Is this what society has come to?

Discussion in 'The Front Room' started by BloodOmen, Aug 28, 2018.

  1. Yoni

    Yoni Cockb@dger / Klotehommel

  2. Wij

    Wij I am a FH squatter FH Subscriber

  3. Job

    Job The Carl Pilkington of Freddyshouse

    At least it drastically reduces your breast cancer risk.
  4. Scouse

    Scouse HERO! FH Subscriber

    As long as the state doesn't help with any gender reassignment surgery until they're of an age determined by professionals, I couldn't really give a fuck about that.

    Kids are going to say they are what they are. Their parents think they've got some sort of an input to that. But that's just hubris. Kids'll just nod and agree if it means they get less aggro, or worse, feel bad or somehow wrong.

    How many of them are going to bother? Charge a nominal fee and it'll stop 'em registering their change of mind every ten minutes, even if they bother in the first place. It's not like it'll get 'em owt.
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 1
  5. Wij

    Wij I am a FH squatter FH Subscriber

    Did you read what they are actually campaigning for? Kids to be able to be reassigned surgically and parents blocked from stopping them.
  6. Scouse

    Scouse HERO! FH Subscriber

    1. They're not campaigning. They did some pro-bono work for a pressure group and produced a report.
    2. "the report advises activists to "de-medicalise" their campaigns "so that legal gender recognition can be seen in the eyes of the public as distinct from gender confirmation treatments"

    and even though the article brushed over it to make another point:

    "The report describes how sterilisation of trans people was once a concern in Norway"

    That's a real and pretty shocking thing providing important context the article glossed over in it's zeal to be angry at a report produced by a law firm.

    So, as far as I'm concerned your parental terror can go jump. The way we're treating kids is changing and we're not putting them in a conformative straightjacket and telling them how they can and should feel, identify or be.

    I, for one, don't give a fuck about that. I'd love to see how it pans out and I don't for one second give two shits about the parental terror that view engenders.
  7. Wij

    Wij I am a FH squatter FH Subscriber

  8. Scouse

    Scouse HERO! FH Subscriber

    Never said I supported that...
  9. Wij

    Wij I am a FH squatter FH Subscriber

    So maybe it’s not a good idea to blindly support kids who have been told they might have been ‘born in the wrong body’ yes?

    Research has shown that young girls who decide they want to be boys are usually young lesbians who find the idea hard to process, abused/traumatised or autistic who don’t really understand how to live up to society’s expectations of what a teenage girl should be.

    They don’t have a gender-thetan.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 1
  10. Wij

    Wij I am a FH squatter FH Subscriber

    Disclaimer. My daughter is autistic. I don’t want some fucking ghoul telling her in a few years time that she might be happier if she chops her tits off.
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Scouse

    Scouse HERO! FH Subscriber

    Parental terror is turning you into an outrageous argument twister @Wij.
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 1
  12. Wij

    Wij I am a FH squatter FH Subscriber

    No it hasn’t. It just makes me see how ridiculous this is. And dangerous. Kids are being put on irreversible medical pathways. Kids.
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Scouse

    Scouse HERO! FH Subscriber

    Separate the two.

    Gender self identification and medical intervention on minors are two *very* different things.

    You can have one without the other. Absolutely you can.
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 1
  14. Wij

    Wij I am a FH squatter FH Subscriber

    They are doing medical intervention on kids.
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Scouse

    Scouse HERO! FH Subscriber

    What? Is your parental outrage turning you into @Job?

    I said "gender self identification and medical interventions are two *very* different things".

    Are you picking what you're most outraged about and turning the conversation to that for a reason? What is that reason and what do you hope to achieve?
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 1
  16. Wij

    Wij I am a FH squatter FH Subscriber

    1.) My point today was the dangerous things being done to kids. Medical interventions. So you accept they are wrong?
    2.) Do you not think that accepting kids 'gender declarations' as fact rather than trying to understand the full mental picture will lead to more of these medical interventions?
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Scouse

    Scouse HERO! FH Subscriber

    Christ it's like talking to my sister when she's hysterical.

    No @Wij. It wasn't. You posted this:
    Which, as discussed, was about a document produced by Dentons for campaigners which has been misrepresented in the same way that the Fail and the Grauniad often do.

    I'm not answering this for, like the eighth time in this thread, and for at least the second time on this page.

    I think that depends whether society decides to allow (or to continue to allow) medical interventions on children. As I've said, and you've continued to ignore, why can't you separate the two?

    I'll bring up two things again:

    1) Norway.
    2) "Separate the two...Gender self identification and medical intervention on minors are two *very* different things."

    Until this becomes a sensible two-way conversation rather than a terrified parent rant which simply moves onto the next thing that's petrifying you, rather than considering the other half of the discussions' answers then I'm out again I'm afraid. Happy to talk to you @Wij, but I'm not going to sit here whilst you ignore everything I say and just go "well, what about THIS??!!!!111!oneeleven".

    Separate them. Then tell me what the harm is in allowing children to identify however they feel as they grow up. Letting them change their minds on a whim, as they are wont. Or however they feel about the trend that they're following and how that makes them feel. As long as we're not mangling them how is that more harmful than enforcing our debunked outdated judaeo-christian-hangover views around gender and sexuality on them?

    I get as a parent that it's tricky. Especially as a parent of an autistic kid. I probably shouldn't have pressed your buttons earlier saying I give no fucks - I do. I sympathise.

    I just think you're wrong on this and I've still not seen an argument that convinces me otherwise.
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 1
  18. Gwadien

    Gwadien Uneducated Northern Cretin

    I don't see in the article where it talks about surgical operations; all it says is that opponents have criticised it because the next step is surgery.

    That's horseshit, and you know it. Kids need consent for any form of surgery/medication anyway, it's not like that's going to be skipped for gender reassignment.

    You're also complaining that your autistic daughter is somehow going to turn trans because of being taught it's okay to be trans, that's like saying she's going to turn gay if she's taught it's okay to be gay.
  19. Scouse

    Scouse HERO! FH Subscriber

    Actually, I will re-enter on one thing I've re-read:
    I was going to be glib and say "just read that. And what does that say?" but that'd be dickish.

    That's part of the point of gender self identification isn't it - that we're no longer forcing society's expectations on what children should be or feel on them, based on "norms" that aren't really anything other than archaic social constructs.

    If young girls find the idea that they're lesbian hard to process maybe it's because mummy and daddy (and all of society, media and film) went on about "boys and girls" too much, instead of "girls and girls", or whatever woke @Gwadien nomenclature they're supposed to bloody use in school nowadays.

    Maybe it'll free boys to be more effeminate without getting bullied for being "like girls" eh?

    No? Nothing in it?
  20. Wij

    Wij I am a FH squatter FH Subscriber

    No. Exactly the opposite.

    Telling kids that the answer to gender non-conformity is surgery rather than 'fuck conformity' is the problem. Girls can do science and not pout on instagram. We should support that rather than suggesting the lie that they are boys inside.
  21. Wij

    Wij I am a FH squatter FH Subscriber

    Aaaaand. Look at it from another angle for a moment.

    Is Alex Drummond a woman?

    Alex has a penis and a beard. No Intersex characteristics whatsoever. Fancies birds. Does NOT want any surgery to cut his cock off (understandably so) and is happy with his cock and balls and hairy arse.

    But insists he is a woman.

    Is Alex Drummond a woman?
  22. Scouse

    Scouse HERO! FH Subscriber

    OK @Job. I'm definitely out. :(
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 1
  23. Scouse

    Scouse HERO! FH Subscriber

    Fuck off with your medical intervention wank @Wij. Apart from the fact that you've resorted to posting The Fail on Freddyshouse (shame on you - that was previously the exclusive reserve of Job) - we've covered the medical intervention angle a billion times and frankly it's now boring and I ain't repeating myself.

    Separate it out, or don't bother, your call.
    • Facepalm Facepalm x 1
  24. fettoken

    fettoken I am a FH squatter

  25. Wij

    Wij I am a FH squatter FH Subscriber

    The story is true whatever site it's on. Shit like that happens. Trans'd people realise they shouldn't have done it all the time. Even before surgery. You think they give puberty blockers to kids after puberty? No, they give them to tweens who shouldn't be able to consent to anything like that. It's criminal. They end up with brittle bones. If a boy decides to stop the process and become the gay man he always was he's going to be left with a micro-penis. Sure that's not going to fuck anyone up.

    Outside of medical intervention then. Did you read the article I posted about gender identity a week or so ago yet?

    Is Alex Drummond a woman? You didn't answer that.
  26. Wij

    Wij I am a FH squatter FH Subscriber

    I'd say it's on the Tavistock. They default to affirming stated gender identity and move on from there with their untested procedures. They should exercise WAY more caution before starting anything dangerous like that. Blocking puberty is seriously bad for the body and mind.
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  27. Moriath

    Moriath I am a FH squatter

    You see spaying increasing diseases and life expectancy in pets i am sure deprivation of hormones in humans must be similar.

    Tavistock? The place in Devon?
  28. DaGaffer

    DaGaffer Down With That Sorta Thing

    Parents want what's best for their kids, and don't have the same knowledge or expertise as medics. Therefore, they trust the medics, especially if the kid is also reinforcing what the medics say. Even when you have firm beliefs about something, you'll do anything to protect your kids, so... I don't need to tell you this.

    A two second google shows that story is on multiple sites, of all political persuasions. And you're being a bit of a tool; the two issues are related; the normalisation of self-identified gender definition is being used to justify surgical interventions and effectively normalise them, and see above, parents aren't medics.

    This. There is a long and ignominious history of medics exercising pet theories as fact. As I've said on this thread before, some of the worst have been the advocacy of surgical interventions for psychological issues. Its never gone well.

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