Is this what society has come to?

[Scouse]

And yet you still won't say if women can have cocks with spunks.

In the context of this discussion I've explicitly stated multiple times that your argument is deliberately reductivist.

If you won't acknowledge (we plain disagree) why would I engage further?

Why keep asking the same question when I've clearly stated my objectioms to it's parameters?

 

[DaGaffer]

In the context of this discussion I've explicitly stated multiple times that your argument is deliberately reductivist.

If you won't acknowledge (we plain disagree) why would I engage further?

Why keep asking the same question when I've clearly stated my objectioms to it's parameters?

And multiple times you've avoided the fundamental question; is the possessor of a cock and balls a woman? Its not a difficult concept. There's nothing "reductivist" about it. You believe identity trumps biology, and you also seem to have no problem with anyone claiming to be anything they want to be and that such a claim has currency; I disagree, both on the grounds that biology does matter, but also on the grounds that even if biology didn't matter, and gender was all, it doesn't mean anyone can claim to be anything they like, especially if it impinges on the rights of others. If you can have 32 genders, one of them can be, "fuck off if you don't have a Y chromosome".

 

[Job]

Scouse you are the King of reducing argument.

I call it chasing down irrelevence to divert attention.

 

[Wij]

Self ID is fucking dumb:


View: https://twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1237005507350728704

 

[Scouse]

And multiple times you've avoided the fundamental question; is the possessor of a cock and balls a woman? Its not a difficult concept. There's nothing "reductivist" about it.

You're still mixing up sex and gender. If you look at it in that context the argument absolutely reductivist - and a western problem because of our culture and society. As much as you want to go "dick = man" it's 100% clear that our language is inadequate to describe reality for all humans.

If you really want to force me into an answer (and I won't hold to it, because I'm being forced): both yes and no. Depends on how you define "woman" in the absence of other terms and what context you want to use that in.

That's pretty simple eh. You just don't like it.

Self ID is fucking dumb

All gays want to perv at men in changing rooms. That's why we shouldn't ever accomodate the gays.


Everything posted for the past 20-odd pages is the same bloody argument.

 

[DaGaffer]

You're still mixing up sex and gender. If you look at it in that context the argument absolutely reductivist - and a western problem because of our culture and society. As much as you want to go "dick = man" it's 100% clear that our language is inadequate to describe reality for all humans.

If you really want to force me into an answer (and I won't hold to it, because I'm being forced): both yes and no. Depends on how you define "woman" in the absence of other terms and what context you want to use that in.

That's pretty simple eh. You just don't like it.


All gays want to perv at men in changing rooms. That's why we shouldn't ever accomodate the gays.


Everything posted for the past 20-odd pages is the same bloody argument.

No, you're mixing up sex and gender, and claiming sex is irrelevant when it emphatically isn't to the women who are biologically women. That's the whole fucking point. "Gender" activists are basically saying "all those periods and babies, and lack of testosterone and shit? Irrelevant. My beliefs that I'm a "woman" are all that matters".

And don't try the "we did this to the gays" argument, it won't wash. Gay men were never playing pretend.

 

[Scouse]

No, you're mixing up sex and gender, and claiming sex is irrelevant when it emphatically isn't to the women who are biologically women.

1) I'm not talking about sex, and, even though I've been clear on this point before, multiple times, I'll say it again:
2) I'm honestly not the remotest bit interested how upset women are** about this. Because we can point at other societies where you can have a bazillion genders and women / men / rabbits don't give the remotest stuff and look at us, goggle eyed, wondering why we're such a bunch of up-tight fuckwitts.

Tough fucking tits women. The only time this ever affects you is when you're on facebook or twitter and feel the need to be angry about something - in the same way @Job reads the guardian, because he's so dead inside that he needs to feel something, and rage is a strong and easily provoked emotion.

In general all of this is a non-problem and we've got much bigger fish to fry.

And, again, just to be very clear: fuck safe spaces.



**precisely zero of the ones I've actually met and talked to. Apart from my sister. But then she doesn't like the gays either.

 

[Yoni]

By ignoring me as a woman @Scouse you are discriminating. I feel (because this is all about emotions and not factual) that removing the universal sign for womanhood from sanitary towels is offensive. Why is it that it is more correct to listen to gender activists than to women? Why am I being made to feel more insignificant than another human being because I was born into the gender depicted by biology and have not self identified as a woman?

 

[Scouse]

I was born into the gender depicted by biology

Not sex then?

Honestly @Yoni. Are you devastated? Is it impinging on all areas of your life and making you feel horribly uncomfortable on a daily basis?

No?

Then get over it. There is a very small but significant proportion of the western population that are really, actually, struggling because of western culture - whereas in other parts of the world this is a non-problem.

If allowing them to call themselves donkeys on their passports, use womens changing rooms (which should be banned anyway) and be the people they want to be makes their lives easier then so be it. It's not really going to hurt anyone else.


And just to be clear: If you want to cut children up / give them drugs, then that's a separate issue. I don't know how you solve the problems around sport but I do know that it's sport that should change to accomodate - not humans. Everything else we've brought up is just distracting noise created when a binary judaeo-christian post-religious society starts to make changes that affect how the whole population sees the world.

As usual, the kids won't have a problem with it. When us adults get older they'll look at us and go "lol - old people are funny with their stupid ideas" - the same way we look at our grandparents and @Job and think they're idiots who are to be ignored.

 

[DaGaffer]

1) I'm not talking about sex, and, even though I've been clear on this point before, multiple times, I'll say it again:
2) I'm honestly not the remotest bit interested how upset women are** about this. Because we can point at other societies where you can have a bazillion genders and women / men / rabbits don't give the remotest stuff and look at us, goggle eyed, wondering why we're such a bunch of up-tight fuckwitts.

Tough fucking tits women. The only time this ever affects you is when you're on facebook or twitter and feel the need to be angry about something - in the same way @Job reads the guardian, because he's so dead inside that he needs to feel something, and rage is a strong and easily provoked emotion.

In general all of this is a non-problem and we've got much bigger fish to fry.

And, again, just to be very clear: fuck safe spaces.



**precisely zero of the ones I've actually met and talked to. Apart from my sister. But then she doesn't like the gays either.

So 50% of humanity, fuck 'em to please less than 1% (and no, you're demonstrably wrong, it does affect them). And just get something clear here; it doesn't matter if you're not talking about sex, women are. How fucking arrogant are you?

Good to know you also think women's refuges are a waste of time. I'm sure all those battered wives will be glad to know your views on the matter.

 

[Wij]

Woman means adult, human female. You can’t just change that without it affecting women.

Women have hard-won rights based on their sex. You can’t just remove them because you think they should apply to anyone who wants them.

Women don’t have penises. Get a new word for that.

 

[Yoni]

@Scouse you ARE making me feel invisible- why is my view worth less than a man identifying as a woman?

 

[Scouse]

Why is it that it is more correct to listen to gender activists than to women?

Why should men listen to the whining of feminists when we were born into the society we're born into and now have positive discrimination forced upon us, denying us jobs just on the basis of sex alone. That's real discrimination. It does actually make me, personally, feel less important because my needs as an independent equal human have been subverted in favour of women.

But you know what? I can man the fuck up and deal. Because as a man I'm in a position of privilege. And we are taking action to right structural imbalances that adversely affect you. Fair enough, I can take it on the chin - but there'll be a proportion of men who've come out of this equation *very* badly indeed because they can't compete. - and I say to those men - tough titties.

You are in a position of privilege. Tough titties if you've taken offence. We're beginning to explore ways of righting more structural imbalances.

It's a mark of advancement in our society that, instead of just trying to right the wrongs done to half the population - we're now looking at problems of much smaller percentages. And that's the right thing to do.

Edit:

@Scouse you ARE making me feel invisible- why is my view worth less than a man identifying as a woman?

As above

 

[Wij]

@Scouse you ARE making me feel invisible- why is my view worth less than a man identifying as a woman?

Trans women are more oppressed than cis women apparently therefore cis women can go fuck themselves.

Oh, and you can’t call yourself a woman now. You have to put cis in front or you are a bigot.

 

[Yoni]

I do not agree with positive discrimination of any nature. I am sorry but can you stop dismissing me and my point of view. Contrary to your opinion you are not always correct and currently by dismissing my voice you are discriminating.

 

[Wij]

Also, no one was talking about positive discrimination. Deflection.

 

[Job]

Scouse you're entire tirade as usual is it doesn't affect me so fuck it.

Which is your perogative and all , but its the same as writing to an equastrian magazine to say you haven't got a horse.

 

[Scouse]

it doesn't matter if you're not talking about sex, women are.

Bully for them. I've made my point above about how I feel women, who are in a position of privilege relative to the trans community, can deal with this.

Good to know you also think women's refuges are a waste of time. I'm sure all those battered wives will be glad to know your views on the matter.

And battered husbands. And battered transgender people.

People who are battered need care. I've already covered this a bazillion times and I'm sick of having to go round and round again to justify exactly what I mean. If you think it's unfair for batterd transgender people to not be put in women's refuges then fair enough. Fund more refuges. Don't just dump them in with men - battered transgender people need care too.

And to address your "needs of the many" 1% argument yet a-fucking-gain. In absolute numbers 1% is a fuck of a lot of people.

 

[Scouse]

I do not agree with positive discrimination of any nature. I am sorry but can you stop dismissing me and my point of view. Contrary to your opinion you are not always correct and currently by dismissing my voice you are discriminating.

You can get away with that claptrap.

I'm not dismissing your point of view - I've spent time engaging with your argument and explained my reasoning. Don't play the hurt "oh you're dismissing me" - I'm not. I'm saying "I think you're wrong. I think you're in a position of privilege. The 'harm' done to you includes removing labelling on sanitary products?? WTF! Stop whining!"

 

[Wij]

Women are in a position of privilege?

What planet do you live on?

 

[Scouse]

Women are in a position of privilege?

Relative to the trans community?

Absolutely.


Edit:
You honestly don't think that Man > Woman is the only power pyramid that exists on the planet do you?

Frankly, I think the only one we should be focussing on is Rich > Poor, but people are dumb and take their eyes off the real prize. We can fix the rest of the shit once we've fixed the really important one, but it seems we ain't going to...

 

[Yoni]

How the hell do define position of privilege? Being born with the right biology - who are you to try to define that?

 

[Scouse]

How the hell do define position of privilege? Being born with the right biology - who are you to try to define that?

I don't understand what you're saying there Yons, sorry.

 

[Yoni]

Why do you define me as with privilege- who are you to decide that? What do you know about me as a woman, except the information I have shared here?

 

[DaGaffer]

Bully for them. I've made my point above about how I feel women, who are in a position of privilege relative to the trans community, can deal with this.

And battered husbands. And battered transgender people.

People who are battered need care. I've already covered this a bazillion times and I'm sick of having to go round and round again to justify exactly what I mean. If you think it's unfair for batterd transgender people to not be put in women's refuges then fair enough. Fund more refuges. Don't just dump them in with men - battered transgender people need care too.

And to address your "needs of the many" 1% argument yet a-fucking-gain. In absolute numbers 1% is a fuck of a lot of people.

Except its not even 1%, its like 1% of 1% who've forced an agenda, which bizarrely they've convinced state bodies to endorse, with pretty much no debate (or where it is, dissenting voices are simply "no platformed"). And once again, stop trying to create bullshit false equivalence; if there is a need to create refuges for battered husbands (or battered trans people), make the case for it, don't deny women their rights in order to do so

 

[Embattle]

Seems I just caught a glimpse Piers Morgan pummeling Lisa Nandy on this subject.

 

[Job]

As usual its all very nice discussing these things from a removed viewpoint and concluding the best approach using logic.

I prefer to liase with the real world, where emotion rules, you dont undermine 100 thousand years of cultural conditioning by pointing out the bleedin obvious that women and men can overlap and then make the acceptance of that a law totally out of skew with convention and expect everyone to just jump to your showerthought of the day.

 

[Wij]

Seems I just caught a glimpse Piers Morgan pummeling Lisa Nandy on this subject.

Oh God. Don't make me agree with Piers Morgan :/

 

[Scouse]

LOL @Wij

 

[Wij]

Trans rights activists are just as nasty in real life as on twitter. Women are not allowed a voice (unless they have a cock):


View: https://twitter.com/antoniafrances/status/1237129358038441984