Hib pbae

Discussion in 'RvR Discussions' started by Hotrats, Jan 22, 2004.

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  1. Hotrats

    Hotrats Fledgling Freddie

    I posted this on BW but as that is closing soon I thought I would make my first post on FreddysHouse a typical game balance one :)

    I just realised the main reason hib pbae groups are so successful is the perfect balance of offence and defence.

    PBAE at first was used very offensively by most hibs, then they decided to stay all in one *box* and protect each other with pbae when enemy tanks attacked.
    In the DH vid this is done perfectly and with Tusk also guarding and slamming those tanks it becomes very hard to kill hib casters in melee.

    So you look to your support, if they can keep the hib casters interupted its no problem for your tanks to move in and kill. However thanks to hib pets (and GP effecting pets) 2 or 3 support members can be interupted almost for free. Then the bard has amnesia, the dd and castable/insta mezz which can be devastating at the start of a fight. Chanters can also use dps debuff just in case his pet is cc'd or is hitting a different support char. Plenty of uninteruptable interuption power available anyway, and all useable while in *box* formation.

    So the enemy support is all tied up with pets and insta cast spells, the enemy tanks cannot enter pbae range without a great risk of dieing, its a stalemate situation. But wait the final tool of a hib caster group, heat debuff, perfect for killing anything within 1500 range, especially combined with the castable stun and assist nuking.

    If any other realms caster group wants a ranged debuffer and 3 pbae classes they must use a 4th cloth wearing caster, however hibs can use a mana chanter and open up yet another spot in their group for a different class (as if a bard does not already open up enough group spots).

    Hib caster groups (much like mid melee groups) are so well balanced with respect to offence and defence its the main reason they are so successful, almost all the skills of every class can be used toward helping the group win its fights.

    The problem with an alb group is the same old story of the key abilities being spread over too many classes, you end up with inefficiency in the group as the skills of the group don't always support each other. Take a mind sorc lifetap for example, potentially a very powerful spell, but it requires a debuff from a spirit cabalist, but then a spirit cabalist doesn't offer much defence to a group (no pbae like a chanter) and 2 cloth wearers without any pbae protection is making the group look quite vulnerable. So you take a couple of ice wizzies, but they have to face 16% or even 24% cold resists and without power relics really need a debuffer, so you need a body sorc. 5 classes already gone from the 8 available and all of them wear cloth armor! Looks like a alb caster group isn't possible, and without GP they are bound to have a hard time anyway.

    An alb tank group does just about work, its defence is poor because the pala must be up front with the tanks to give them end but at least it does have pretty decent offence. The main reason they suck vs hib pbae groups is the lack of uninteruptable interuption power, which can be changed by bringing a reaver. The fights I can remember vs DH when we have a reaver are usually very close, and very fun.

    In conclusion if your an alb and want a good chance to beat a hib pbae group bring a reaver. If you want to beat a well played mid fotm tank group well thats what BoF and SoS are for I guess, although hopefully things will get easier next patch and albs won't have to rely on 30 min RA's
     
  2. Asty

    Asty Fledgling Freddie

    Agree, reaver is uber against pbae groups
     
  3. Belomar

    Belomar Fledgling Freddie

    Of course it is possible. It's simply a matter of your perspective -- yes, it will be difficult and you may die (often), but it's sure a lot of fun.
     
  4. LordjOX

    LordjOX Part of the furniture

    nice post, altho spamming aoe spells (like root) vs hib caster grps is very effective- since they all in a littul box...
    i've found alb caster grps consisting of lots of them sorc's and a caba of X spec very lethal.... altho they mite have a difficult time, they have a great potential, altho the great lack of defence.
    met one of them grps couple of days ago in odins, our 1st caster was down in seconds, then the next, and the next. and myself was dead after 3 nukes or summat, cast very quickly. (we had nurt druid resists and red warden resists)
     
  5. flex

    flex Fledgling Freddie

    What about 1 cabby 3 body sorc's and an ice wiz

    caby debuffs and sorcs + cabbys nuke nice and pbaoe for defence with 1 sorc debuffing cold + u got 4 pets on enemy casters + 1 sorc spams aoe amnesia to interrupt mocing pbaoers

    i really want to try this group setup, even more after next patch with better lifedrain.

    I wonder if trading a theurg for the minc would work, with a theurg petting and 4 pets from sorc/caba, healers etc won't be able to do much i think

    with this setup u got most utilities except stun and best speed
     
  6. Stallion

    Stallion Can't get enough of FH

    good post hotrats.. :)

    reaver will delay the result of the fight... cant rely on 1 class that much... reaver can be taken out verry quickly.. but I guess all classes can.. ;) I liek ur post thou ;) and u gave me a good insight of balance between the realms... but u dont run caster grps do you? :p
     
  7. Event

    Event Fledgling Freddie

    Im a bit of a noob when it comes to alb classes as never played alb but wudnt this setup be ok?

    Ice Wiz x3
    Sorc
    Pally s/s
    Mincer
    Cleric x2
     
  8. [NO]Magmatic

    [NO]Magmatic Fledgling Freddie

    Think we need to invite your sorc a bit more in our groups so you can become a bit more positive about albion caster groups :wub:

    Yes Albion casters have it hard, a hib (and mid) pbaoe group can be more successfull due to several reasons... But we're not doomed... Ask any of the groups that we killed yesterday after Evelina and Fatalitys came online...

    I love playing in our caster group, we beat a lot of groups, even FOTM mid groups... Sure its not always an easy fight, but we've not been playing together as much as DH has...

    With the upcomming 'theurgist' patch, the 1 minute pet and harder-hitting ice pets... I think we'll do even better then we do now... I still dont expect to win from everyone, and would actually get bored rather quick if we did...
     
  9. -Freezingwiz-

    -Freezingwiz- Fledgling Freddie


    I would trade the pally for a theugist if it is a good 1 ofc if not then rather stay with the pally
     
  10. Tualatin

    Tualatin Fledgling Freddie

    Well, The Brethen caster group seems to manage well.. dunno how they perform against high RR hib caster group. So it _is_ possible.
     
  11. Judde

    Judde Fledgling Freddie

    Well, imo theres only one pbaegroup thats hard to defeat.. and thats ofc DH ;) The only way to succes is to have someone that can interupt, for an instance a sorc. But almost all the time the sorc insta dies from debuff nuking or just gets tons tons of pets after GP. So theres like 3-4 pets depending on how many chanters(1 or 2). It will take to long to get rid of them. Tanks cant leave the _box_ to kill pets and minstrel cant get em off quiclky enough. Well, the paladin can go and guard/slam some of but a paladin is very usefull in box fo slamming hero or the chanters that might moc or something :D
    So now the sorc is running with 3+ pets and cant do a shit, except for moc.
    It's the only chance for our setup to get forexample DH. Then the tanks can start killing casters without getting smacked totally. And remember that they have a bard + warden that often goes out to interupt our clerics too or sorc.
    And if you dont get the interupts from sorc, they'll start debuffnuking. So the only way that i can think of is to go this way or just be lucky that they dont have GP up or any singlepurges. This is how its works against our setup, for those who dont know: 3mercs,2clerics,minstrel,paladin and sorc. And also, albs deadlydoomweapons of hell BOF AND SOS!.. Doesnt really work.
    And like hotrats wrote, getting a reaver rocks against pbaegroups.. but they have NO determ and cant really do much without purge.. And reavers aint really impressive vs mids either(except for afdebuff etc maybe)
    And in next patch i think albs will get abit easier, because theurgists will be used more often, so hibs will have to get 2 casters interupted constanty.
    But still DH wont be easy to smack even with a theurgist and moc on sorc Because theyre all rr10+ they got moc too and tusk slamming in box and awesome support.
    They will always rock
    If anything is wrong except my crappy english, correct me!
     
  12. Stallion

    Stallion Can't get enough of FH

    is sorc the only kind of interrupt u have? cleric, minstrel.. and its just silly to have 3 pets on 1 target.. doubt any decent player lets gp "handle" aggro to the sorc, u always try to spread em out and redirect em after gp... and with cleric/mincer interrutping box... tanks _can_ actully kill off the pets.. just a minstrel itself can kill the grey one with shouts.. and disable the others in some way..
     
  13. Sepiritz

    Sepiritz Fledgling Freddie

    It would seem in the end the best solution would be to have 2fg for albs to compete. One tank group and one caster group adding.. Alb caster groups have virtually no defense, only ranged damage, so using it across a meat wall would make sense. Atleast imho. :)
    Though I do agree with most posters above, Alb caster groups are alot of fun. That doesnt mean its as versatile as hib ones or maybe even mid ones.
     
  14. Judde

    Judde Fledgling Freddie

    Yeah, dh still got warden and bard and yes i forgot, they do put pets on others then sorc. If tanks not doing well they got druid that can root too ;X
    And there aint many smiteclerics they often need to heal imo
     
  15. Stallion

    Stallion Can't get enough of FH

    TB > 2fg albs... if u have a set grp with nice friends and ppl u dont need to outnumber 2:1.. silly comment.. and in this patch baod gives you 30 sec imunity against the mage grp if they dont assist with debuffs.. (only seen TB do it) :kissit:
     
  16. -Freezingwiz-

    -Freezingwiz- Fledgling Freddie

    2 fg pbaoe grps > 1 fg tanks and 1 fg casters ;P
     
  17. Stallion

    Stallion Can't get enough of FH

    well not much to heal if mincer does his work with tank on pets _outside_ of box.. its stupid to charge box if u know ur support is interrupted.. failing to get the box disabled.
     
  18. Stallion

    Stallion Can't get enough of FH

    dont go there.. u dont want roaming zergs :eek:
     
  19. Judde

    Judde Fledgling Freddie

    err, if you dont charge box and try getting casters down they will start debuff + assistnuke, you can like sos and run away and get back when mez timer is gone? or just go out of range from dd? still lots to debuffnuke ;p And for example after GP bard will mez support and they'll be debuffnuked if tanks aint there. And tanks will die torwards the pbae then if sorc or minstrel can interupt.
     
  20. Stallion

    Stallion Can't get enough of FH

    err tanks assist on 1 caster.. how do u think the other 2 are interrupted? by the air? no by your support... without tanks at box u can keep em interrupted...sure some debuff nukes will probably happend.. but thye have to moc to do so..u can outplay most hib caster grps by just taking looking over the situation once or twice.. rather then CHARGE... nvm our support cant heal us... :p
     
  21. Stallion

    Stallion Can't get enough of FH

    Hotrats..

    Cabalist: Enchanter:
    Root Stun
    Pet Pet
    self debuff self debuff
    disease pbae
    nearsight dps debuff

    cabas are simply better suited for tank grps with a sorc...
     
  22. Judde

    Judde Fledgling Freddie


    eh, how :x i wrote in my first post that you need moc as a sorc vs pet,the debuffnuking is really dangerous it instakills everything if the assist goes well :p
     
  23. Wildfire

    Wildfire Fledgling Freddie

    Mind Sorc
    Body Sorc
    2x Ice Wiz
    2x Cleric
    Minstrel
    Theurgist

    nuff said
     
  24. anubis

    anubis Fledgling Freddie

    i wouldnt do pbae with albs
    for good offensive pbae you need insta cc
    albs dont have it
    n00k all da way

    2 fire wizzys
    2 clerics
    minst
    theurg/sorc
    paladin
    sorc
     
  25. Stallion

    Stallion Can't get enough of FH

    again u think sorc is the only interrupter?
     
  26. swords

    swords Can't get enough of FH

    TBH a 2 merc 1 spirit cabby works realy well against Mid FOTM groups and Hib PBAOE groups, granted it takes more effort to get the same results but what you get with a cabalist is more dmg output than just having another merc. (we had two MA's one for the casters one for the mercs)

    You also get Disease which is greatly underused in Albion and is incredibly effective in slowing down assist trains, interupting casters and reducing the healing strength of the enemy group.

    Single target Dots can also cause problem so enemy support and with all this they can debuff their and the sorcs dmg.

    They get a pet which when buffed is evil in its own right and hard to kill compared to those little grey con bastards the hibs use :)

    I would take a Spirit Cabalist over a reaver any day of the week.
     
  27. Fedaykin

    Fedaykin Fledgling Freddie

    I've beeen running alb caster group sall the time since i respecced to 47 body

    so much fun
    2 spirit cabas
    2 body sorcs
    2 clerics
    mincer
    free spot

    been running that in odins

    or in emain

    me
    3 fire wizzies
    2 clerics
    minstrel
    mind sorc
     
  28. -Freezingwiz-

    -Freezingwiz- Fledgling Freddie


    ok... u are 3 speccing the cabalist and 1 speccing the enchanter ?
     
  29. Stallion

    Stallion Can't get enough of FH

    3 speccing?

    47
    24
    11

    I think when I checked at catacombs...might be wrong..
     
  30. -Freezingwiz-

    -Freezingwiz- Fledgling Freddie


    u can do that but U will have a disease that will get resisted offen and a near sight with "low effect" and still resist problem
     
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