Religion Good news!

[Scouse]

It's dying more quickly than I expected

New figures from the British Social Attitudes survey suggest that about half of Britons as a whole have a religious affiliation, sharply down from 20 years ago when it was two-thirds.

and, more tellingly:

Barely a quarter of young people now identify themselves as religious.

According to that article on the "moral scale" religion is about as important as paying tax.

Go go gadget kids!

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yeap, good news indeed;

• 4% said playing a part in the local community

Well spun though, give you credit(like) for turning it into a religion is dead issue

 

[Scouse]

How did I know you'd be first poster?

Anyway - I didn't "spin" it - the quotes are from the points the article makes and the poll is from BBC "Religion and Ethics" - so the whole point of the article is religious.

Yah-boo sucks, looozer

 

[Raven]

Good riddance. It serves no purpose any more. The corrupt have just found new ways to get money out of people though.

 

[old.Tohtori]

How did I know you'd be first poster?

Anyway - I didn't "spin" it - the quotes are from the points the article makes and the poll is from BBC "Religion and Ethics" - so the whole point of the article is religious.

Yah-boo sucks, looozer

It's spinning due to it being possible to say, in same effect and numbers, that community is dying and people are just more selfish.

But if we look at it from your chosen perspective, the article also says that religion and community involvement go hand in hand and that religion is the reason we act as a community, which is a good thing and it dying is a bad thing.

 

[gohan]

Were you molested as a child by a priest? Never known some one to hate religion so much.

I'm not religious and I don't care about it, but I'm not on a mission to see it die.... that's too much of my time for something I give no shits about.

 

[Chilly]

I think we'll probably be worse off without it and only left with the nutters who were before diluted by the masses of perfectly normal religious people who used it as a community hub and might also have had some slightly odd views on sky fairies.

 

[Scouse]

Considering only 4% said that religious faith was the most important thing I've still to see the total degredation of society.

It seems to me that religion is officially irrelevant...

 

[Raven]

Bullshit, you don't need religion to have a community.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Considering only 4% said that religious faith was the most important thing I've still to see the total degredation of society.

It seems to me that religion is officially irrelevant...

If i ask you to put in order what is most important to you and list; breathing, eating, sleeping, f*cking and donuts, you'll probably set donuts lowest on the list. This doesn't necessarily mean that donuts are irrelevant, or that you hate donuts, but instead means that you think other things are more important.

That's what i've been saying about religion for a long long time; only nutters, zealots and maniacs think of it all the time and base their every action on it and those nutters, zealots and maniacs are in every aspect of life, even atheism.

You can not fight the donutheory, it's nomproof.

 

[Yoni]

Bullshit, you don't need religion to have a community.

No you don't, but if you do have religion you are part of a community. If you attend church, mosque or go to meet with other like minded individuals regularly there are other benefits also.

Note I have a catholic background but I do not practice regularly, however even I the black sheep of my family will go to church when I need to, i find it gives me clarity when I need to make a big decision or comfort during times of sadness.

 

[Raven]

No you don't, but if you do have religion you are part of a community. If you attend church, mosque or go to meet with other like minded individuals regularly there are other benefits also.

Note I have a catholic background but I do not practice regularly, however even I the black sheep of my family will go to church when I need to, i find it gives me clarity when I need to make a big decision or comfort during times of sadness.

What difference does religion make? I know most of the people in my village and very few of them go to church. You do not need religion to meet your neighbours and community, you just need to open your door.

 

[Scouse]

No you don't, but if you do have religion you are part of a community.

This is true. However, it's a community that worships a something that doesn't exist and supports a system that's demonstrably responsible for a lot of the world's bads.

For those reasons (and many others) I'm glad religion is dying and increasingly irrelevant.

It's also completely not necessary anymore:

If you attend church, mosque or go to meet with other like minded individuals regularly there are other benefits also

You hit the nail on the head here.

i find it gives me clarity when I need to make a big decision or comfort during times of sadness.

I'm glad it gives you that. Honestly I am.

However, in the absence of religion you'd find other sources of that comfort.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

It's spinning due to it being possible to say, in same effect and numbers, that community is dying and people are just more selfish.

But if we look at it from your chosen perspective, the article also says that religion and community involvement go hand in hand and that religion is the reason we act as a community, which is a good thing and it dying is a bad thing.

Religion and community involvement do not go hand in hand, that logic is specious. If the stats in the article are correct and even allowing for Scouse's standard bigotry, the original post is a reasonable interpretation of the article.

 

[old.Tohtori]

that logic is specious.

Kind of the point of the post

 

[Yoni]

However, in the absence of religion you'd find other sources of that comfort.

Because my cocaine / food / other drugs / exercise addictions have served me so well..... I think you have a really twisted view on this subject and have to wonder like others if you were buggered by a priest when you were little.

Anything in extreme can have a disastrous effect, religion seems to be an easy target. For all extremists in the world there are hundreds of peaceful individuals who take some solace in their belief in a god.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I've been often trying to explain that to many religious folk it's like asking "do you like marmite?", a question that doesn't sit in the forefront of thought at all times, but if asked you have an answer.

People who think every religious person is a timebomb ticking away, with delusions of magical beings running through their mind 24/7 and no possible way to function in society are just the kind of ticking timebombs with delusions

 

[Raven]

Because my cocaine / food / other drugs / exercise addictions have served me so well.....

These aren't related to religion, they are a sign of an addictive personality, I have one too but I don't give in to it, I don't need a god to overcome them! If anything "oh it's OK, god will sort it out" is the worse thing you can do. You can sort it out and nobody else.

I don't really care whether people are religious, as long as they keep it to themselves and don't try and drag me into their madness. If they need it as a crutch then there isn't a great deal that can be done about it. You can't reason with them, they believe in something that is invisible, makes no sound, has no mass and has no effect on anything that happens in the world, they essentially believe in nothing at all yet let it rule their lives and set their moral compass.

Anyway, this sort of thread doesn't really go anywhere because of it's nature.

 

[Scouse]

Because my cocaine / food / other drugs / exercise addictions have served me so well..... I think you have a really twisted view on this subject and have to wonder like others if you were buggered by a priest when you were little.

Anything in extreme can have a disastrous effect, religion seems to be an easy target. For all extremists in the world there are hundreds of peaceful individuals who take some solace in their belief in a god.

No, I wasn't buggered by a priest but I resent the religiosity in my upbringing (from both family and educational establishments) that hampered my personal development at a critical time of my life. The absence of religion at that time in my life would have been extremely beneficial as it would have removed a lot of unnecessary guilt from a child. But that's just a personal view of how religion adversely affected me.

I disagree strongly that my view is "twisted" - because it's based on evidence and actual events.

Organised religion has been shown, again and again with irrefutable proof, to be responsible for countless horrendous atrocities against all of humankind. How is it "twisted" to want the death of this?

If a single man was a paedophile, warmonger, murderer, violent censor of truth and appeaser of atrocity then we would vilify him - but because stupid humans have an innate desire to bow to authority we fail to hold the church to account for the same crimes - crimes that have cost the lives of millions.

And that's just the catholic church - Islam, Judaeism, other forms of christianity, yadda yadda yadda, are guilty of the same - and you don't have to look far in the world to find evidence of religion's terrible influence and violent hateful crime that are going on right now, as I type.

Have your spirituality, by all means. I can see no real harm in that. Organised religion, and the structures that are built up around it, must die. For the sake of mankind.


As for your coke/food/drugs etc. I'm genuinely glad you've found something that gives you a healthier alternative. However - that does not mean there aren't other healthy alternatives that would have given you that support and it in no way excuses religion from its crimes.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I don't really care whether people are religious

You clearly do, as per your first reply.

Organised religion

That is not ALL religion.

Not to mention, you're taking only the negative from religion, removing all the positive it has done.

Now if you claim that "ethics and morals and all that would've come even without religion", i can reply already with "so would've the atrocities".

Religion isn't the problem, people are the problem and that can not be stopped by removal of any entity.

 

[Scouse]

Anyway, this sort of thread doesn't really go anywhere because of it's nature.

It's important though, Raven.

Years ago we could have been killed by the church for expressing these opinions. We are now free to express them - and express them we should.

The historical lack of being able to express those opinions, to read those opinions, to hear those opinions is part of why christianity has had a stranglehold over the west for nearly two thousand years - holding us back from scientific advancement, resulting in the deaths of many thousands by some of the most disgusting torture devices ever to come out of the imagination of man.


Religion needs a bashing. I intend to give it that bashing whenever the opportunity to expose its irrelevance, or its atrocities, or its hypocricies occurs.

 

[Chilly]

"evidence and actual events" of one person: you. I went to a CofE primary school, I had to pray and sing hymns twice a day. I don't resent it, it was just something I did. Our science lessons were correct, no one got bummed, the people in the school who were not christian were welcomed and accomodated. Who cares? 99% of the time religion is completely and utterly harmless and indeed, probably good.

Sure, it's caused (and continues) to cause all sorts of strife in the world, but that's not anything to do with religion in this country - it's all nutters in the US and the middle east. The bad aspects of religion will not be tolerated in this day and age, leaving only the good. I agree you do not need religion to have a community but it's one way of doing it and it appears to work quite well. It lends a nice structure to life - there is an appointed person to carry out important stages in life/death and everyone knows what is expected of them. Behaving badly carries guilt, which is essential in a decent society.

 

[Scouse]

That is not ALL religion.

I've always stated that I support an individual's freedom to practice whatever form of spirituality they like.

Not to mention, you're taking only the negative from religion, removing all the positive it has done.

The negative easily outweighs any positives.

Now if you claim that "ethics and morals and all that would've come even without religion", i can reply already with "so would've the atrocities".

You don't get the inquisition or the crusades - relgious persection and religious war - or the many other forms of relgious repression, sexual, mental, intellectual, without religion.

Organised religion is the evil it professes to combat.

Religion isn't the problem, people are the problem

Religion is the magnifying glass that concentrates the power of the people into burning hatred and intolerance and transforms human idiocy into a monstrous uncontrollable weapon.

 

[Chilly]

Religion needs a bashing. I intend to give it that bashing whenever the opportunity to expose its irrelevance, or its atrocities, or its hypocricies occurs.

The vast majority of religious atrocities are in the past. No mainstream religion has recently condoned any of the mad shit going down. It's been a long fucking time since Popes started wars and commanded armies.

You can make the same argument for the UK. We were top boy when it came to dealing in slaves, raping foreign countries for wealth, oppressing people and generally being total, complete assholes. We do a lot less of it these days (and in theory reduce our level of international cuntishness as time goes on) but there's no point going on about what some guys 200 years ago did. Accept it, change behaviour and move on.

 

[Scouse]

"evidence and actual events" of one person: you

History?

Current polticial events?

Why is it the supporters of religion are blind to atrocities such as child-rape, torture, murder and war?

The vast majority of religious atrocities are in the past

The *really* bad ones, yes. And that's because religion has lost it's stranglehold.

As religion loses its grip, so the atrocities will slowly come down in magnitude and frequency.

Of course, institutionalised child-rape in the western world is obviously "in the past" and not at all supported by the vatican as an ongoing concern. Neither is the catholic church's campain against condom use in AIDS-ridden Africa.

Don't make me laugh Chilly. If Catholicism was a corporation we'd have shut it down and jailed all of the top officials.

 

[Chilly]

History?

Current polticial events?

Why is it the supporters of religion are stupidly fucking blind to atrocities such as child-rape, torture, murder and war?

Show me an example where any of those things are condoned at the highest levels of a religion.

 

[Yoni]

If you read my original post it states that I am non practicing but yet it still helps to give clarity.

Nor did I say that religion solved my addictive personality. That was merely me making a point that there are far worse behaviours someone can adopt than popping to church every week.

Additionally I am sorry you resent your upbringing. I am fully aware of the guilt issues that Catholicism can develop. I went to a catholic convent boarding school from the ages of 10 to 16. Can you imagine the fun I had when I left hehehe.

I don't know why but I never viewed the strict catholic rules as such but as life guidelines which have actually stood me in good stead as I got older. Admittedly telling your children sex before marriage will send you to hell is a little extreme but my parents didn't explain sex in that way. They explained that it was how we procreate and that it was fun. The also explained the decision to have sex with someone is an important one which shouldn't be taken lightly (I agree with that), due to the emotional impact it can have on the young adult. Although my parents are devout themselves, they were always open to sensible debate. Having said that their house their rules, even now if I go and stay with them with Kris they give is two singles, we just squeeze into one or push them together

 

[Vae]

In many ways Scouse's rabid antipathy towards Religion seems as fanatical as those who believe in a religion!

 

[Yoni]

I've always stated that I support an individual's freedom to practice whatever form of spirituality they like.

The negative easily outweighs any positives.

You don't get the inquisition or the crusades - relgious persection and religious war - or the many other forms of relgious repression, sexual, mental, intellectual, without religion.
.

Are you really that naive????? War, rape, forms of repression will continue to exist regardless of religion.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Why is it the supporters of religion are blind to atrocities such as child-rape, torture, murder and war?

I can't speak for others, but i'm not blind to it, i'm saying it's not excluded to religion.

I've always stated that I support an individual's freedom to practice whatever form of spirituality they like.

You can't do that and then say all religion should be abolished. You should change it to "all organised religion assholes should be abolished" and i might even agree on it

You don't get the inquisition or the crusades - relgious persection and religious war - or the many other forms of relgious repression, sexual, mental, intellectual, without religion.

Not in those terms perhaps, but you still get them. Sexual, mental, intellectual repression isn't just in religion, wars and senseless violence neither.