Politics General Election 2017

[Gwadien]

The Nazis didnt start with killing jews and world war on the manifesto..they set out similar goals and justified conquest with the good of Europe.

Mein Kampf...

 

[DaGaffer]

And you are conflating support for Israel per se with support for Netenyahu's regime. Demonising anyone who thinks Israel has a right to exist but might not necessarily think that its current actions are all brilliant.

And implying that some secretive Jews are covertly pulling financial strings.

Ah c’mon. Playing the “oh it’s Netenyahu, he’s the cunt and everything else is fine with Isreal” card doesn’t really fly either. After all, Israel is a democracy and they keep electing the fascist prick.

I don’t really have a dog in this hunt but as a casual observer, I’ve absolutely no doubt there’s a sustained PR narrative that says “anti-Israel= anti-Semite”, and it can be for pretty much any criticism of Israel, and many people, as with so much in modern life, self-censor because its too risky not to.

 

[Gwadien]

Could you imagine if Corbyn decided to back his party and do a people's vote?

The headlines @Wij would be posting 'Corbyn is inspired by new Venezuelan President'

 

[Wij]

Ah c’mon. Playing the “oh it’s Netenyahu, he’s the cunt and everything else is fine with Isreal” card doesn’t really fly either. After all, Israel is a democracy and they keep electing the fascist prick.

I don’t really have a dog in this hunt but as a casual observer, I’ve absolutely no doubt there’s a sustained PR narrative that says “anti-Israel= anti-Semite”, and it can be for pretty much any criticism of Israel, and many people, as with so much in modern life, self-censor because its too risky not to.

I was not the one blaming the Labour defections on Israel. I was not the one bringing 'shadowy conspiracies from Israel' into this argument. It was Scouse and Gwadien who were insisting that that was what it was all about and not about Corbyn being useless.

 

[Wij]

Could you imagine if Corbyn decided to back his party and do a people's vote?

The headlines @Wij would be posting 'Corbyn is inspired by new Venezuelan President'

Buh? You mean if Corbyn actually listened to his party rather than Seumas Milne? I'd be delighted tbh.

 

[Wij]

Anyway, Anna Soubry, Heidi Allen and Sarah Wollaston have quit the Tories now. I suppose that was Israel too was it?

 

[Gwadien]

Buh? You mean if Corbyn actually listened to his party rather than Seumas Milne? I'd be delighted tbh.

The UK wouldn't though - there'd be no coverage of the Government and their approach to Brexit it'd all be about IF Corbyn was in power he would undo a democratically voted referendum = suicide.

You can't seriously suggest to me if we had a far-right candidate vs a far-left candidate they'd have a level playing field; far-left is a direct threat to -everyone- in power who has money, of course they're going to make it hard as possible for that person to be voted in, by any means necessary.

I just think its fairly obvious there's a huge campaign to tarnish Corbyn, the problem is that it's working for the people that don't already like him, but it's having the reverse effect on his supporters.

 

[Gwadien]

Anyway, Anna Soubry, Heidi Allen and Sarah Wollaston have quit the Tories now. I suppose that was Israel too was it?

Funnily enough on that BBC documentary about the EU (had 3 episodes) there was a part of the episode where all these MPs who have resigned were having meetings about Brexit.

I guess there's a reason that the Labour MPs resigned first citing antisemitism then the Tories resigned the next day.

 

[Wij]

blah

Why isn't Corbyn questioning about how both Leave campaigns broke the law which could end up with government ministers being charged? Brilliant publicity for him and against the Tories. Then if he did want to punt for a second vote the public would already be softened up.

Why isn't he doing this? You can't blame that on people who have money or the press or Israel or whatever.

Why doesn't he come out harder against Putin, Assad and Maduro too? What would he lose by doing it? Which of the dark forces you talk about is stopping him doing this?

No-one is forcing him. It's because he is out of step with his party on Brexit and murderous authoritarian regimes (and many other things).

 

[Gwadien]

Don't you get in trouble for getting involved in foreign policy as the opposition?

Also, for the leave campaign stuff - I don't think it's an appropriate time, it would receive massive hostility when we're meant to be showing a united front to the EU.

Honestly, I think he'll wait until Brexit has passed then he'll make a move.

 

[Wij]

Don't you get in trouble for getting involved in foreign policy as the opposition?

Also, for the leave campaign stuff - I don't think it's an appropriate time, it would receive massive hostility when we're meant to be showing a united front to the EU.

Honestly, I think he'll wait until Brexit has passed then he'll make a move.

When it's too late to do anything. Sneaky.

 

[Scouse]

'shadowy conspiracies from Israel'

Oh come on - it's not "conspiracy" that there's a well funded Israel lobby that actively engages in antisemitic smear action to steer narrative along that front.

Up front, do you accept that? If you don't then there's no point in continuing the debate any further along these lines.

But this:

Not really helping their cause by implying shadowy wealthy Jews may be behind the whole thing:


View: https://twitter.com/michaeldweiss/status/1098038349254733825

Yeah, she backtracked quickly (although she didn't say "shadowy wealthy jews" - the inference is that the State of Israel may have a financial hand).

However the point that new "party" is being funded by a private company and the suspicion is that it's being financially backed by, perhaps, Labour Friends of Israel could be easily cleared up. They haven't released their source of funding - because they're not legally required to do so (because it's technically not a party - yet).

It would be easy to completely remove any suspicion that Israeli backing is being received by releasing a full and detailed source of funding for a "party to be" that now has a few tories in it too(?) What a fillip that would be - going over and above their legal requirement to be transparent - way to stuff it to the wankers who think Israeli finance may have a hand in it.

We're, rightly or wrongly, angry about undue financial influencing of the Brexit negotiations, so I think it's fair to level the requirement of these MPs, who have been damaging the Labour party chances of election since Corbyn was elected, to live up to the same standards of transparency of any other political party. That way they could honour the spirit, as well as the letter of the law.

So far, so "conspiracy". But you, in particular, are fucked off with as-yet unsubstantiated Trump electoral meddling by Russia so why the double standard with potential UK-political meddling by Israel?


I've raised the question (I don't think it's actually a "question") of "antisemitic smearing" of people and organisations who are critical of the state of Israel. Jeremy Corbyn is the first party leader who is openly critical and supportive of the Palestinians and look what's happening.

Ah c’mon. Playing the “oh it’s Netenyahu, he’s the cunt and everything else is fine with Isreal” card doesn’t really fly either. After all, Israel is a democracy and they keep electing the fascist prick.

I don’t really have a dog in this hunt but as a casual observer, I’ve absolutely no doubt there’s a sustained PR narrative that says “anti-Israel= anti-Semite”, and it can be for pretty much any criticism of Israel, and many people, as with so much in modern life, self-censor because its too risky not to.

I think it's totally possible this woman has self-censored. I think rather than shouting "oh do fuck-off - show us the money you're using and the source of that money" she's backtracked because she knows what's coming if she didn't.


But then "conspiracy" eh? I don't know (and neither do you @Wij) because I've not got access to the facts.

Would you call me antisemitic for asking those questions though?

 

[Gwadien]

When it's too late to do anything. Sneaky.

I mean if it was me, why would you want to intervene on something that is impossible to deliver?

I bet Labour generally (even if they didn't have Corbyn) are banking that Brexit will go tits up so on the next election they can pledge to have another referendum and then release all the shit that happened surrounding Brexit.

 

[Wij]

Oh come on - it's not "conspiracy" that there's a well funded Israel lobby that actively engages in antisemitic smear action to steer narrative along that front.

Up front, do you accept that? If you don't then there's no point in continuing the debate any further along these lines.

But this:


Yeah, she backtracked quickly (although she didn't say "shadowy wealthy jews" - the inference is that the State of Israel may have a financial hand).

However the point that new "party" is being funded by a private company and the suspicion is that it's being financially backed by, perhaps, Labour Friends of Israel could be easily cleared up. They haven't released their source of funding - because they're not legally required to do so (because it's technically not a party - yet).

It would be easy to completely remove any suspicion that Israeli backing is being received by releasing a full and detailed source of funding for a "party to be" that now has a few tories in it too(?) What a fillip that would be - going over and above their legal requirement to be transparent - way to stuff it to the wankers who think Israeli finance may have a hand in it.

We're, rightly or wrongly, angry about undue financial influencing of the Brexit negotiations, so I think it's fair to level the requirement of these MPs, who have been damaging the Labour party chances of election since Corbyn was elected, to live up to the same standards of transparency of any other political party. That way they could honour the spirit, as well as the letter of the law.

So far, so "conspiracy". But you, in particular, are fucked off with as-yet unsubstantiated Trump electoral meddling by Russia so why the double standard with potential UK-political meddling by Israel?


I've raised the question (I don't think it's actually a "question") of "antisemitic smearing" of people and organisations who are critical of the state of Israel. Jeremy Corbyn is the first party leader who is openly critical and supportive of the Palestinians and look what's happening.


I think it's totally possible this woman has self-censored. I think rather than shouting "oh do fuck-off - show us the money you're using and the source of that money" she's backtracked because she knows what's coming if she didn't.


But then "conspiracy" eh? I don't know (and neither do you @Wij) because I've not got access to the facts.

Would you call me antisemitic for asking those questions though?

They just said they would declare all donations above £1,500 like they are supposed to so yeh.

 

[Wij]

I mean if it was me, why would you want to intervene on something that is impossible to deliver?

I bet Labour generally (even if they didn't have Corbyn) are banking that Brexit will go tits up so on the next election they can pledge to have another referendum and then release all the shit that happened surrounding Brexit.

The old, we stand a good chance of getting in if the other lot wreck the country, gambit.

Brilliant. I can spot no flaw in that plan.

 

[Scouse]

They just said they would declare all donations above £1,500 like they are supposed to so yeh.

Win.

 

[Job]

They are considering forcing by elections for deserters.

That would be interesting.

 

[Scouse]

They just said they would declare all donations above £1,500 like they are supposed to so yeh.

As an aside - why above £1500? Why not register and declare all donations?

It's not like people walk up to them on the street and say "here's a fiver for the Tory Party". And if that's the case, they should take the details and record it correctly.

It's pretty simple stuff. If I can track 118m of this years spend globally, and account for who did what and when, down to pence, then keeping a complete register of political donors and publishing it can't be hard.

 

[Job]

Good god lib dems broadcast.

Go fuck yourselves.

 

[Scouse]

Good god lib dems broadcast.

Go fuck yourselves.

LINK ffs! What the hell is wrong with you?!

 

[Scouse]

@Wij! You'll be happy about this:

Derek Hatton suspended from Labour Party two days after being re-admitted


But funnily enough - this is the reason he's been suspended:

in 2012 Hatton tweeted: “Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel!”

So - he's appealing to Jews to speak out against the State of Israel.

If there is no "chilling effect" on speaking out against Israel, then what is this? It's plainly not antisemitic to criticise Israel. So if the action of doing so automatically means being suspended then what the hell else is going on?

 

[Job]

LINK ffs! What the hell is wrong with you?!

It was still on tv.

Heres the iplayer link.it started half way through this on the actual broadcast.

BBC iPlayer - Party Political Broadcasts - Liberal Democrats - 20/02/2019

 

[Scouse]

Meh. Watched it. They're allowed to campaign for what they want.

Edit: @Embattle - the problem with communicating only with emoji rating things is that I'm not sure what you think is funny. Funny that hatton's been suspended after two days (yep), funny that it was for an innocuous tweet from 2012? Funny that it's coincided with exactly what we've been talking about?

 

[Embattle]

Well firstly after the song and dance of him joining he has been suspended already and secondly you again waffling on about the chilling effect and that my previous retort still stands to cover that.

 

[Wij]

@Wij! You'll be happy about this:

Derek Hatton suspended from Labour Party two days after being re-admitted


But funnily enough - this is the reason he's been suspended:



So - he's appealing to Jews to speak out against the State of Israel.

If there is no "chilling effect" on speaking out against Israel, then what is this? It's plainly not antisemitic to criticise Israel. So if the action of doing so automatically means being suspended then what the hell else is going on?

I suspect it was more to do with realising what a fucking terrible decision it was. A man who nearly destroyed Liverpool and has spent the decades since as a shady capitalist in a tax haven with UKIP mates.

His tweet could be interpreted as blaming UK Jews for Israel’s actions. Maybe it wasn’t but it gives them
An excuse to walk back on admitting a terrible cunt at a time when they don’t need bad publicity.

What about the Conservative defectors today. Was that Israel or are some things allowed not to be?

 

[Scouse]

His tweet could be interpreted as blaming UK Jews for Israel’s actions

That'd be a fucking stretch. A real fucking stretch. In fact, it'd be total fabrication to read that into this sentence:

"Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel!"

What about the Conservative defectors today. Was that Israel or are some things allowed not to be?

lol. really?

I don't know. Have they been calling Jeremy Corbyn antisemitic? Because that's what I've been talking about. I don't give a fuck about the numerous reasons they've left - any of them - but I do give a fuck about the dishonest antisemitism smears.

 

[Wij]

That'd be a fucking stretch. A real fucking stretch. In fact, it'd be total fabrication to read that into this sentence:

"Jewish people with any sense of humanity need to start speaking out publicly against the ruthless murdering being carried out by Israel!"


lol. really?

I don't know. Have they been calling Jeremy Corbyn antisemitic? Because that's what I've been talking about. I don't give a fuck about the numerous reasons they've left - any of them - but I do give a fuck about the dishonest antisemitism smears.

I know thats what you’ve been talking about. You’ve been turning every conversation to be about it.

I haven’t been in the football thread or the birds arses thread for a bit but I wouldn’t be surprised if you brought it up there.

 

[Scouse]

I know thats what you’ve been talking about. You’ve been turning every conversation to be about it.

Infuriating when you're trying to talk politics and some cunt brings up antisemitism at every opportunity isn't it.

 

[Job]

Meh. Watched it. They're allowed to campaign for what they want.

Edit: @Embattle - the problem with communicating only with emoji rating things is that I'm not sure what you think is funny. Funny that hatton's been suspended after two days (yep), funny that it was for an innocuous tweet from 2012? Funny that it's coincided with exactly what we've been talking about?

Calling brexit a national humiliation is the perfect way to mend divisions isnt it..
Were right and youre all idiots

 

[Scouse]

Calling brexit a national humiliation is the perfect way to mend divisions isnt it..
Were right and youre all idiots

Meh. It's how most people from outside britain, and almost half inside britain see it.