Religion Good news!

[Scouse]

Show me an example where any of those things are condoned at the highest levels of a religion.

The vatican has been shown to be instrumental in covering up the western child-rape atrocity. Tens of thousands of kids were involved.

There was a (largely symbolic) move in the US to endite and prosecute the pope - get an arrest warrant - but because the pope is a head of state - Vatican City is its own state - he's immune from such action.

And how about the Pope's insistence that condom use in Africa is "morally wrong" - and the catholic church's campains there - which is very succesfully achieving death from AIDS on a massive scale?

Real-world atrocities, going on right now - and well reported in the media.

You're blinkered Chilly.

In many ways Scouse's rabid antipathy towards Religion seems as fanatical as those who believe in a religion!

I hate child rapists, I hate systems culpable for death and repression on massive scales. I speak out on it when I can.

If Sony was the corporation of child-rape and murder, would you not speak out?

Why does the church deserve your softly-softly appeasement Vae?

 

[Yoni]

In many ways Scouse's rabid antipathy towards Religion seems as fanatical as those who believe in a religion!

I agree that his views are extreme on this subject.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I wouldn't say his views are extreme, just slightly ignorant as they encompass every bit of religion into the popeligion.

And that was rather rude by my part to post "his views are", like talking about someone who is in the room in third person. Apologies for that.

 

[Scouse]

Are you really that naive????? War, rape, forms of repression will continue to exist regardless of religion.

Of course they will.

Would the system of organised rape and subsequent cover-up of tens of thousands of children in churches and religious schools across the western world have been possible without Catholicism?

Would a catholic-religious argument to the non-use of condoms in AIDS-torn Africa be possible without Catholicism?

I agree that his views are extreme on this subject.

I think that humanity is beginning to wake from a 2000-year old religion-orchestrated sleep and in a few hundred years the vast majority of mankind will be shocked at our barbarism and idiocy.

I'm one of many who already feel like that - but we're still a minority.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Would the system of organised rape and subsequent cover-up of tens of thousands of children in churches and religious schools across the western world have been possible without Catholicism?

Would a catholic-religious argument to the non-use of condoms in AIDS-torn Africa be possible without Catholicism?

No, and i agree that they are wrong. (i know you like direct answers)

 

[Scouse]

I went to a catholic convent boarding school from the ages of 10 to 16. Can you imagine the fun I had when I left hehehe.

Sadly I can, Yoni.

All the people I have personal knowledge of (a handful, maybe just over half a dozen) who've gone down your route have done so precicely because of a knee-jerk reaction to the repressive, religious upbringing that Catholicism has forced on them.

Three of them are sons of priests.


It seems that religion has a lot to answer for in your case.

 

[Yoni]

Sadly I can, Yoni.

All the people I have personal knowledge of (a handful, maybe just over half a dozen) who've gone down your route have done so precicely because of a knee-jerk reaction to the repressive, religious upbringing that Catholicism has forced on them.

Three of them are sons of priests.

It seems that religion has a lot to answer for in your case.

Addictive personality disorder is not the result of a catholic upbringing scouse. I have 4 fully functional non addicted siblings. Additionally I have no regrets in my life and harbour no ill feelings towards my upbringing at all. Each addiction I have fought has been an incredibly journey and learning experience (although withdrawal particularly from food and coke was a bit of a bugger)

 

[Scouse]

Addictive personality disorder is not the result of a catholic upbringing scouse.

Absolutley. Apologies if I gave that impression.

However, I would posit the possibility that the cocaine-fuelled benders may have been a "freeeeeeedom" reaction? You alluded to that in your own post - so it looks like you had a push to react more extremely than you would otherwise have done.

Religion (mainly catholic, but also a jehovas witness) was certainly instrumental, even central, in the cases of all of the people I have first-hand knowledge of who went on massive drug-fuelled benders at a young age and still struggle today.



Edit: I'm not saying religion = guaranteed to be fucked up.

I'm saying it tips the scales.

 

[rynnor]

I think its rather sad that religion is dying out in the uk.

I'm an atheist but I rather like churches and it saddens me to see them fall into neglect.

I also feel that the space the church once occupied in society has not been filled by anything good.

I think we would be better off as a nation if we were still a nation of churchgoers.

 

[Scouse]

I'm an atheist but I rather like churches and it saddens me to see them fall into neglect.

They make very good pubs.

They should be taken over, sympathetically treated and serve quality beverages and food.

 

[Yoni]

Absolutley. Apologies if I gave that impression.

However, I would posit the possibility that the cocaine-fuelled benders may have been a "freeeeeeedom" reaction? You alluded to that in your own post - so it looks like you had a push to react more extremely than you would otherwise have done.

Religion (mainly catholic, but also a jehovas witness) was certainly instrumental, even central, in the cases of all of the people I have first-hand knowledge of who went on massive drug-fuelled benders at a young age and still struggle today.

Edit: I'm not saying religion = guaranteed to be fucked up.

I'm saying it tips the scales.

I eluded to the fact that life was different and fun when I left. Even at boarding school I had my addictions. Coke purely came about due to the fact I was a spoilt daddy's girl with too much free time and money on my hands..... My addictive nature is born out of boredom more than anything else.

As for struggling now.....naturally I face obstacles but I have not been near coke since I was 18.... When my parents moved to the isle of man taking me and my youngest sister with them . I love red wine but can go months without a glass (alcohol has never been an addiction for me) and if food starts to take over I put myself into abstention to give me some perspective

 

[Gwadien]

Religion needs to completely be deleted in order for it to have effects, the masses deciding not to follow a religion any more doesn't make a difference, the hardcore religious people are STILL religious, until they drop it, what's the difference?

 

[Raven]

I think its rather sad that religion is dying out in the uk.

I'm an atheist but I rather like churches and it saddens me to see them fall into neglect.

I also feel that the space the church once occupied in society has not been filled by anything good.

I think we would be better off as a nation if we were still a nation of churchgoers.

I too like churches and do actually visit quite a lot of them for the architecture. However, the church has fleeced enough money out of the public in the past, through lies and deceit, they can pay for their own repairs.

As for needing something to fill the void of church going, no no no. All the church ever did was make people insular and selfish. The breakdown of religion has nothing to do with the perceived breakdown of society, any more than the decline in pirates has seen a rise in sea temperatures.

 

[Vae]

I hate child rapists, I hate systems culpable for death and repression on massive scales. I speak out on it when I can.

If Sony was the corporation of child-rape and murder, would you not speak out?

Why does the church deserve your softly-softly appeasement Vae?

I don't believe in appeasement but equally your hate for religion is causing you to tarnish everyone associated with organized religion with the same brush. How many of the issues you mention are happening today? I would agree with you about the stance of the Catholic church on contraception. Also there are fanatics in every religion as can be seen, most evidently, in the US and Middle East. I quite like our CofE style religion. Non-intrusive, happy to see you if you do visit a church but, because of that, in rather a decline due to a lack of drive and fanaticism.

My experiences of organized religion seem to be very different to yours and therefore I base my opinions on them, just as you base your opinions on your experiences. All of the tone of your comments are utterly anti-religion to the point which it seems a personal crusade for you to disprove and ridicule other peoples beliefs. As others have pointed out even without religion, atrocities have happened. Look at Soviet Russia.

 

[rynnor]

I too like churches and do actually visit quite a lot of them for the architecture. However, the church has fleeced enough money out of the public in the past, through lies and deceit, they can pay for their own repairs.

Each should be judged on its merits but I wouldnt exclude them from lottery funds just because they were once a church.

The prefab ones that went up in the 50s I would happily bulldoze though.

 

[Scouse]

I'll deal with your post in chunks Vae. Then I'm going to get me some lunch and do the gardening

I don't believe in appeasement but equally your hate for religion is causing you to tarnish everyone associated with organized religion with the same brush. How many of the issues you mention are happening today?

I think you do believe in appeasement.

If Sony was campaigning for no condom use in Africa, or had been found guilty (and continues to be so) of enabling mass child-rape using their system of Sony-Centres. And if they were guilty of covering it all up - from the very top and in the present day - I suspect you'd be very vocal in shutting Sony down.

The catholic church is culpable for causing deaths in Africa and child-rape today. Right now. It's ongoing.

Without the organised structure these crimes would not be possible. And they're far from the only crimes.

This is a "company" that claims moral authority over us. That tells us that if we don't follow their teachings we will suffer an eternity of torture. A company that would torture and kill us for speaking out against it if it still could.

In my opinion we need to speak out loudly against this organisation lest our own complacency means we end up sleepwalking back into the situation where the church can start back on its own tricks again. It needs to die.

Not speaking out against it IS appeasement:

ap·pease
  verb
to bring to a state of peace, calm..sometimes at the expense of justice or other principles.

When is justice going to be served on the church for the deaths, torture, child-rape etc. etc. etc.? It won't happen if people don't speak out - things will calm down.

Also there are fanatics in every religion as can be seen, most evidently, in the US and Middle East.

Yes. Yes there are. All of the organised religions inspire fanaticism. In fact they demand it. - it's just that humans are quite often reasonable people and, when they can, they ignore the teachings of the church.

Like catholics in the UK using birth control. The church is powerless to stop them. And that's not just good - it's fucking great!

I quite like our CofE style religion. Non-intrusive, happy to see you if you do visit a church but, because of that, in rather a decline due to a lack of drive and fanaticism.

The CofE was responsible for many of the more puritanical problems in the past. Don't be fooled that a visit to a church is quite genial - it has to be or people wouldn't go back.

The modern ability to ignore the chuch because they can no longer compel you to do something on pain of death is certainly helping in it's slow decent into irrelevancy.

My experiences of organized religion seem to be very different to yours and therefore I base my opinions on them, just as you base your opinions on your experiences

Your direct experience of organised religion sounds very much the same as mine. Visits to churches were full of nice people.

My opinion is based not on my sole experience - that's an idiot's trap. It's based on widely-known documentary and physical evidence and intellectual rigour. I refuse to ignore and forgive the evils that church has done all throughout history just because it seems all "touchy-feely" now.

All of the tone of your comments are utterly anti-religion to the point which it seems a personal crusade for you to disprove and ridicule other peoples beliefs

Yes. Yes it is. I admit this in almost every thread I participate in on religion. I'm proud of it.

I stand against the child-rape, torture, sexual and intellectual repression and violence of organised religion in all its forms. I count myself as extremely fortunate to live in a time and a country where I can say what I'm saying without fear of death by torture at the hands of the church.

As others have pointed out even without religion, atrocities have happened. Look at Soviet Russia.

I agree. I don't deny it. But whilst I can't speak out against every single atrocity mankind commits I can certainly speak out against the ones that organised religion is solely culpable for.

War/rape/repression etc. All of these exist without religion - but are made worse and more frequent with it.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I refuse to ignore and forgive the evils that church has done all throughout history just because it seems all "touchy-feely" now.

I'll just comment on this bit, or a question of yes/no perhaps.

Do you think that it would be reasonable for me to "hate" Britain to same extent as you do organized religion, because it's not only mainly responsible for spreading said religion so far and wide, but also causing an insurmountable amount of death, rape, torture and war in the past, and call all it's denizens(majority of this forum) blinkered fools who every day support a nation of evil?

In not so many words

 

[Scouse]

I'll just comment on this bit, or a question of yes/no perhaps.

Do you think that it would be reasonable for me to "hate" Britain to same extent as you do organized religion, because it's not only mainly responsible for spreading said religion so far and wide, but also causing an insurmountable amount of death, rape, torture and war in the past, and call all it's denizens(majority of this forum) blinkered fools who every day support a nation of evil?

In not so many words

Easy. (And annoyingly simple and obvious - but I'll humour you for this post only).

The answer is an obvious "No".

The following reasons:

1. "Britain" is simply a place. It can't "do" anything.
2. Any inhabitents from its colonial past are A) essentially identical in makeup to everyone else and B) dead - so there's nobody to hold culpable.

Catholicism (for example) on the other hand is:

1. An idea. And idea that is the same now as it was a long time ago.
2. The same organised structure as existed long ago - the organisation can be held culpable and suffer the consequences.
3. Still committing those same (murder/child rape) atrocities today - the individuals can be held culpable and suffer the consequences.


There's bound to be many better ways of saying the above, but the above covers your question in enough detail for me to not feel the need to be drawn further into futile debate over details with you on this. If you can come up with a mass of evidence that counters religion's current and ongoing atrocities, that are resulting in the deaths of humans as we speak, then I may change my mind...

 

[old.Tohtori]

That's changing the question a bit though. We can't hold past actions of people in control of religion any more against modern people then we can the actions of past people in control of a nation. I think you'll find that a fair point. That ofcourse doesn't take away that modern religious leaders(some of them) have done actions that can and should be punished, but the past should be in the past when arguing modern state.

Or we should hold every past action in equal status.

If you want an example of how a nation does the same awful things as they did in the past(akin to religion doing them), you just have to look at Iraq.

 

[Scouse]

Lol Toht. Just fucking lol

 

[old.Tohtori]

So you're saying that a religions past actions can be held against it's current state, but a nations can't? Even if they have evolved in the same scale?

 

[Scouse]

Go back and read and understand failboy. The answer I've given you contains the answer to the bullshit you're coming out with now

 

[old.Tohtori]

Answer the question in simple yes or no, it's very easy.

 

[throdgrain]

When you get rid of our countries religion, the trouble is you dont seem to replace hardened god-botherers with enlightened free-thinkers (like what is probably reading this) you get OK reading X Factor watching retards instead.

 

[old.Tohtori]

We should just do as Scouse says and eradicate those who spread religion, thus cutting it from a root level problem. Nuke england and italy it is!

 

[rynnor]

When you get rid of our countries religion, the trouble is you dont seem to replace hardened god-botherers with enlightened free-thinkers (like what is probably reading this) you get OK reading X Factor watching retards instead.

Is it cause or effect though?

Seems to me religion is just a victim of the rise of individualism.

 

[Vae]

Good grief - I'm about to agree with Toht! It feels dirty but I think he's made a valid point. A country is as much an idea as simply a geographic location and if you're going to hold organised religion (or shall we be more specific and simply say the Catholic church as that seems to be where all your angst is targeted) responsible for the actions of individuals in an organisation in the past then why can't the same be said of holding the British responsible for their actions in the past (concentration camps, slave trading, death, murder, rape etc) as they are all part of an organisation, be it a country, army, government or whatever. Or what about black people holding all white people responsible for the slave trade and today living off the gains that trade brought? How far in the past can you hold a person or organisation?

While I disagree with the Catholic church's stance on contraception they (both individuals and the organisation they make up) are allowed to hold that belief and speak about that belief as you yourself acknowledge.

I've always stated that I support an individual's freedom to practice whatever form of spirituality they like.

Or maybe you don't:

In my opinion we need to speak out loudly against this organisation lest our own complacency means we end up sleepwalking back into the situation where the church can start back on its own tricks again. It needs to die.

In terms of Priests abusing children then deal with them using the existing laws as though they were a normal person. That's what the law is there for and I believe prosecutions have happened. Maybe not enough yet but that is up to the law to deal with. Same goes for the people covering it up but it doesn't extend to all members of a faith.

The world has changed. Many forms of authoritarian organisations (i.e. governments, kings etc) would have used torture and murder in the past. Some still do today, even in what we would term civilized countries, but it attracts condemnation when it happens even if we remain powerless to stop it (e.g. The US and Guantanamo bay etc).

I also believe you ignore the many good acts and deeds performed by people of all religions. You say the negatives outweigh the positives but how about letting the law deal with the crimes (i.e. the negatives) and let them continue with the positives?

 

[Scouse]

When you get rid of our countries religion, the trouble is you dont seem to replace hardened god-botherers with enlightened free-thinkers (like what is probably reading this) you get OK reading X Factor watching retards instead.

I don't disagree with a lot of that throddy - but that's primarily a failure of our educational systems and a whole other problem.

We don't really value intellectualism and enlightened free-thinking in our society, unfortunately. It makes things harder for our economic system if retards refuse to buy shit because they understand they don't fucking need it

 

[throdgrain]

I guess what I'm saying is , all in all, a lot of people in the world probably need religion to keep em quiet for another hundred years or two

 

[old.Tohtori]

If religion was removed, we'd just have more of these news;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/10/jared-lee-loughner-arizona-shooting
(in short; zealot atheist shoots people)

Ideas, nations, beliefs, none of those are evil, PEOPLE are evil. (evil here representing the notion that something is "not right to do", not good vs evil of religion).

That's the bottom line. If religion has made it so that even 1 person has found peace in it and NOT shoot up a school, then better for it.