London Underground shut down

[Louster]

Oh, man. So even my list of "facts" could possibly be completely wrong.

 

[Marc]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4157892.stm

 

[Will]

Look, its the same link again...

 

[Tom]

Theres always a motive behind a leak. I'll wait for the official verdict, thanks.

 

[Louster]

Sure, but check the picture. You can see the bottom of his normal, unpadded denim jacket. There's one piece of misinformation destroyed right there.

Edit: Infact, ITV has a better picture available; the BBC seem to have cropped the important bit out. Link.

 

[Calaen]

I must say after reading the first reports/eye witness accounts I thought wrong place wrong time. But after seeing the guy lying dead in that picture I am left thinking holy shit...

Cant help feel for the guys parents now tbh. Nothing about him in that picture matches the image I had in my own mind about what he looked like.

 

[Tom]

Who knows when that photograph was taken though? Perhaps after officers had removed items of his clothing.

Before this 'leak', many people were saying 'dozy cun7', 'idiot' etc for his apparent running from the police, but surprise surprise nothing is that simple.

 

[Calaen]

I doubt he would have been wearing a Jacket on top of the Denim jacket tbh.

 

[Louster]

There's another report from ITN (can anyone explain why there're ITN and ITV news sites? I thought ITN was just ITV's news branch.) here, which claims:

A document describes CCTV footage, which shows Mr de Menezes entered Stockwell station at a "normal walking pace" and descended slowly on an escalator.

So obviously if CCTV footage does exist, that'll be the way to clear most of this up.

Edit: yeah exactly Tom. It's tempting to be smug about having this amount of vindication but jesus, I'd have been happier without it frankly, given the possibility now that this has just been a complete, utter, horrifyingly idiotic fuckup.

 

[Tom]

I doubt he would have been wearing a Jacket on top of the Denim jacket tbh.

Looks more like a shirt to me tbh.

 

[Calaen]

It may well be a shirt, but rather than fuck around in the dark, why dont they just release the cctv footage showing him either running or walking and wearing what he was wearing.

Had they just come out and said look it was a major fucking ball drop on our behalf we are sorry I could have accepted it, but the people involved in this incident are meant to be the people right people for the job, if they are not going to follow the procedures that have been put in place to avoid mistakes they might aswell give me a gun, pay me stupid money and let me shoot random people that I belive to be a threat to the general public.

 

[Tom]

They shouldn't release anything that would prejudice the official enquiry. Its a fairly basic concept.

Once again, based on unconfirmed reports and leaked evidence, people are making assumptions. Why is it so difficult for people to use 'if' and 'maybe' rather than 'did' and 'happened'?

 

[`mongoose]

If that account is true there is no way that was normal police it has to be the anti terrorist unit SRR who work for MI5 and MI6.

Agreed.

I thought our police normally carried smgs/rifles rather than pistols?

either way - it's not good news. It just gives the fucktards more things to throw at the government. At the end of the day giving worried over worked officers guns the day after the bombing along with a shoot to kill warrant was perhaps a knee jerk reaction.

I feel for this fella's parents and the police force in general. It's just their luck imo - we finally get a strong response on terrorism and the first thing that happens is that an innocent man is shot dead.

M

 

[Calaen]

They shouldn't release anything that would prejudice the official enquiry. Its a fairly basic concept.

Once again, based on unconfirmed reports and leaked evidence, people are making assumptions. Why is it so difficult for people to use 'if' and 'maybe' rather than 'did' and 'happened'?

They could end all doubt in the publics eyes though if they just released the footage proving that their reasoning for shooting the guy was correct at the time, or proving that they reacted incorrectly. Enquiry over.

It does not take this length of time to get the people involved interviewed and the footage/evidence gathered to be able to make a judgement on what happened.

I doubt many people will believe what is released anyway unless it comes with the cctv footage.

 

[dysfunction]

Oh, man. So even my list of "facts" could possibly be completely wrong.

Yeah quite shocking that eh!

If what has now been reported is true its a terrible situation that the police have put themselves in.

It wouldnt surprise me if someone was found guilty of murder...

 

[Will]

It wouldnt surprise me if someone was found guilty of murder...

Lets just hope the firearms officers don't go on strike again in protest at people even considering that idea.

 

[Louster]

Yeah quite shocking that eh!

Not really. My "facts" list was based on ignoring eye-witness crap and making the optimistic (but seemingly reasonable at the time) assumption that the police weren't outright lying. It looks like they quite possibly were. Just goes to show that making assumptions without realising is easy, and reinforces the point that media reports, no matter how definitive they sound, are not to be trusted.

And yeah, that does include this one.

 

[rynnor]

In the economist the other week it stated that there had been over 250 individual cases up to the end of july where the police thought they had identified a suicide bomber and 7 where they came within seconds of using lethal force on the suspect - all of whom were in fact completely innocent.

I personally will be happier once the armed police are gone from the busy stations - if they open up with an automatic weapon inside a packed train station they could kill more people than a bomber.

The economist also spotted a number of unidentified plain clothes officers toting weapons that I cannot easily identify - they arent the standard police smg's they look like military weapons...

The other thing they seem to be forgetting are 'dead mens switches' - its not hard to create a switch that triggers explosives when released as would happen when the bomber was killed.

I also dont see how having policemen with machine guns fits in with 'business as usual'?

 

[~Yuckfou~]

Can't see that it makes any difference, the illegal immigrant is dead. No amount of diagnostics will bring him back to life.
We cannot change our policies because 1 or 2 cops fucked up.
Does nobody remember the faked "iraqis in the military wagon" pics then?

 

[Calaen]

Can't see that it makes any difference, the illegal immigrant is dead. No amount of diagnostics will bring him back to life.
We cannot change our policies because 1 or 2 cops fucked up.
Does nobody remember the faked "iraqis in the military wagon" pics then?

Im not about changing policies but if they have fucked just be honest and say.

 

[Louster]

Can't see that it makes any difference, the illegal immigrant is dead. No amount of diagnostics will bring him back to life.
We cannot change our policies because 1 or 2 cops fucked up.
Does nobody remember the faked "iraqis in the military wagon" pics then?

Laffo.
It makes plenty of difference, at the very least as to whether the "1 or 2 cops who fucked up" are charged with murder or not. Also, how exactly does his immigration status play any part in this? It was only brought up as a possible explanation as to why he ran away - if it now turns out that he didn't, how is it at all relevant? Unless you're trying to evoke some "us/them" nationalistic nonsense.

 

[~Yuckfou~]

Laffo.
It makes plenty of difference, at the very least as to whether the "1 or 2 cops who fucked up" are charged with murder or not. Also, how exactly does his immigration status play any part in this? It was only brought up as a possible explanation as to why he ran away - if it now turns out that he didn't, how is it at all relevant? Unless you're trying to evoke some "us/them" nationalistic nonsense.

Putting 2 guys who are putting their own lives at risk to save yours in prison helps how? We all make mistakes, in my profession it might mean i don't get a deal. For an F1 driver it could mean serious injury or death. For one of these military types someone gets shot, maybe them.
His immigration status is pertinent because he should not have been here. If he had not been here he would not have been shot.
Count up the number of people killed in recent years even months by nutter suicide bombers, in this country and elsewhere. I would much rather that we stop this crap however necessary than potentially let 1,000's more get killed.
Yes I am nationalistic, for which I make no apologies.

 

[Louster]

Have you even read the article? "A mistake" is a ridiculous understatement, if what it says turns out to be the truth. Putting people who've made "mistakes" such as this in prison helps us by ensuring that we no longer have a couple of complete lunatics running around waving guns (and discharging them) at random people.

And sure, stopping terrorism is a good thing. But do you not realise that having things like this happen is exactly what terrorism is about?

Saying that "he shouldn't have been here, and if he wasn't here he wouldn't have been shot" is ridiculous. Again, assuming that this leaked report is anywhere near approaching the truth, and adding in yet another "if" in exactly the same manner as you have done, it would have simply been the next non-white person to exit that building who would have been shot while sitting on the train.

 

[Deadmanwalking]

I personally will be happier once the armed police are gone from the busy stations - if they open up with an automatic weapon inside a packed train station they could kill more people than a bomber.

Because of course all police fire off their weapons like you see in American movies. Yeah, all that training and stuff means nothing, it's all just a cover so they can blaze away in crowded places and feel like rambo.

And all this "open up" stuff. You mean IF they started firing randomly with an automatic weapon (Set to automatic) they would kill people. Well no shit sherlock. That's like why... they don't.

His immigration status is pertinent because he should not have been here. If he had not been here he would not have been shot.

So if people believe that we shouldn't be in Iraq, that means that all the soldiers who are dieing out there, SHOULD die?

Hooray for some misguided and very worrying nationalistic bullshit.

 

[Penguin]

So if people believe that we shouldn't be in Iraq, that means that all the soldiers who are dieing out there, SHOULD die?

Hooray for some misguided and very worrying nationalistic bullshit.

If he had not been here he would not have been shot.

If we had not of gone to Iraq the soldiers would not be dieing.

At what point did he say that he was meant to die because he stayed in Briton?

 

[Chilly]

How about we all just hold off until the enquirey returns its result? The press are reporting anything they can and for all we know it may be wildly out of context. That picture could "prove" all sorts of crazy theories if you wanted it to. It's a shit photo with no background information. As tom has pointed out it may have been from a while after he was shot and he may have been moved/altered for that photo (which looks about as official as the dvd rip of starwars III with the numbers accross the top).

Meh.
Poor bastards in the police force have a hard enough time as it is, I agree that this was seemingly a terrible mistake but if we dont trust in our protectors we may as well just revert to being fucking savages.

Humans make mistakes, sometimes they are nothing, sometimes they are world moving.

 

[Will]

From Channel 4 News

Death of an innocent man
===========================

More leads today on the leaked information suggesting the Metropolitan Police bungling the operation which resulted in the shooting dead of an innocent man suspected of being a tube bomber.

Jean Charles de Menezes was repeatedly shot through the head at point blank range whilst being held down by another undercover officer. It looks like a very deep mess for police and has sparked calls for Commissioner Sir Ian Blair to resign. We have asked for an interview but unsurprisingly, the Scotland Yard press office is declining all bids just now.

Further, the Yard has admitted in a statement that they wanted the Police Complaints investigation to be delayed into this shooting, but that had been overruled by Charles Clarke, the Home Secretary. We'll have more as we get it.

I don't think the police want the inquiry to be pushed through while the story is still newsworthy.

 

[rynnor]

Because of course all police fire off their weapons like you see in American movies. Yeah, all that training and stuff means nothing, it's all just a cover so they can blaze away in crowded places and feel like rambo.

And all this "open up" stuff. You mean IF they started firing randomly with an automatic weapon (Set to automatic) they would kill people. Well no shit sherlock. That's like why... they don't.

I dont mean the chance of one going psycho I mean if they decide that they should use one in such a place you are going to see a lot of 'collateral damage' - automatic weapons are'nt about accuracy they are about hosing down an area - if that area is a busy train station then its gonna get messy.

And if they didnt think they might have to use one in such a place they wouldnt be carrying one.

 

[rynnor]

Poor bastards in the police force have a hard enough time as it is, I agree that this was seemingly a terrible mistake but if we dont trust in our protectors we may as well just revert to being fucking savages.

Humans make mistakes, sometimes they are nothing, sometimes they are world moving.

I dont blame the officers who shot him - they were told he was a suicide bomber and they did what they were trained to do. The alarming bit is the way the system that should have prevented a random person from being wrongly identified as a bomber failed totally.

This is a failure at a higher level and this flawed system is still being used today - thats why its important that the Police authority dont get to sweep it under the carpet or try to blame it on the officers concerned.

If the police are going to take on the authority of judge/jury and executioner then they sure as hell have to get their facts straight first!

 

[Chilly]

Aye it is all a bit of a mess and lets hope they can identify where the problems occured and fix them so this never happens again.