to happen again. Tom, you state we need to find out and make sure it never happens again, good luck, just look at the security forces around the world that have been trying for years. IT WILL NOT HAPPEN.

Collateral damage is a fact that will never go away with today's procedures, technology.

Scruffy men waving guns, surely these scruffy men also had badges. Why did these scruffy men, in a tube station packed, only wanna single out him and noone else?

He was foolish to run, period. In today's climate within London, anyone who shouts "Police, stop" and brandishes a badge, I will turn to stone for them on the spot. Everyone needs to heed from this and do as our Security Services say, then we can get closer to removing collateral damage. Until then, live with it or move to the outback in Australia.

I am 110% behind the Security Services, I believe we are seen to be soft, hopefully this incident will show some people that we arn't.

God save the Queen.

 

[Lazarus]

Agree with Deebs (well apart from the last sentence)

He was foolish to run.

 

[Deebs]

Agree with Deebs (well apart from the last sentence)

He was foolish to run.

I don't want a queen but I can't use God Bless England as it the american sign of defiance, God Save the Queen is ours isnt it?

 

[Lazarus]

you can use whatever you want deebs as :

1. Its a free country.
2. These are your boards.

but nothing in the CoC says I have too agree

 

[Deebs]

you can use whatever you want deebs as :

1. Its a free country.
2. These are your boards.

but nothing in the CoC says I have too agree

Hehe,

God wouldn't want you to agree, but I do think the monarchy suck donkey arse and we need another saying. Maybe there is but I can't recall it.

 

[Sissyfoo]

I read somewhere that he grew up in one of the many slums in Brazil where people get whacked left, right and centre. It was probably second nature for him to run when he saw a bunch of armed guys running down on him regardless of whether they had badges or not. I guess it was just bad luck that they picked out someone who was more likely than most to run. Not that I sympathise with the police; 7 times in the head? Wtf is that about? Too much caffeine or something? I, for one, don't feel any safer with this new Execution Branch mooching around.

 

[Deebs]

I read somewhere that he grew up in one of the many slums in Brazil where people get whacked left, right and centre. It was probably second nature for him to run when he saw a bunch of armed guys running down on him regardless of whether they had badges or not. I guess it was just bad luck that they picked out someone who was more likely than most to run. Not that I sympathise with the police; 7 times in the head? Wtf is that about? Too much caffeine or something? I, for one, don't feel any safer with this new Execution Branch mooching around.

It's a shoot to kill policy, you do what you need to do. If I was the officer and thought that the person I was shooting at had an explosives belt on I would do the same.

SO19 are trained by the SAS, the best in the world. This is how the professionals stop someone dead with NO chance of actively any trigger. It is their life they are taking the chance with, let them have the right to protect their own lives as well as our own.

 

[Deebs]

Oh and before someone spouts "What about the illegal immigrants/aslyum seekers who would run away for fear of being caught?"

My answer: THEY SHOULDN'T FUCKING BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

 

[Tom]

The Queen rocks. Leave her alone, or I'm telling.

 

[Sissyfoo]

It's a shoot to kill policy, you do what you need to do. If I was the officer and thought that the person I was shooting at had an explosives belt on I would do the same.

SO19 are trained by the SAS, the best in the world. This is how the professionals stop someone dead with NO chance of actively any trigger. It is their life they are taking the chance with, let them have the right to protect their own lives as well as our own.

Not arguing about that...I just think that 7 shots to the head is a little...OTT. 1 bullet is usually adequate, 2 bullets will do the job for sure but 7? I always thought that the tactics they used were a little bit questionable and the whole thing just didn't seem right. I'd explain myself more but I'm eating toast and that takes priority. Tbh, I just think that whoever shot him just paniced. Am I the only one who thinks it slightly odd that you would alert a potential suicide bomber by charging him down? You'd want to get as close as possible (and I mean 'right up his asshole' close) before letting him know you were there? Giving him the chance to run also gave him a chance to blow himself up at any time in the station whilst he was on the run.

I'm also curious about what it was that made them think he had explosives wrapped around his belt though. He obviously didn't so what was it that made them pop a cap in his head? Was it walkman wires or a wallet-sized bulge? I'm sure they did what they felt was right at the time but if, hypothetically speaking, they were to bundle ME to the ground and I landed on something hard such as my mobile then my instinct would be to move it with my hand and it could be seen as a potential threat, maybe?

I'm not really arguing before anyone gets incensed and flames me, I'm just questioning these things because I'm sure I'm not the only islamicy/muslimy looking person in England who is thinking along the same lines as me.

 

[Lazarus]

Not arguing about that...I just think that 7 shots to the head is a little...OTT. 1 bullet is usually adequate, 2 bullets will do the job for sure but 7? .

allegedly and I cant (or wont) verify this, someone with >20% brain capacity can still reflexively detonate an explosive.

they were just making sure.

Playing devils advocate - if he was dead with 2 shots, why not add another 5. They are not gonna make him deader.

 

[Ukle]

Yup its to do with the ensuring the brain was fully dead and with the low calibar guns they were using they need to put a lot more than just one shot to ensure the kill. Now if they were using the standard MP5's instead of the pistols probably only a couple of shots would of been enough.

 

[dysfunction]

The Chief of Police from Israel was on the TV last night. They have had plenty of experience with Suicide Bombers.

He admitted that their police force still make mistakes and end up killing an innocent thought to be a suicide bomber.

The UK police force is one of the best and most professional in the world but have not had to deal with suicide bombers before. They have just been introduced to the suicide bomber so they are bound to make mistakes. I dont blame them for their mistake unless they knew he was an innocent man and killed him anyway. And I seriously doubt this was the case.

They will learn from their mistakes but this sort of thing can NEVER be completely avoided. They are only people after all.

 

[Chilly]

people get shot in the head all the time and live - its all a matter of where the bullet goes. so 7 will 99.9% ensure deadness I suppose.

 

[Dommers]

BOOM HEADSHOT!!!!
Everyone knows u run faster with a knife!

 

[nath]

I don't want a queen but I can't use God Bless England as it the american sign of defiance, God Save the Queen is ours isnt it?

I think having any "phrase" that displays patriotism is generally a bad idea. Infact I think patriotism full stop is a bad idea. I think it's responsible for far more bad things than good.

 

[Bodhi]

I don't want a queen but I can't use God Bless England as it the american sign of defiance, God Save the Queen is ours isnt it?

Plus there's a few people north of the border who might get upset.....

 

[Louster]

No, what sucks are the armchair critics. Whatever the security forces do they will be criticised. It's a shame the guy died, but he acted very foolishly and gave the police no option.

I admire and envy how you, and virtually everyone else here, magically/telepathically know all the intricate details of this incident which allow you to make such a judgement.

 

[Sissyfoo]

I think having any "phrase" that displays patriotism is generally a bad idea. Infact I think patriotism full stop is a bad idea. I think it's responsible for far more bad things than good.

It's good for convincing slack-jawed yokels to grab a gun and help liberate the oppressed oil fields in the middle east! Yay! Free the oil!

How many more barrels of oil would have mysteriously disappeared, or been raped and tortured under the sadistic regime of Saddam? So sad...

Er, yea, anyway...thanks for clearing up my queries regarding 7-instead of-1 bullet holes.

I also think that 'God save the Queen' is a bit of an anachronism. We live in a multicultural country with many different religions so I think it should be reflected in our national anthem and little chirpy patriotic catchphrases.

"God, Allah, Jehovah, Buddha, Lord Krishna and Yoda save the queen!"

Sounds good, huh? Of course, there may be some dispute over which deity gets to go first. Alphabetic order might irritate the Jedi followers and order of extreme pwnage would probably annoy anyone who *wasn't* a jedi (because, let's face it, Yoda would kick everyone's ass).

 

[Deebs]

Hence why I said God save the queen doesn't fit.

Also, what is wrong with Patroism? There are some things, believe it or not, that this group of countries did/do for which I am proud of them.

The United Kingdom of Great Britain is a great entity.

 

[Sissyfoo]

It is a double-edged sword (or whatever that phrase is); it can unite a country in times of hardship and promote unity or it can drive them to acts of insane brutality.

 

[throdgrain]

Im proud of our country. I am patriotic too, damn right.
Lack of patriotism, and to a point lack of religion even (im not religious) is partly to blame for our countrys problems in my opinion.
You can bet them suicide bombers are religious What will do we have to stand up to them? Not a lot really. A lot of over-educated people with far too much time on thier hands deciding the rights and wrongs of the world on a purely intelectual basis, which counts for nothing in the eyes of other, less educated people, with far less time on thier hands.
Life just isnt black and white I hear my pc friends cry in outrage, and of course they are right, from our way of thinking of course life isnt black and white.
Unfortunately to other people it is.
On an aside, I see that Enoch Powells speech of 1968 is bandied about now by people far more right wing than me. How we have been taught to vilify that man, and how wrong he was. Probably...