Is this what society has come to?

[Wij]

Always good:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMBzfUj5zsg

A lot of truth there. Incidentally, my son’s friend who is ‘totally gay’ has being dating someone who has now decided she wants to stop identifying as a boy. She never dressed like one. Long blonde hair and make up etc. She now says she only identified as a boy to date him.

He can’t come to terms with the fact he might be bisexual, despite dating a girl with tits and a fanny for a year.

Kids.

 

[Scouse]

Easy to solve tho - and not an excuse for having penguin on a passport for transgender non-athletes.

 

[Scouse]

Always good:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMBzfUj5zsg

Yep. 100%. But uncontroversial really. All he's doing is saying what 90% of people think - including people round here.

Kids are fluid everything and faddy as fuck: Check.
Gender reassignment surgery/puberty blockers for kids is wrong: Check.
Questioning things is OK: Check.
Nobody gives a shit what adults do to themselves and are pretty much accomodating to them: Check.

Other than in a small number of outlier cases we're pretty much all on the same page.


Edit: We need to shoot whichever load balancer's being a dick

 

[Wij]

What a steaming pile of bollocks:

I don’t feel like I was born into the wrong body. There’s not a right or wrong way to be trans | Madison Godfrey

Madison Godfrey inhabits gender beyond a binary, but transition isn’t what makes them trans

www.theguardian.com

 

[Scouse]

What a steaming pile of bollocks:

I don’t feel like I was born into the wrong body. There’s not a right or wrong way to be trans | Madison Godfrey

Madison Godfrey inhabits gender beyond a binary, but transition isn’t what makes them trans

www.theguardian.com

Is it the lack of specificity that pisses you off?

I read it and was struck by only one thing strongly - that they don't want to be defined in a binary fashion. Everything else is up for grabs. Transitioning, not transitioning, whatever - just don't define them male or female. That's seemingly the only commonality.

It seems to me that if we take M or F off passports that's 90% of the job done tbpfh.

 

[Embattle]

No thanks.

 

[Wij]

Is it the lack of specificity that pisses you off?

I read it and was struck by only one thing strongly - that they don't want to be defined in a binary fashion. Everything else is up for grabs. Transitioning, not transitioning, whatever - just don't define them male or female. That's seemingly the only commonality.

It seems to me that if we take M or F off passports that's 90% of the job done tbpfh.

It's the lack of anything coherent and meaningful that pisses me off. Literal nonsense.

"Gender euphoria is not only experienced by trans folk; it can be a community act, it can be wearing a new jumpsuit, it can be changing from the soprano to alto parts when you sing your favourite song on the freeway. My early journey towards non-binary joy involved eyeliner pencils, boxer briefs and crossing the road while holding hands with someone I loved. Many of these steps felt like dance moves; new, juicy ways I learned to move my body and twist my hips, to grind air and frolic in front of my own mirrors. Rather than changing my body, I was changing the ways I inhabited my body."

So both trans and non-binary mean whatever you want it to mean. The only fixed thing is that they make you more special than 'regular' people and put you a rung or two up on the oppression ladder despite being white and middle-class.

I can't be boxed in as 'female' because I choose not to shave my underarm hair is transparent nonsense. Sexist nonsense too. The privileged whining of people who don't have any real problems.

 

[Scouse]

So both trans and non-binary mean whatever you want it to mean.

Yes, pretty much. That's OK isn't it?

 

[Scouse]

Posting problems

The only fixed thing is that they make you more special than 'regular' people

I don't think so. I don't think that says that anywhere does it?

put you a rung or two up on the oppression ladder despite being white and middle-class.

In general, they're asking to not have to put a binary sex down on their fucking passport apps. Yes, it's a small oppression - but oppression is felt most keenly by the oppressed. So yes, they're a higher (but small) rung up on that ladder than you.

So why not just let them put fucking penguin on their passports and be done with it? It's not a very big ask is it? That's the sort of main ask really.

And we're talking sport and fucking bogs as an excuse to deny them that sort of stuff. Why not let them have their passport shite, and we can sort the sport and bogs out later?

 

[Wij]

Don't call me female because my definition of female is incorrect and bullshit seems a pretty stupid reason to do anything tbh.

Sorry - you are wrong - get over yourself, seems like a better move long-term.

Letting people move themselves up the oppression ladder just by MAKING THINGS UP sets a bad precedent and takes this piss out of people with actual problems.

 

[Wij]

Yes, pretty much. That's OK isn't it?

No. That makes it meaningless. Something with no fixed meaning is just wibble. It can't be used to justify anything if it signifies nothing. It's just noise.

 

[Scouse]

No. That makes it meaningless. Something with no fixed meaning is just wibble. It can't be used to justify anything if it signifies nothing. It's just noise.

Sorry @Wij - it's a problem with our language, nothing else.

Their gender (not sex, I'm not getting into that again) cannot be adequately expressed as "male" or "female". That's uncontroversial in other cultures, just not in our judao-christian based one.

Your position is one of ZERO accomodation - even if it doesn't affect you. What can allowing people to put "wibble" on a passport do to you?

Frankly, we should have a few more, separate, words for gender - and then most of the "problem" will go away.

 

[DaGaffer]

Sorry @Wij - it's a problem with our language, nothing else.

Their gender (not sex, I'm not getting into that again) cannot be adequately expressed as "male" or "female". That's uncontroversial in other cultures, just not in our judao-christian based one.

Your position is one of ZERO accomodation - even if it doesn't affect you. What can allowing people to put "wibble" on a passport do to you?

Frankly, we should have a few more, separate, words for gender - and then most of the "problem" will go away.

Having to second guess the feelings of strangers, who can change those feelings at the drop of a hair colour change, is fucking stupid.

 

[Wij]

Agreed. When I use the pronouns he or her it's because I have judged your sex, not your gender, which is bollocks. I am not referring to 'gender' at all. Deliberately misinterpreting my language in order to get offended is a cunt move.

 

[Scouse]

Having to second guess the feelings of strangers, who can change those feelings at the drop of a hair colour change, is fucking stupid.

Why do you have to second guess anything? What are you actually being asked to do?

This is about letting them put penguin on their passports and driving licences. As far as I'm concerned, that's not an action on me.

After that, it's about us going "what about gays in the military - they'll all try to bum us" "what about toilets" and "what about prisons" in an effort to stop anything happening to accomodate them.

Agreed. When I use the pronouns he or her it's because I have judged your sex, not your gender, which is bollocks. I am not referring to 'gender' at all. Deliberately misinterpreting my language in order to get offended is a cunt move.

Yep. I think the pronoun thing is particularly galling too. Which is why I said it's a language problem first and foremost.

Other languages have different words for different people - which are more expressive than simply "him" and "her". Some languages are even gendered. Mr Shakespear invented 180 words apparently. Pulled them out of his ass. And they're commonplace usage today.

We should do that with trans people. Then we can get back to calling Timothy his preferred name, Mandy, which is sort of stuff we've been doing for ages, and we can stop caring again.

Of course, if we weren't all on twitter and stuck in the middle of a raging culture war then most of this would have stopped annoying the shit out of people ages ago.

90% of it is just not a "big deal" - and focussing on the difficult areas is just an excuse to not solve 90% of the problem.

 

[Wij]

Their passports record their sex not their 'gender'. If gender is all fine and a different thing and uncontroversial why is anyone wanting to change what is on their passports?

 

[Wij]

Their passports record their sex not their 'gender'. If gender is all fine and a different thing and uncontroversial why is anyone wanting to change what is on their passports?

And if they say 'gender' it's because we were prudes and didn't want to use the word sex so used 'gender' as a synonym. But now we are told they mean different things and this always recorded their biological sex, not the contents of their mind.

So, to avoid confusion, all documents should be more specific and refer to sex. No one needs to worry about gender all all, which could change every 5 minutes so is pointless to put on printed documents. That OK? 'Gender' can be their own private business. No one needs or wants to know.

 

[Wij]

Sorry @Wij - it's a problem with our language, nothing else.

Actually it's a problem of logic, not language. Something without meaning cannot be used in any form of argument. Therefore it cannot be used to prove, for instance, oppression.

 

[Embattle]

Well clearly we also need to look into Cables, I mean will I get in trouble for asking if it is a male or female end they require?

 

[Wij]

Well clearly we also need to look into Cables, I mean will I get in trouble for asking if it is a male or female end they require?

Females can have cocks apparently so the whole system transphobic nonsense.

 

[Scouse]

Actually it's a problem of logic, not language. Something without meaning cannot be used in any form of argument. Therefore it cannot be used to prove, for instance, oppression.

It's not without meaning - it's just a spectrum of attitude that can change over time. But it's meaningful and specifically NOT some things.

If you're being forced into defining yourself as something you're definitely NOT then that could feel oppressive.

Frankly, simple administrative changes could make a whole world of difference and more than that - give us better, more interesting, more useful data on the makeup of the human species, how it changes over time, etc. etc.

Why wouldn't we do the noddy easy stuff I'm talking about?

 

[Scouse]

Females can have cocks apparently so the whole system transphobic nonsense.

Nah. You're transphobic.

You're so outraged by simple noddy solutions to 90% of the problem that you're dismissive of even the easy shit that would make a small but significant percentage of people feel a whole lot better, at zero cost to yourself.

Even if it's illogical to do that, we do lots of illogical things simply to make other people feel happy. It's kind of part of the human existence - and in many ways the compassion we show to minority groups shows the level of our sociological development.

We don't have to terrorise women to enact most of what the trans community would like. There's no line that needs to be crossed. And if you weren't basing your whole opinion on the extreme examples of wankers on twitter then maybe you'd be more pragmatic about it.

 

[Wij]

Nah. You're transphobic.

You're so outraged by simple noddy solutions to 90% of the problem that you're dismissive of even the easy shit that would make a small but significant percentage of people feel a whole lot better, at zero cost to yourself.

Even if it's illogical to do that, we do lots of illogical things simply to make other people feel happy. It's kind of part of the human existence - and in many ways the compassion we show to minority groups shows the level of our sociological development.

We don't have to terrorise women to enact most of what the trans community would like. There's no line that needs to be crossed. And if you weren't basing your whole opinion on the extreme examples of wankers on twitter then maybe you'd be more pragmatic about it.

You keep telling us that sex and gender are different so if passports record sex, what's the problem?

And it's not fringe wankers on Twitter. Mainstream trans rights groups like Stonewall absolutely advocate that access to bogs, sports, shelters and dating pools should be based on gender, what people say they are, unprovably, full stop.

Oh, and that kids can get 'gender medicine'. Mainstream trans demands, not fringe.

 

[Scouse]

You keep telling us that sex and gender are different so if passports record sex, what's the problem?

The problem is you lack compassion, as I said right above your post:

We do lots of illogical things simply to make other people feel happy. It's kind of part of the human existence - and in many ways the compassion we show to minority groups shows the level of our sociological development.

And it's not fringe wankers on Twitter. Mainstream trans rights groups like Stonewall absolutely advocate that access to bogs, sports, shelters and dating pools should be based on gender, what people say they are, unprovably, full stop.

Whilst I don't agree with (or follow) everything stonwall says:
Bogs - remove segregation - as is succesfully done in loads of places. (You can add changing rooms to this non-issue.)
Dating Pools?? What the fuck is a dating pool? People can date whoever they like and if they turn someone down and they act like a cunt, then call them a cunt. Simple. This is a non-issue.
Sports - Stonewall's position seems reasonable and inclusive and specifically says that sporting bodies should on a case-by-case basis take an evidence-based approach to how they deal with things? (So, it's the sporting bodies who decide, and if they want to allow cocks in, that's their idiot decision - agitation doesn't mean we have to do stupid things).

I left shelters until last because it seems that what's going on in twitter seems at odds with the reality the service providers espouse - and Stonewall's approach here doesn't seem utterly unreasonable.

But they do point out that the fucking twitterstorm is just a fucking storm of shit with too much anger, not enough compassion and a distortion of reality. And I agree with that point 100% because nobody is advocating for the easy stuff, and just talking about the outrageous stuff instead.

Oh, and that kids can get 'gender medicine'. Mainstream trans demands, not fringe.

I can't find where they campaign for that. But hey ho. We can say no, you know?

Does that mean we can't put penguin on passports however - identity documentation and census data reflecting people's realities seems to be the biggest mainstream desire.

Give me one really good reason why we can't/shouldn't accomodate that easily and cheaply?

You're repeatedly doing exactly what I'm accusing you of - focussing on other shit, which happens in a handful of cases, and completely ignoring the simple and uncontroversial things we could do to help all of the weird wankers...

 

[Wij]

I mean they make it pretty clear they oppose the idea of restricting gender 'healthcare' for under 18s:

Why we're worried about the Government’s statement on trans rights legislation

Yesterday, the Minister for Women and Equalities Liz Truss announced that the government’s response to a consultation to reform a piece of trans rights legislation (the Gender Recognition Act...

www.stonewall.org.uk

Dating pools? Nancy Kelley, CEO of Stonewall calling lesbians who don't want to date males prejudiced like racists:

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren’t attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it’s worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions."

Usual dodge on bogs and changing areas. You can advocate for mixed areas with areas of privacy but at the moment we don't have places like that in many locations and unless you are stumping up the money to redesign and build them all then you have to face the reality that men are posting Tiktoks every day of themselves in women's areas saying "fuck you cis bitches", just like normal women do.

Oooh, and yes, Stonewall is completely neutral on sports:

Stonewall criticises exclusion of transgender cyclist Emily Bridges

Bridges’ initial inclusion in the women’s event at the British National Omnium Championships sparked widespread debate.

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Scouse]

Do you ever answer any questions @Wij?

I've asked the penguin/passport question like eleventy times now. Can you answer it please?

 

[Scouse]

"Nobody should ever be pressured into dating, or pressured into dating people they aren’t attracted to. But if you find that when dating, you are writing off entire groups of people, like people of colour, fat people, disabled people or trans people, then it’s worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions."

This is perfectly reasonable btw.

You can date whoever you like. Never feel pressured into anything. But have you perhaps considered that societal prejudices may shape your attractions?

What, even for a second, is wrong with that?



The rest of the guff I'll address (again) if you ever bother answering my questions.

 

[Wij]

This is perfectly reasonable btw.

You can date whoever you like. Never feel pressured into anything. But have you perhaps considered that societal prejudices may shape your attractions?

What, even for a second, is wrong with that?



The rest of the guff I'll address (again) if you ever bother answering my questions.

Prejudiced against dating trans women? It’s not prejudiced for lesbians to not want to date men, regardless of how those men identify. 100% not prejudiced. To think that the CEO of Stonewall stoops to homophobia is disgusting. And it’s not just me saying it. Many LGB people have called her out for it.

Penguins on fucking passports is dumb. No penguin is getting a passport. Why don’t you answer my question about why passports can’t just record people’s sex, not gender, and let ‘gender’ be a personal thing? Sex can’t change. ‘Gender’ can. It’s not a fact. What is wrong with a passport simply stating their sex and saying nothing about ‘gender’.

 

[DaGaffer]

Do you ever answer any questions @Wij?

I've asked the penguin/passport question like eleventy times now. Can you answer it please?

What's the job of a passport @Scouse? Clue, it isn't a little book of making you feel happy about your lifestyle choices. It's job is to verify your identity not your pronouns, and it's also an international travel document, so you have to make every country in the world conform and agree to it's contents, which doesn't mean filling up databases around the world with fields that identify you as a twin spirit or a fucking furry. It is neither simple or necessary.

 

[Wij]

And stop comparing it to the fight for gay rights. Gay people didn’t ask us to change the meaning of basic words to accommodate an ever-evolving fantasy. Lesbians didn’t want to change what ‘woman’ means. It’s totally different, which, again, is something many LGB people are saying.