Politics General Election 2017

[Wij]

That doesn't even make sense. Corbyn publicly (very) disagreed with all his leaders, even when he wasn't a veteran, and was allowed to remain an MP. MPs who publicly disagree with Corbyn are being hounded. What the fuck has that got to do with class? They disagree on anti-semitism and brexit.

'It's different when Corbyn does it because reasons...'

Oh and they also disagree with Corbyn because he pledged to make the party listen to its members but now he just listens to Saemus Milne and ignores the members when it doesn't suit him.

Also, Assad & Putin apologia.

 

[Scouse]

Corbyn was pretty much the most disloyal Labour MP ever. Who was sending death threats to him for it?

By Gwadien's logic Corbyn should have resigned from the party when Smith was made leader, when Blair was made leader, when Brown was made leader, when Miliband was made leader. Ridiculous argument.

I'm not sure pointing at the past and going "look at what he didn't do" (he didn't resign from labour did he?) is an argument saying:

A) That labour is institutionally antisemitic
B) That he's not there democratically

Those are the only thing that matters here.

 

[Gwadien]

I feel like this is like calling UKIP Nazis but to a major political party.

It's just attempts to discredit a threatening movement amongst the young in the UK by targeting their views and portraying them as wrong when there's nothing wrong with them.

There were attempts to discredit him about meeting with the IRA and other terrorist arguments, but then it appeared that people realised that Corbyn was doing the right thing all along so they stopped going down that line of prejudice.

Again, I'd like to point out that I don't support Corbyn, I agree with many of his views, including his views on Israel, but I appreciate that him being in Government would be devastating, I just feel like all this shit about 'having anti-semitism in the party' is just smokes and mirrors to the reality that he's a threat to the business world whilst continuing to stop discussions on traditional no-go areas.

Corbyn supported his own party over the Tories, but it appears that these Tory-Lites just want a return of 'New Labour' by any means possible.

 

[Bodhi]

Or maybe they just don't want to be in a party run by an anti semitic terrorist sympathiser?

 

[Scouse]

Or maybe they just don't want to be in a party run by an anti semitic terrorist sympathiser?

Evidence. Or just repeat the same old tired shite?

 

[Embattle]

Evidence. Or just repeat the same old tired shite?

 

[Scouse]

Rich, coming from a man who doesn't enter any argument because he's too damn scared to.

 

[Embattle]

Rich, coming from a man who doesn't enter any argument because he's too damn scared to.

Actually as has often been proven it ends up being rather pointless....Captain Preachy (Leo).

 

[Scouse]

Actually as has often been proven it ends up being rather pointless....Captain Preachy (Leo).

The whole thread is pointless - nobody has changed their position one bit, despite evidence often being provided. (Although nobody has been able to show Corbyn is the remotest bit antisemitic).

At least I'm involved, rather than hiding behind a sofa lobbing gifs at the forum

 

[Wij]

I have relatives who have been Labour members longer than Corbyn. He doesn’t represent their views.

Also his rating amongst the young has tanked.

 

[Scouse]

I have relatives who have been Labour members longer than Corbyn. He doesn’t represent their views.

So? If they're old they're probably tories now anyway

Plus - you've still not answered the two questions I've repeatedly put to you based on your original post:

1) How is labour "institutionally racist"
2) Is he there undemocratically?

To be fair - I don't give a monkeys about number 2, number 1 however has been laid at his door repeatedly - and as far as I can tell it's simply a narrative to fuck Labour over with no sound basis.

 

[dysfunction]

They could take a tougher line against the tiny group who are antisemitic. That may rid them of this reputation.

 

[Wij]

So? If they're old they're probably tories now anyway

Plus - you've still not answered the two questions I've repeatedly put to you based on your original post:

1) How is labour "institutionally racist"
2) Is he there undemocratically?

To be fair - I don't give a monkeys about number 2, number 1 however has been laid at his door repeatedly - and as far as I can tell it's simply a narrative to fuck Labour over with no sound basis.

Those aren’t what I said though. I said that anti-semites aren’t being adequately dealt with and that Corbynites have been hounding Luciana Berger. These things are true. However, and more importantly, the reason these MPs are breaking away NOW is because Corbyn is ignoring the party’s views, and democratically voted for approach to, Brexit.

Labour cannot win a general election without the support of remainers.

Most Labour members who’ve been in the party for years disagree with Corbyn on Brexit, Assad, Venezuela, Russia and NATO.

 

[Wij]

And the fucking loyalty pledge:

'A Bit Ridiculous': Labour MPs Divided Over 'Loyalty Pledge'

Wtf. So if entryists got Jacob Rees Mogg elected leader they should still fight for a Labour government because it would still be called Labour?

Ridiculous tribalism.

 

[Wij]

Also this. Corbynites have been actively TRYING to get these MPs kicked out of the party.


View: https://twitter.com/ElephantEager/status/1097399135878201344


Why should they stay?

 

[Wij]

So? If they're old they're probably tories now anyway

No. They aren’t Kate Hoey...

Wait, she’s still there *scratch-chin-smiley*

 

[Wij]

And the fucking loyalty pledge:

'A Bit Ridiculous': Labour MPs Divided Over 'Loyalty Pledge'

Wtf. So if entryists got Jacob Rees Mogg elected leader they should still fight for a Labour government because it would still be called Labour?

Ridiculous tribalism.

A bit like this:


View: https://twitter.com/Kasparov63/status/1097600947361116160

 

[Wij]

Also this. Corbynites have been actively TRYING to get these MPs kicked out of the party.


View: https://twitter.com/ElephantEager/status/1097399135878201344


Why should they stay?

And:


View: https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1097613367693508609

 

[Scouse]

Look @Wij. I give zero fucks about the ins and outs of momentum. I've already said I'm not a corbyn supporter - in fact he'd be a personal disaster if he won a GE I reckon because he would go after the wrong people.

But he ain't antisemitic. Is he.

 

[Wij]

Look @Wij. I give zero fucks about the ins and outs of momentum. I've already said I'm not a corbyn supporter - in fact he'd be a personal disaster if he won a GE I reckon because he would go after the wrong people.

But he ain't antisemitic. Is he.

Why are you so desperate to make it about 1 point that couldn’t be proven given your narrow definition?

All I’ve said on the subject is that many loyal Labour members feel his response to anti-semitism in the party has been weak. That seems a fair criticism. You expect me to find a video of him saying ‘Fucking filthy Jews’ or to exonerate him. That’s not the point.

I said that he’s in disagreement with long standing members over many issues and that currently Brexit is the most pressing one. I’m not wrong on that. He is from a different political place to most of the party for decades. They are fed up with that and with his hypocrisy (opposing me is bad although I opposed all my leaders... I’ll hand power to members except every time they disagree with me) and above all that that he is fucking useless at being the leader of the opposition.

 

[Scouse]

I'm not desparate @Wij. Like I said - he's not for me.

But I don't think he's been 'weak' on antisemitism at all. I think it's an issue and argument that he will never be allowed to get out from under because he's making a principled stance against Israel and it's disgusting racist actions as a state.

Actually - I think it's a mark of strength thst he's putting up with this shit when all other politicians in his position have either caved or actively colluded.

For that alone he deserves some plaudits - and the knob goblins who've left labour and used the term "institutionally racist" against the party they used to support, when it's clearly not, shows what sort of people they are, as much as what Corbyn's about.

We can agree or disagree all day about him @Wij but what surprises me is that you won't just say "yeah, he's clearly not a racist or an antisemite, but I fucking hate him for appearing on Russia Today too much" or somesuch.

I've clearly explained my position on this several times. Why can't you directly answer my question in return? Antisemite, yes or no?

I mean - if you think he is, we'll agree to disagree. But at least we'll have gotten somewhere amongst all this shite

 

[Wij]

He’s clearly weak at combating anti-semitism and it isn’t all about the actions of the current Israeli government. That’s my position. I don’t need to explain it any further.

He is also surrounded by Putin apologists and Assad apologists and he’s defying his party’s will on Brexit.

 

[Scouse]

I disagree about being weak at dealing with antisemitism. I think he just wants adult nuance in the argument. But I'm happy to disagree with you on that.

But you still haven't said whether you think he's an antisemite (which is a totally separate question: an "I'm not sure" would do if you don't like to be pinned down).

The reason I'm pushing for you to nail your colours to the mast is that you can hold the view that he's weak on antisemitism, fair enough, but if you're coy on the other then you weaken your own argument IMO.


Edit: It's really weird debating with you on this. You're a yorkshireman, why not answer a straight question with a straight bat? Even a "I don't want to say, and I don't want to tell you why" would be better than what you're giving....

 

[Wij]

The reason I haven't answered is that it's not central to my claims about Corbyn or those being made by the group of MPs we are talking about. If he is weak at tackling anti-semitism then that's bad in and of itself.

I've said I don't know what your standard of proof for proving a person is anti-semitic is. It seems to me you'd just dismiss anything except a 'filthy fucking Jews' comment as evidence of an anti-Israeli stance not an anti-semitic one.

I've never said he is personally anti-semitic. That's a strong argument to make about someone I've never met and whose problematic behaviour in this area is more by association and apparent 'oh, I didn't realise' than direct behaviour.

But let's look at a few of those things. The big-nosed bankers controlling the world mural. He supported the artist until the controversy got too loud and then claimed he hadn't really looked at it that hard. That's ridiculous. However do I know that inside his head he was thinking 'haha this sticks it to the Jewish scum'? No I don't. If that's what I have to prove then you are setting me up to fail. Perhaps he really just isn't very bright and doesn't think too much about what might be offensive to Jews. Does that meet your definition of an anti-semite? Maybe it doesn't but does that mean I'm justified in thinking it makes him unsuitable to be Labour leader? I'd say so yes.

Similar things can be said about his support for Raed Salah and Hizbollah, his participation in Facebook groups that spread anti-semitic memes (oh, I didn't look at them) and his comments about Zionists not getting irony (it's because he's so amazingly anti-racist that he can't even think how people might possibly misinterpret his statements).

I don't care whether I or anyone else specifically calls him personally an anti-semite. His behaviour in this area is problematic enough already. Imo it's just a trap being set so that whatever problems there are in the party Corbyn can be personally exonerated and the blame found elsewhere.

(so I don't know and it doesn't affect the argument about him much)

 

[Scouse]

Fair enough. I count that as an "I don't know".

No trap @Wij. I just wanted to know.

I, personally, think he's clearly anti-zionist and anti-Israel and if the above is the worst they can dig up on a politician who's spent his life in grey areas (whilst often proven right) alongside the constant pressure of laying responsibility for the behaviour of a tiny amount of entryists at his feet (they're illegitamate when it comes to representing Labour, but totally legitamately represent Corbyn's antisemitism?) then it's actually evidence of the reverse.

There's nothing on Corbyn but guilt by (loose) association - and people like @Bodhi, who'd happily use Corbyn's tactic of being close to the IRA as a method of ending violence (in the end the correct method) to show he's clearly a 'terrorist sympathiser' (whst is that, exactly? is that someone who can recognise the depth of feeling enough people have about things to make large numbers of them commit campaigns of murder? what about people who can see the failings on both sides of a war? are we both 'Saddam Hussain sympathisers' @Wij?) aren't being adult enough to understand that our 'standard' way of representing situations is not only unhelpful, but counterproductive - keeping us locked in to cycles of violence.

Like happened with the IRA and is happening with Israel now.

Because of the above I don't for a second believe he's antisemitic or racist. I think his hatred (if that's the right term) is reserved for people who think a certain way. And I'm totally ok with that because it's hatred of ideas (religion, idiocy), not a mythical 'sort' of person.

The original article that sparked this discussion is full of a group of splitters (fine) who level the antisemitism trope at him and labour (bullshit). That's the only thing I object to - which is why I'm focussing on that.

The people who left aren't the shining lights they profess to be. They know the consequences when it comes to Tory rule and that we're weeks away from leaving the EU - and some of them represent constituencies that voted leave very heavily (who are they supposed to represent again?) but, again, I don't really give a monkeys about that - just that they're lending their support to a narrative that supports a violent, racist, terrorist state and weakens opposition to it.

I'd happily see blighty's GDP drop by 15% for 25 years if it meant Israel as a "Jewish" state ceased to exist and was replaced by a secular and inclusive state with equal rights, protections and representation for all of it's inhabitants. At the moment it's a cancer on humanity (not the only example, granted, but it's on Europe's border) and it's a problem that needs to be solved.

Brexit is fucking chump-change compared to that IMO.

 

[Embattle]

I personally don't know if he is but I sure as hell don't know that he isn't and please stop trying to cover off his utter failings as some sort of strategy, they really aren't anything of the sort.

In the age of utterly useless politicians and politics and with May leading the Tories through one failure after another the corbynistas tend to be leaders only in criticism while ironically not realising the man who leads them still can't seem to win and the Labour party has developed a proper split first.

 

[Gwadien]

If Corbyn dealt with anti-Israelism then he'd lose his support base, that's why he's not 'dealing with it'.

The most recent evidence of 'anti-semitic attacks' was someone calling someone a 'Zionist' (I can't remember who/where though), that seems fine to me, that's like criticising Wahhabism in my eyes.

My Corbyn supporting friends see their leaving as a huge positive as they were in the party doing everything they can to undermine it - so embattle you're wrong, labour split when he became leader because these power hungry dicks just want their seat even if they don't follow their party.

 

[Scouse]

Labour got their biggest jump in the vote in, like, 60 years. I think, despite everything, he clearly could win - but the thing that is stopping him is the splitters in the Labour party. The arguing and sniping from the sidelines and constant undermining is the thing that makes Labour a big enough joke to stop them getting across the line...

 

[Gwadien]

I'd like to see more done about racism in the Tory party it's clearly way more prevalent, but no, let's focus on people criticising Israel.

 

[Job]

High Grant on the tv.
Politicians..egotistical, narcists who dont actually have the countries future in mind, but are more concerned with scoring points off each other in public.