Is this what society has come to?

[Embattle]

People cannot define themselves as gender neutral on passports, court rules

 

[Wij]

Get off Twitter. That’ll sort it:


View: https://twitter.com/helensteel12/status/1237301612563103744

 

[Wij]

People cannot define themselves as gender neutral on passports, court rules

Does the passport ask for sex or gender? And was that question defined when people still assumed gender meant sex?

 

[Job]

A non gendered passport would be a hard sell in an awful lot of the world.

Probably best to just accept that white, western liberalism doesnt cover the planet.

 

[Scouse]

People cannot define themselves as gender neutral on passports, court rules

Sensible person taking sensible legal route tbh.

I don't know why we insist on M/F in passports. It's not as if it matters and other countries allow their passports to be like that.

S/he/it'll probably get a result at the supreme court. A lot of things like this get punted higher up the chain for a real decision. Would have gone on to ECHR before Brexit - and rulings on private life, self determination and personal autonomy have come in positively for people who declare no gender (Netherlands, for example, get to put X on their passport).

I don't know why we don't just go "yeah, it's a passport, it's a largley meaningless portable-prison document. We've got your biometrics, who cares what's actually written on it?"

 

[Gwadien]

Get off Twitter. That’ll sort it:


View: https://twitter.com/helensteel12/status/1237301612563103744

I find it odd you'd say get off twitter when I'd argue all your views are based on exposure to twitter, ie not reality.

 

[DaGaffer]

I find it odd you'd say get off twitter when I'd argue all your views are based on exposure to twitter, ie not reality.

He was being sarcastic dummy.

 

[Wij]

I find it odd you'd say get off twitter when I'd argue all your views are based on exposure to twitter, ie not reality.

The point -> .






<- You

 

[Scouse]

Fuck me @Wij! I was wrong! Society is tearing itself apart! Those are scenes remeniscent of the Iraq Marches!

 

[Wij]

Fuck me @Wij! I was wrong! Society is tearing itself apart! Those are scenes remeniscent of the Iraq Marches!

Buh?

 

[Scouse]

Buh?

Had an old tab open. Would have been really funny otherwise.

Honest

 

[Wij]

Just listened to this. Absolutely will not answer whether it is fair that a male weightlifter competes as a female. Reminds me of someone else


View: https://twitter.com/david_colquhoun/status/1237378879595167745


It’s on a par with Jo Swinson not being able to say what a woman is.

 

[Gwadien]

Just listened to this. Absolutely will not answer whether it is fair that a male weightlifter competes as a female. Reminds me of someone else


View: https://twitter.com/david_colquhoun/status/1237378879595167745


It’s on a par with Jo Swinson not being able to say what a woman is.

Ofc she's playing to her support base ie not you boomers

 

[Wij]

Ofc she's playing to her support base ie not you boomers

Of course young female athletes are desperate to compete against men in sport.

 

[Scouse]

Just listened to this. Absolutely will not answer whether it is fair that a male weightlifter competes as a female.

The sporting thing has been brought up a bazillion times and I've given my opinion on it.

Sport needs to learn how to accomodate. Humans shouldn't be excluded from sport over something that is both fundamental to them and uncontroversial in other civilisations.

Y.A.W.N.

 

[Yoni]

Yes sport should accomodate however it is not competative for trans women to compete against cis women whether trans woment like it or not they are biologically different and therefore should compete accordingly.

 

[Scouse]

I agree that sport is an area where these issues are complex. Look at how Caster Semenya was treated.

and therefore should compete accordingly

Sport needs to provide them a platform. It's not for them to find it. Look how much assistance is being given to women's football in proportion to it's following.

I don't have the answers. But until sport changes to accomodate trans athletes then I don't think we should be excluding them - because out of sight is out of mind.

 

[Yoni]

I am not saying they should be excluded just that as they are biologically different and should compete accordingly.

I also think that Caster Semenya was treated in an abhorrent way - she is a woman with a natural chemical imbalance and she should be allowed to compete without having to chemically change her natural make up.

 

[Wij]

I am not saying they should be excluded just that as they are biologically different and should compete accordingly.

I also think that Caster Semenya was treated in an abhorrent way - she is a woman with a natural chemical imbalance and she should be allowed to compete without having to chemically change her natural make up.

Caster Semenya is a different issue to trans athletes so I'm not wanting to blur the issues.

However, since it came up, she is biologically male. She doesn't have an imbalance. She has male biology in every important respect. XY chromosomes, SRY activation, bone structure, small gametes, you name it. She has a DSD. Her secondary sexual characteristics are atypical (I.E. her testes never made it outside the body). It isn't fair for women without a DSD to compete against her. On the other hand she was born that way and it's not her fault so it's not exactly fair on her either. How sport can accommodate DSD athletes is tricky.

It still has no bearing on whether a fully grown non-DSD man should be allowed to compete against women in weight-lifting or boxing. Sex and gender are different is your never-ending mantra Scouse. By that logic just because a bloke decides to identify as a different gender there's no reason that he should move to a different sex category in sport.

 

[Yoni]

Thank you for putting me right re Caster Semenya

 

[Job]

All of the above trickles down into society and the masses watch those charged with making these decisions continue to fly in the face of reasoned decision...and thats why the left are being trounced all over the western world.
Pulling the rug from society doesnt result in the opening of minds, they grab for conservatism.

We are now at a point where a Tory backed group from America are naming and shaming leftwing Academics with full support from senior ministers.

The chickens are coming home to crow.

 

[Job]

'McCarthyism’ in the UK: why academics fear shaming for leftwing views

 

[Wij]

All of the above trickles down into society and the masses watch those charged with making these decisions continue to fly in the face of reasoned decision...and thats why the left are being trounced all over the western world.
Pulling the rug from society doesnt result in the opening of minds, they grab for conservatism.

We are now at a point where a Tory backed group from America are naming and shaming leftwing Academics with full support from senior ministers.

The chickens are coming home to crow.

Not really equivalent Job. I’m not railing against this for the same reasons you are I’m sure.

I think a lot of it is a misogynistic men’s rights movement dressed up as a progressive one. I’d rather support women.

 

[Job]

You mean like the Christian right and Islam?

 

[Wij]

You mean like the Christian right and Islam?

As I said. Very different.

 

[Scouse]

just because a bloke decides to identify as a different gender there's no reason that he should move to a different sex category in sport.

Yes @Wij. I brought up Semenya because = "different".**

It's for sport to learn how to deal, as it is society to learn how to deal. Any tiny, miniscule 'sacrifices' we may have to make (that different parts of the world don't even see as sacrifices) can make life-changing difference to how a small but significant number of us feel.




Oh, and also intersex, not male.

 

[Scouse]

A leading scientist at international athletics’ governing body has said he is in favour of a third category for intersex athletes and that it could happen within five years – although he admitted public opinion will have to shift first.

...

Although I like what Caster said:

I am 97% sure you don’t like me but I’m 100% sure I don’t care

Anyway. The scientists say this:

We have a lot of athletes with this kind of condition. It is not just the one or two people you hear about in the media. In elite female athletics the number of intersex athletes is 140 times more than what you might find in the normal female population

 

[Job]

Yes...a complete female hadnt won the 800m for a few years, the first three in the world championship were intersex.

 

[Wij]

Yes @Wij. I brought up Semenya because = "different".**

It's for sport to learn how to deal, as it is society to learn how to deal. Any tiny, miniscule 'sacrifices' we may have to make (that different parts of the world don't even see as sacrifices) can make life-changing difference to how a small but significant number of us feel.




Oh, and also intersex, not male.

Intersex is not a third sex. If there’s one thing in my experience that intersex people hate it is being told they aren’t real men or women because they have atypical secondary sexual characteristics.

Also, small sacrifices for you. It’s not a small sacrifice if you are a female athlete and you can’t even qualify for the nationals any more. That’s pretty big fucking deal.

 

[Wij]

Small sacrifices:


View: https://twitter.com/TraceyFawcett1/status/1237432017341603840