Politics General Election 2017

[DaGaffer]

Before the Tories got in, those in the public sector enjoyed raises well above inflation. Private sector very close to inflation. Austerity is working, less people out of work, less small business going to the wall. You cannot borrow your way out of debt, spending more than we earn will not make the deficit smaller. The hugely bloated public sector needed cutting back and still needs cutting back, not from the front line but the middle and top.

As for those claiming benefits (While not trying to belittle them) most don't even bother voting, they are unimportant from a political stand point. Aside from illness or a disability there is absolutely no excuse for being out of work and hasn't been for the last 5 years.

How quickly we forget. Austerity is so the government could give 1.2 trillion quid to the banks, or if you prefer, 11 years of running the NHS. Austerity has become its own narrative while the reasons for it have been quietly forgotten. The banks certainly "borrowed their way out of debt", although some of them seem to be having a bit more trouble with the paying it back part.

 

[Raven]

Gifts to banks is not the same as government borrowing.

The banking fuck up is completely separate, and not something that will go away under any government or any party.

Personally I couldn't give a shit if every bank in the land went bust over night but for the economy and the people in general, it would be disastrous.

 

[Job]

Must admit I don't look on increased use of food banks as a bad thing, in fact quit the opposite.


Why it’s wrong to be ashamed of Britain’s food banks | The Spectator

So correct, the amount of spare food in this country, it would be a travesty not to give it to people in a temporary rut.
To use them for political gain is disgusting.

 

[DaGaffer]

Gifts to banks is not the same as government borrowing.

The banking fuck up is completely separate, and not something that will go away under any government or any party.

Personally I couldn't give a shit if every bank in the land went bust over night but for the economy and the people in general, it would be disastrous.

The Government had to borrow the money to give to the banks, of course the two things are connected! Labour public sector overspend in isolation would have been manageable. The difference is the Tories now use what happened to continue to justify an ideological position and everyone buys into it without remembering the root cause of the problem (which wasn't public sector spending in its own right). Austerity was supposed to have an end date, but its now a permanent state.

 

[Raven]

Yes, but emergency borrowing (with the aim of getting it back one day...whether that happens...) is not the same as planning on living in an ever larger overdraft. Paying people with tax money and borrowed money to basically sit on their arse all day in the public sector does not increase tax income. Encouraging private enterprise not only reduces the tax burden of public sector wages and benefits to the out of work but generates tax income through spending, income tax and corporate tax.

I don't actually understand why they bother taxing people in the public sector at all anyway, all it does is mean you pay people out of the tax pot and then take some back, with a load of faffing about in the middle. They would be better off paying them less and not taxing them at all.

 

[Scouse]

with the aim of getting it back one day

It was never the aim.

 

[Gumbo]

On banks.

We get lumps back every now and again when we sell shares. It had to be done otherwise we would have gone down a hole to a really dark place.

Oh, and don't forget, it WAS Labour that gave those banks the money....

 

[Gumbo]

The Lib Dems are a bit cheeky/massively dishonest.

They said that they wouldn't enter into any deals or pacts in an effort to get away from the stigma left over from the coalition, and yet. They aren't fielding a candidate in Brighton, to help the Greens out, and then as if by magic, suddenly the Greens aren't fielding a candidate against the Lib Dem leader in Westmorland and Lonsdale.

I'm going to laugh hard when Farron loses his seat.

 

[Job]

I'd love to see the one Green voter walk out and announce they voted Tory instead.

 

[DaGaffer]

On banks.

We get lumps back every now and again when we sell shares. It had to be done otherwise we would have gone down a hole to a really dark place.

Oh, and don't forget, it WAS Labour that gave those banks the money....

You're missing the point. The Tories are running policy off the back of the debt the country had to shoulder after the banking crisis; the logic going that the country should be fiscally responsible and run a surplus so there's money on hand to cope with economic downturns/shocks etc. and this is now accepted as the only way the economy can be handled. The reality is that even running a regular surplus wouldn't have reduced the impact of the banking crisis materially. The country has only run a surplus eight times in the last 62 years and on each occasion its been a pretty modest one (handful of billions at best). Yes, Labour, particularly under Gordon Brown, were spending too much (although it looks worse than it was because the objective was to run public spending as a percentage of GDP at the same level as other EU countries and he did it too quickly and crashed into the banking crisis at exactly the wrong time; borrowing was due to start reducing again in 2009), but even in their worst year the deficit was still only one twelfth of the cost of the bank bailout. The Tories would need to run a surplus for a hundred years to have the money on hand to deal with that kind of financial shock, and they know it. That's my point, the issue is no longer about economics, its about ideology, and the hard rightists of the Tories who run the show would be happy to see to everything run by the market, even when it demonstrably doesn't help the majority of people - particularly in healthcare and education.

 

[Gumbo]

I haven't missed any points. You're extrapolating points that I didn't make?

I merely suggested that we get some back every now and again when we sell the shares that we bought, which is true.

I suggested that we didn't have a lot of choice in doing it in the first place, which IMO is also true. You cuold argue that we should have let it all crash down, but this would be a mad mad country now if we had.

I also suggested that it was Labour that did it, people can't keep rewriting history and suggesting that it was the Tories that saved the banks. Although I have no doubt that they would have done the same, see above.

Healthcare is fucked, I wrote this on another forum this morning. It was in a tax thread, but is relevant here somewhat.

I've often thought that those with private health insurance should get a tax rebate.

The NHS was founded to give free healthcare to all. But that was to set broken bones, remove an appendix. Perhaps cut out a tumour then hope for the best. It was when old people died pretty quickly instead of being kept alive for years and years with expensive treatments. We didn't have MRI's and CT's, we didn't have chemotherapy, and heart transplants.

As we get cleverer and use more and more expensive stuff, how is it ever going to be truly affordable into the future? No matter how much extra tax we pay, until there is nothing left to tax.

Perhaps if more people had insurance, so the insurance companies paid when expensive treatments were needed, rather than the treasury paying, it would leave more money for those that can't afford insurance at all to get treated?

So if my premium is £100 a month, perhaps I should get £30 off my tax bill, to incentivise it? Roughly 20% of tax goes on Health, so I'd still be sending some to help and cover A&E etc. I'm sure cleverer people than I could come up with a formula.

 

[DaGaffer]

I haven't missed any points. You're extrapolating points that I didn't make?

I merely suggested that we get some back every now and again when we sell the shares that we bought, which is true.

I suggested that we didn't have a lot of choice in doing it in the first place, which IMO is also true. You cuold argue that we should have let it all crash down, but this would be a mad mad country now if we had.

I also suggested that it was Labour that did it, people can't keep rewriting history and suggesting that it was the Tories that saved the banks. Although I have no doubt that they would have done the same, see above.

Healthcare is fucked, I wrote this on another forum this morning. It was in a tax thread, but is relevant here somewhat.

You jumped into a conversation I was having with Raven about austerity that was caused by the banking crisis but is now being used by the Tories for ideological destruction of public services. Its actually irrelevant that Labour saved the banks, its what the Tories are using crisis for now that's important.

And your description of insurance for healthcare is fine, but there's already a mechanism to do that, uncap NI (or at least raise it for higher earners). That's what its supposed to do anyway but is no longer being used progressively. All your stuff about the original intent of the NHS is neither here nor there; other countries also have exactly the same issue but fund their healthcare better (not vastly better, but enough - see graph). Britain could spend more of its GDP than it does on health, but what the Tories want is the opportunity for private companies to profit from it. They see the percentage of GDP spent on health in the US (way higher than everywhere else) as an economic good and don't give a shit that its not a social good at all, and have steered the narrative towards NHS being structurally inefficient, when in reality it isn't really for the scope of its role. The US system is vastly more inefficient if you look at it on the basis of improved health for the largest number of people, and all the free market has done is turn everyone into prescription drug addicts.

 

[Job]

Good comparison chart here

Health system - Wikipedia

 

[Gwadien]

Good comparison chart here

Health system - Wikipedia

How is the quality of a health care system linked to the life expectancy?

 

[Raven]

um...

 

[Bodhi]

On banks.

We get lumps back every now and again when we sell shares. It had to be done otherwise we would have gone down a hole to a really dark place.

Oh, and don't forget, it WAS Labour that gave those banks the money....

It was also Labour that loosened that last bit of City regulation that lead to the crisis, all because Winky was addicted to all the lovely tax coming from the City of London.

In fact it's strange how many of the most vocal critics of bailing the banks out were some of the bank's biggest backers when they were getting carried away.

Alex Salmond backed RBS’s ABN disaster

Anyway, on the current election, I've found more Labour policies I profoundly disagree with - raising tax on private education and healthcare. I get the whole "those who can pay more should" thing, but if someone is paying for Private Healthcare and Education, the lack of tax breaks for them means that they are effectively paying for state services they aren't using - surely this sort of thing should be encouraged so HMRC can get money for nothing (and some chicks for free)? And what's more, if it was discouraged to the point where no one went private any more, could the public systems cope?

 

[old.user4556]

It was also Labour that loosened that last bit of City regulation that lead to the crisis, all because Winky was addicted to all the lovely tax coming from the City of London.

In fact it's strange how many of the most vocal critics of bailing the banks out were some of the bank's biggest backers when they were getting carried away.

Alex Salmond backed RBS’s ABN disaster

Anyway, on the current election, I've found more Labour policies I profoundly disagree with - raising tax on private education and healthcare. I get the whole "those who can pay more should" thing, but if someone is paying for Private Healthcare and Education, the lack of tax breaks for them means that they are effectively paying for state services they aren't using - surely this sort of thing should be encouraged so HMRC can get money for nothing (and some chicks for free)? And what's more, if it was discouraged to the point where no one went private any more, could the public systems cope?

Everyone wanted a piece of the good times, including politicians and the general masses.

Tell me more about how the sub-prime mortgage meltdown in the US had to do with Labour and Alex Salmond?

 

[Scouse]

And how it wasn't the direct result of years of buildup because of the economic policies that Thatcher and Regan enacted.

 

[Job]

Labour big government
Tory small government

Simple really take your pic

 

[Bodhi]

Everyone wanted a piece of the good times, including politicians and the general masses.

Tell me more about how the sub-prime mortgage meltdown in the US had to do with Labour and Alex Salmond?

I never said it did have anything to do with Salmond? Just that he was applauding RBS' greed like a demented seal when it happened, despite a few at the time wondering what the hell RBS were doing. Didn't stop him using it for political capital later on, mind.

 

[old.user4556]

I never said it did have anything to do with Salmond? Just that he was applauding RBS' greed like a demented seal when it happened, despite a few at the time wondering what the hell RBS were doing. Didn't stop him using it for political capital later on, mind.

Why single out Salmond and Labour is my point, they were all in on it. You sure it's not because you don't like Labour and Salmond?

 

[Raven]

And how it wasn't the direct result of years of buildup because of the economic policies that Thatcher and Regan enacted.

Strange, could have sworn it was the Chancellor in 1997 that started a massive campaign of deregulation. Now, I can't for the life of me remember who that was and what party he belonged to.

Oh yeah, I remember now, Mr Gordon Brown.

Blaming Thatcher is like blaming Henry Ford for high road deaths.

 

[Scouse]

Honestly, I don't give a fuck about Labour so I've not an axe to grind about that. But the wholesale economic reforms - the formalisation and institutionalisation of neoliberal laissez-faire capitalism - is the bedrock of our current problems.

Thatcher herself said her biggest regret was that the rich don't give away their money in massive philanthropic action. And considering trickledown is a lynchpin of that economic system then the house of cards falls down.

She was dumb as fuck to think that's how the world would work. People who defend it now, despite all that has happened, are even dumber. The ones who fail to understand the links from her reforms to the world of today, just 30 years later, aren't just dumb...



Edit:
There's enough cash out there to solve the worlds problems. Capitalism is great at that. Unfortunatley, it is, obviously, being hoarded and therefore useless as a tool for societal reform. And therefore may as well not exist.

 

[old.user4556]

I can't stand Labour for one second, but to suggest that the banking crisis was their fault it just fucking incorrect on a number of levels.

 

[Scouse]

I can't stand Labour for one second, but to suggest that the banking crisis was their fault it just fucking incorrect on a number of levels.

Agree. It's a structural issue is all.

Funny tho - blaming Labour under Blair and Brown is just like blaming the tories anyway. Same shit, different colour.

 

[Raven]

I can't stand Labour for one second, but to suggest that the banking crisis was their fault it just fucking incorrect on a number of levels.

So, you are saying it wasn't Labour that decided to remove themselves from direct control of the BOE and also stop the BOE from regulating other institutions, in 1997? It was the deregulation pushed by Blair and Brown that directly caused the likes of HBOS and Northern Rock to run wild.

They are not to blame for the global collapse but they are certainly to blame for many of the UK problems. They are the ones that wanted the UK to have some of the (out of control, as it turns out) action.

 

[Raven]

You also have this guy to thank Jim Murphy - Wikipedia for compounding the problem with the 2006 reform act, which did sweet nothing to stop the madness.

 

[old.user4556]

They are not to blame for the global collapse

Which is what I said.

Regardless of who was in power, excessive lending across the globe tied to the unsustainable growth of the housing markets was to blame.

 

[Bodhi]

I can't stand Labour for one second, but to suggest that the banking crisis was their fault it just fucking incorrect on a number of levels.

Not entirely their fault (Mr Clinton had a large hand in it as well, mind you he had a large hand in a few things. Women mostly) , but Gordon can take a large portion of the blame. That was just one of the many things he got very wrong whilst Labour were in power the last time - and he's quite moderate compared to the Trotskyists in place now. I'd wager if he hadn't got carried away with the credit card when times were good, hadn't announced to the world he was selling our gold reserves just before doing it (and wondering why the price went down), and hadn't signed half the public sector up to ridiculously expensive (and off the balance sheet) PFI programs, we wouldn't be in half the shit we are now.

 

[old.user4556]

we wouldn't be in half the shit we are now.

What shit would that be? Last time I checked, Lloyds paid it back and it was only RBS that's still a big bag of shite.