Politics General Election 2017

[Gwadien]

Chavez was "widely loved" by the poor and rural Venezuelans, but he was loathed by the middle classes and the educated; most of whom buggered off to Colombia and Panama years ago. One part of the country's problems is that most of the people actually capable of running things aren't there any more.

Yeah, that's why left-wing groups love them so much, because it appeared to be a working socialist state, but it turns out it's super easy to do that when oil is going good.

It will be interesting to see what happens when this new President finally gets into power; I don't think after years of the poor having a decent life they're going to accept reverting back into a oil capitalist colony.

 

[DaGaffer]

Yeah, that's why left-wing groups love them so much, because it appeared to be a working socialist state, but it turns out it's super easy to do that when oil is going good.

It will be interesting to see what happens when this new President finally gets into power; I don't think after years of the poor having a decent life they're going to accept reverting back into a oil capitalist colony.

The poor didn't have a decent life; this is what's so baffling about Venezuela; Chavez didn't materially improve anything; any improvement in pay and employment paid for by oil (and Chinese infrastructure money) was easily offset by spiralling inflation and reliance on the black market for essentials, and this wasn't after a long decline; I was there in 2007 and everything was going down the toilet even then. The honeymoon period for Chavez was actually pretty short, and the country's dysfunction has been going on for well over a decade.

 

[Gwadien]

The poor didn't have a decent life; this is what's so baffling about Venezuela; Chavez didn't materially improve anything; any improvement in pay and employment paid for by oil (and Chinese infrastructure money) was easily offset by spiralling inflation and reliance on the black market for essentials, and this wasn't after a long decline; I was there in 2007 and everything was going down the toilet even then. The honeymoon period for Chavez was actually pretty short, and the country's dysfunction has been going on for well over a decade.

How much of that dysfunction can you attribute to outside hostility?

 

[Scouse]

Tom fucking Watson, once again, making antisemitism the lead issue for the Labour party and trying to enforce direct responsibility on to Corbyn, rather than an independent appointee, which is clearly the way to go (political independence anyone? - Labour have adopted the IHRA definition)

At about half of one percent of 540,000 members are investigated, the complaints are going to come and come and come. An all-party home affairs select committe stated that antisemitism was no more prevalent in the labour party than any other party.

Yet how much flack are the Tories or the Liberals getting considering they've got the same problems?

None. Absolute dick all.

 

[Embattle]

How much of that dysfunction can you attribute to outside hostility?

It happens because in a global economy you are not an island and thus when you try and run a country based on only communist/socialist ideals and think you can take over private foreign companies you shouldn't act surprised when your economy eventually tanks on all fronts.

 

[Gwadien]

It happens because in a global economy you are not an island and thus when you try and run a country based on only communist/socialist ideals and think you can take over private foreign companies you shouldn't act surprised when your economy eventually tanks on all fronts.

Oh right, so you're saying that oil in Venezuela should be owned by foreign companies?

How colonial of you.

 

[DaGaffer]

How much of that dysfunction can you attribute to outside hostility?

Feck-all. Example from someone I met when I was there; she worked in some management function for a telephone company; Chavez nationalised the phone company, cut everyone's wages, took everyone's Verizon shares (they were kicked out), and then flogged it to the Chinese. She was leaving for Panama and most of her friends had already gone.

 

[Embattle]

Oh right, so you're saying that oil in Venezuela should be owned by foreign companies?

How colonial of you.

You must be Chavez reincarnated if you feel the need to be stupid enough to use some sort of colonial stamp in your reply, that added to the fact you've tried pathetically to limit the nationalisation in Venezuela to just oil and while I can easily accept many countries have nationalised industries on some scale you'll find it an entirely different kettle of fish if you nationalise so much in rapid succession as Venezuela has done. This just compounded the excuses they gave for taking them over in the first place, in essence some were taken over because shockingly as costs increased due to inflation they passed on these costs and once taken over by the government not only did inflation speed up but the companies became less efficient, lost money, lost foreign investment, suffered more corruption, etc.

 

[Wij]

As with most of these regimes. Once they start becoming unpopular but won’t accept it then they can’t put the most competent people in important jobs because they will speak out against the corruption and incompetence. They increasingly can only appoint corrupt lackeys who will look the other way for a little cut. It becomes a vicious circle until no one is there to do a good job and everyone is there to steal a bit of the people’s money for themselves. Then the economy can only keep ticking along by denying reality and the people can only be kept from rebelling by fixing the elections and throwing dissenters in jail or shooting them. Venezuela has been on this journey for a while now and is at the end game.

 

[DaGaffer]

Oh right, so you're saying that oil in Venezuela should be owned by foreign companies?

How colonial of you.

You do understand the so-called "Venezuelan" Oil industry is completely underwritten by Chinese and Russian loans? Chavez just swapped one set of foreigners for another, the difference being the first lot actually built all of the oil infrastructure the Venezuelans nationalised.

How naive of you.

 

[Job]

Ade Apitan , watched his documentary on Africa last night.

He said some pretty controversial things...like pointing out that SA is taking all the land from whites and they will flee and take the economy with them, then he interviewed some poor blacks who said Mandelas struggle was for nothing, because so many people are destitute and there is now just elite blacks replacing the whites.

 

[Bodhi]

Tom fucking Watson, once again, making antisemitism the lead issue for the Labour party and trying to enforce direct responsibility on to Corbyn, rather than an independent appointee, which is clearly the way to go (political independence anyone? - Labour have adopted the IHRA definition)

At about half of one percent of 540,000 members are investigated, the complaints are going to come and come and come. An all-party home affairs select committe stated that antisemitism was no more prevalent in the labour party than any other party.

Yet how much flack are the Tories or the Liberals getting considering they've got the same problems?

None. Absolute dick all.

Tories and Liberals aren't headed up by a raving anti-semite, so that's probably why they don't get the same coverage.

 

[DaGaffer]

I note with interest that even pro-Israel super-lobbyists AIPAC feel Netanyahu has gone too far in the fascist fucknuttery stakes.

Pro-Israel US group condemns Netanyahu pact with extremists

 

[Embattle]

Netanyahu has been holding on by his finger nails recently.

 

[Scouse]

Labour MP who booked a room for a film, hosted by Jewish Voice For Labour, about antisemitism, is getting a fair bit of flack.

 

[Wij]

appearing with someone suspended from the party was probably unwise until the result of the inquiry is known. Bad optics at least:

Walker was initially suspended after she wrote about Jewish people as “financiers of the sugar and slave trade”, but was then reinstated. She was suspended again in September 2016 after saying she had not found a definition of antisemitism she could work with, and questioning why Holocaust Memorial Day was not more wide-ranging. She is reportedly facing a party hearing next month.

 

[Scouse]

appearing with someone suspended from the party was probably unwise until the result of the inquiry is known. Bad optics at least:

Because Jackie Walker complained that the definitions of antisemitism she was being given equated anti-zionism with antisemitism? And lets face it Holocaust Memorial Day IS equated with the "Nazi slaughter of the Jews" - rather than what it's actually about?

Meanwhile, in actual real news - France is moving to criminalize anti-Zionism.

Yep. That's right. It's going to lock people up who have the temerity to question the racist apartheid-state of Israel.

The French want to be able to lock me up for typing that. It's not anti-Jew (because I'm not). It's anti-Israel.


The fact that the argument is about how antisemitic Labour is (bullshit) rather than how antisemitism is being used to crush legitimate political debate is disgusting.

 

[Gwadien]

Because Jackie Walker complained that the definitions of antisemitism she was being given equated anti-zionism with antisemitism? And lets face it Holocaust Memorial Day IS equated with the "Nazi slaughter of the Jews" - rather than what it's actually about?

Meanwhile, in actual real news - France is moving to criminalize anti-Zionism.

Yep. That's right. It's going to lock people up who have the temerity to question the racist apartheid-state of Israel.

The French want to be able to lock me up for typing that. It's not anti-Jew (because I'm not). It's anti-Israel.


The fact that the argument is about how antisemitic Labour is (bullshit) rather than how antisemitism is being used to crush legitimate political debate is disgusting.

But the Transexuals are the problem!

 

[Wij]

Jewish people as financiers of slave trade.

Fine or maybe a touch dodgy?

 

[Scouse]

Jewish people as financiers of slave trade.

Fine or maybe a touch dodgy?

On the face of it I don't like it. She was reinstated after that. I guess you don't like the decision of the NEC. But cherry-picking much? What about about all the other stuff mentioned?

Especially this:

Meanwhile, in actual real news - France is moving to criminalize anti-Zionism.

Yep. That's right. It's going to lock people up who have the temerity to question the racist apartheid-state of Israel.

Come on @Wij. Where's your outrage? That's a state criminalizing it's own citizens who want to criticise another state. It's fucking thought-crime.

Cards on the table please Wij. Do you support the criminalisation of non-racist criticism of Israel or not?

That's a yes or no question. Please don't just duck again.

 

[Wij]

On the face of it I don't like it. She was reinstated after that. I guess you don't like the decision of the NEC. But cherry-picking much? What about about all the other stuff mentioned?

Especially this:


Come on @Wij. Where's your outrage? That's a state criminalizing it's own citizens who want to criticise another state. It's fucking thought-crime.

Cards on the table please Wij. Do you support the criminalisation of non-racist criticism of Israel or not?

That's a yes or no question. Please don't just duck again.

It's not a law yet and I haven't seen the exact wording or legal guidance (which I imagine would be in French anyway).

As the article states it's complicated. Anti-Zionism could be taken to mean all sorts of different things. Unless I know what it would apply to how can I condemn it?

For the record, as I've stated, I think criticising the current regime (or any previous regime really, it might be unjustified in some cases but that shouldn't make it illegal) is fine and shouldn't be made illegal obviously.

The problem is that often the lines are very blurred when people start criticising Zionists. Then I'd need to look at the individual case to know whether I thought it was really anti-semitism in a thin disguise or not. That would definitely make it hard to craft a law which is why I'd be concerned about what exactly is in the proposed French law.

However, in individual cases where I can look at what people have said about Zionists I can make a personal judgement about whether it looks anti-semitic or not. So can other people and that is why some people can still be censured even though they haven't said 'Jews are evil' or something like that.

Do you propose that anyone who uses the words Israelis and Zionists could NEVER be saying something anti-semitic? If so I've got a lot of stuff on Stormfront for you'll love.

 

[Scouse]

Do you propose that anyone who uses the words Israelis and Zionists could NEVER be saying something anti-semitic?

Nope. Of course not. Antisemities are most likely by default anti-zionist too, just because they hate jews.

Anti-Zionism could be taken to mean all sorts of different things.

Not really IMO. It's pretty clear that non-racist criticism of the state of Israel in any form (including the opinion that jews shouldn't be able to form a religious state, like people can disagree that a caliphate for muslims or the fucking vatican for christians are really bad ideas) is anti-zionist.

It's just bloody convenient that the lines are (faux) blurred by wankers isn't it.

Frankly, if we had freedom of speech then this would be much less of a problem. But we don't, so...

 

[Gwadien]

I just find it amusing that France band the burqa - a piece of clothing and everyone is cool with it, then they ban criticism of Zionism.

This is why anti-semitism is so high, if they can be criticism free - what power do Jews have?

I'm sure we will see a similar law soon.

 

[Scouse]

I just find it amusing that France band the burqa - a piece of clothing and everyone is cool with it, then they ban criticism of Zionism.

This is why anti-semitism is so high, if they can be criticism free - what power do Jews have?

That's understandable - but it's a dangerous way of thinking and to be avoided.

It conflates the two issues and offers support to zionists who say you can't be critical of zionism without being antisemitic.

If you'd asked the question what power do zionists have then it would be more reasonable - but even then, antisemites have started to swap out the word jews for zionists yo hide their antisemitism.

You can absolutely have non-jewish zionists. Look at bodhi...

 

[Wij]

but even then, antisemites have started to swap out the word jews for zionists yo hide their antisemitism.

Well that was my point so great.

 

[Bodhi]

That's understandable - but it's a dangerous way of thinking and to be avoided.

It conflates the two issues and offers support to zionists who say you can't be critical of zionism without being antisemitic.

If you'd asked the question what power do zionists have then it would be more reasonable - but even then, antisemites have started to swap out the word jews for zionists yo hide their antisemitism.

You can absolutely have non-jewish zionists. Look at bodhi...

You mean I think that Jewish people have a right to their own homeland, just like any other religion? Sure, I can agree with that - other religions have their own states, so why should Judaism be any different? To me it would be fairly anti-Semitic to suggest they can't.

Why anti-Zionism is seen as antisemitism | Letters

Good letter to show why the two "antis" so frequently overlap, and why the people affected by it (real Jewish people, not some angry nerds on an internet forum) see them as one and the same thing. Criticising the Israeli state is ok (but try praising it occasionally, as Israel is a great place and they are world leaders in tech and Life Sciences), denying it's right to exist is not.

Which is where Corblimey falls down, as most of his "friends" - including the ones that have recently been banned from the UK, prompting a hilarious response from the Labour front bench - deny it's right to exist. Terrorists, holocaust deniers, you say it he is friends with them - he's even got them in his own party ffs (Chris Williamson).

But muh, Israel or something.

 

[Job]

I just find it amusing that France band the burqa - a piece of clothing and everyone is cool with it, then they ban criticism of Zionism.

This is why anti-semitism is so high, if they can be criticism free - what power do Jews have?

I'm sure we will see a similar law soon.

Its not just a piece of clothing..its a sign of a cult.
The swastika is just a design..the hitler salute is just putting your arm in the air.
Stop making cults, forcing people to stay in them and then parade the weakest in your cult with the branding of it and then we can talk.

 

[Job]

You mean I think that Jewish people have a right to their own homeland, just like any other religion? Sure, I can agree with that - other religions have their own states, so why should Judaism be any different? To me it would be fairly anti-Semitic to suggest they can't.

Why anti-Zionism is seen as antisemitism | Letters

Good letter to show why the two "antis" so frequently overlap, and why the people affected by it (real Jewish people, not some angry nerds on an internet forum) see them as one and the same thing. Criticising the Israeli state is ok (but try praising it occasionally, as Israel is a great place and they are world leaders in tech and Life Sciences), denying it's right to exist is not.

Which is where Corblimey falls down, as most of his "friends" - including the ones that have recently been banned from the UK, prompting a hilarious response from the Labour front bench - deny it's right to exist. Terrorists, holocaust deniers, you say it he is friends with them - he's even got them in his own party ffs (Chris Williamson).

But muh, Israel or something.

I dont see how a religion has a right to a country..especially when it genocided its ownership of the land in recent memory, used terrorist tactics during the discussions and now totally ignores numerous and utterly toothless UN ..I'll call them suggestions.. while vastly extending that land grab right in front of the world.
Im pretty confident a second holocaust will descend on the jews within a hundred years.

 

[dysfunction]

Its not just a piece of clothing..its a sign of a cult.
The swastika is just a design..the hitler salute is just putting your arm in the air.
Stop making cults, forcing people to stay in them and then parade the weakest in your cult with the branding of it and then we can talk.

The "swastika" isn t just a design.
It's a symbol used a lot in history but become infamous due to Hitler.

Maybe you should learn a bit more and not spout so much rubbish.

 

[Job]

Whooosshhh