FAO custodia @ Avalon

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Golly

Fledgling Freddie
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Seeing that Greeks are mentioned I feel the need to contribute to this. However unlike the rest of the posters I admit I have nothing useful to say :(


after reading 20 pages of absolute babble that really truly amused me

good stuff gear keep up the odd comments :cheers:
 

aika

Can't get enough of FH
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Dorimor, so Light Eldritches only nuke in 50 rvr? :)
I really hope you're not serious on this

oh and here's some info for you to read Dorimor!

Schizophrenia, from the Greek roots schizein (σχίζειν, "to split") and phrēn, phren- (φρήν, φρεν-, "mind"), is a psychiatric diagnosis that describes a mental illness characterized by impairments in the perception or expression of reality, most commonly manifesting as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions or disorganized speech and thinking in the context of significant social or occupational dysfunction. Onset of symptoms typically occurs in young adulthood.
 
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f4wzi

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I see that no one has been able to counteract my arguements so far - I will assume I have won. The King of Thid is victorious again.

aika said:
Dorimor, so Light Eldritches only nuke in 50 rvr?

I got to RR10 on an Enchanter my just pressing the nuke button. I got bored after RR10 because 50 RvR was no challenge compared to Thid.
 
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Dorimor, the less options you got the less challenge it is. Thid got less options = less challenge. Battle grounds exist as a training ground for newbies to pracctice and learn their classes in a envirmoent where they have limited access to skills, armor, procs, charges etc.

I'm sure it is fun as hell to pwn newbies day in and day out, like you seem to have been doing. But it is not compareable with real rvr simply b/c it is dumbed down and easy.

Less skills and less variables to consider = less skill thats just the way it is. You may not agree with this but thats you perogative obviously.

On a side note it is kinda ZZz to read the same old arguments comming from you about the thid business, I mean you just say the same thing over and then log on some alt FH account to "agree" with yourself, lulz.. it is well obvious mate.
 

kirennia

Part of the furniture
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I see that no one has been able to counteract my arguements so far - I will assume I have won. The King of Thid is victorious again.

You don't win anything until you bring out the vid of all these people you said you'd killed in this thread...or post screenshots or anything to show that you really did kill these people who say they've never been in thidranki. People are a lot more likely to beleive a few people then one flamebaiter.

And yes, people have counteracted your arguments all the way through this thread; it's not their fault if you're too stupid to avoid selective reading.
 

Arethir

Fledgling Freddie
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Kir, you must understand, he's only trying to save them the embarassment! True story!
 
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f4wzi

Guest
Dorimor, the less options you got the less challenge it is. Thid got less options = less challenge. Battle grounds exist as a training ground for newbies to pracctice and learn their classes in a envirmoent where they have limited access to skills, armor, procs, charges etc.

I will have to disagree with you there. Because people in 50 RvR have more options they are less likely to use them because the average player has no need for these abilities, or options as you put it. They are must likely to ignore them because they can only be used in 5% of circumstances and because of this they categorise all their other abilities that they deem not useful atleast 90% of the time and stop using them. In Thidranki, because people take longer to get killed, you have to use all the abilites your class involves rather than just giving every other ability the cold-finger and mashing nuke like in 50 RvR. Because Thidranki is a more tactical place you cannot survive if you only use one button. Thidranki does not have limited access to armour, procs and charges and this is what makes it harder. Because there is no 'god like' template and because the difference between templated and un-templated, buff and un-buffed is smaller you need to rely on skill more rather than rely on buffs to bail you out of any situation. For example, I achieved 25k kills in Thidranki and I have no buffbot. It was because of my prestigous and unrivalled skill that I managed to get so many kills. I would not survive in 50 RvR without a buffbot, not because the players are too good but merely because I do not have the sufficient stats to compete with people who heavily rely on buffs to kill me.

I'm sure it is fun as hell to pwn newbies day in and day out, like you seem to have been doing. But it is not compareable with real rvr simply b/c it is dumbed down and easy.

Again, I disagree with you there. Thidranki is by no means all about 'pwning' newbies. People have realised that Thidranki takes considerable more skill than 50 RvR and many of the good and skillful players have come in order to find a challenge. Since when has things being 'dumbed down' and more simple easier? You merely have less options and therefore need to rely on your skill, experience, situation positioning and reactionary casting/tanking. You play Thidranki for a week and we'll see how well you do. Infact, I remember in Prydwen killing your Shadowblade many times, considering you have done well with him in 50 RvR and couldn't cope with Thidranki, what does that say for your arguement? It says your arguement is a pile of dog shite.

Less skills and less variables to consider = less skill thats just the way it is. You may not agree with this but thats you perogative obviously.

Yes, it is my perogative and it should be your perogative to believe what I say, because what I say is right and what you say is wrong. Often, having more options means you are likely to use less of them. However, if you are stuck with 5 spells only (this is not the average for a Thidranki character but for the sake of the arguement we will use this value) you are more likely to use all of the spells because that is all you have to rely on. It's a bit like taking abilities for granted because one uses them so often.

On a side note it is kinda ZZz to read the same old arguments comming from you about the thid business, I mean you just say the same thing over and then log on some alt FH account to "agree" with yourself, lulz.. it is well obvious mate.

It may be the 'same old arguement' to you but if people I have owned in Thidranki have come on this forum to whine at me through sheer bitterness, that is not my problem but theirs xD.

kirennia said:
You don't win anything until you bring out the vid of all these people you said you'd killed in this thread...or post screenshots or anything to show that you really did kill these people who say they've never been in thidranki. People are a lot more likely to beleive a few people then one flamebaiter.

I am working on 'fraps' to try and bring out this movie. What I would like to know is why you are taking such a defensive attitude towards this? Is it because, just by chance, that I owned your Heretic in Thidranki when my BD was only level 23? I remember we were near CK and you attacked me with your Infiltrator friend, I owned you of course and then you /rofled me just before you died. I would say someone is bitter.

kirennia said:
And yes, people have counteracted your arguments all the way through this thread; it's not their fault if you're too stupid to avoid selective reading.

Nope, give me one example of a thread that is as long and constructive as this one and many others I have posted this thread. I have constantly shown superior intelligence to yourself who seem only capable of stringing a few sentences together, my pet pidgeon is more intelligent then you, fucktard.

Arethir said:
Kir, you must understand, he's only trying to save them the embarassment! True story!

Lol, why do you whine so much at me? Is it because I have owned you countless times. I mean you have as much skill as a monkey with down syndrome. I won't even bother arguing with you because you have the integrity of a rapist and the personality of a brick.
 

Raven

Fuck the Tories!
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Doriboor is getting rather stressed out about it :D
 

liloe

It's my birthday today!
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I am amazed how people still bother answering his pseudo-arguments, seeing that all Dorimoor does is killing time until his **th account gets banned again.
 

Raven

Fuck the Tories!
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because generally he is rather amusing, in a one flew over the cuckoos nest kind of way :p
 

kirennia

Part of the furniture
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I am working on 'fraps' to try and bring out this movie. What I would like to know is why you are taking such a defensive attitude towards this? Is it because, just by chance, that I owned your Heretic in Thidranki when my BD was only level 23? I remember we were near CK and you attacked me with your Infiltrator friend, I owned you of course and then you /rofled me just before you died. I would say someone is bitter.

I can't recall anything about thidranki on my heretic. In fact, I can't remember /rofling an enemy before except if they tried to zerg me and I killed them. I don't even know what characters you played.

The only times I remember going in thidranki were with my earth wizard a long long time ago and my scout maybe once or twice; which never broke level 22 anyway. Please really do enlighten me about the matter by bringing out some fraps footage. It still makes no difference in the 'argument' if there even is one about which is more difficult. If you went into level 50 rvr and only used 5 abilities on various different classes, you'd get mowed down.

Okay so a chanter is a simple class, as is a BD, warlock etc but try only using a few abilities on a healer, cleric, heretic, friar as an example and you'll get destroyed. I used each ability on my classes, none were shunned because it'd be easier to do it another way... if you take the easy route in 8vs8, you die. Simple as that. If you stand there nuking and leeching in thidranki, you'll still kill most of the enemies as they're mostly in rog templates which have been picked up from random mobs while levelling.

Nope, give me one example of a thread that is as long and constructive as this one and many others I have posted this thread. I have constantly shown superior intelligence to yourself who seem only capable of stringing a few sentences together, my pet pidgeon is more intelligent then you, fucktard.

I don't need to post long threads (although if you look back you surely will stuble across plenty of them); a long post doesn't make an intelligent one. If I babbled on for page upon page about why burberry was such an innovative fashion technique in modern culture, I'd still be stupid. If you want the 'constructive' argument as you seem to be mislabelling your own work as, go back to my first post in this thread a few pages ago.

All I have to do is look at the fact that you're still posting on a forum which you've been banned from after throwing your toys out of the pram; that shows me the limit of your intellect.
 
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f4wzi

Guest
I can't recall anything about thidranki on my heretic. In fact, I can't remember /rofling an enemy before except if they tried to zerg me and I killed them. I don't even know what characters you played.

Then you must be lying. I distinctively remember that you had a Heretic in Thidranki. Maybe you should try looking in your own signature to find out that you do indeed have a Heretic that was most likely leveled in Thidranki. I remember him clearly and I only ask you to consult my previous story about how I killed you because I can't be bothered to explain to slow-minded people what I have already explained one hundred times.

kirennia said:
The only times I remember going in thidranki were with my earth wizard a long long time ago and my scout maybe once or twice; which never broke level 22 anyway.

Now that you do mention that I also remember owning your Earth Theurgist and Scout in Thidranki. All your Scout ever did was leach, which was a bit pathetic. The reason why you never broke level 22 was because I owned and chained you all day. I know this because you infact made a whine thread about it in the BG section which I can send you a link of (however it has long since been deleted).

kirennia said:
Please really do enlighten me about the matter by bringing out some fraps footage. It still makes no difference in the 'argument' if there even is one about which is more difficult. If you went into level 50 rvr and only used 5 abilities on various different classes, you'd get mowed down.

Because some people's motives for arguing with me is because they want to see my fraps footage of me killing thim. I have them but I plan to put them in a movie - because I have so many fraps of killing so many people (5400 kills 2200 deathblows on my Bonedancer in Thidranki) it is quite hard to find a specific one. I could probably find one of you in it though.

Regarding the 50 RvR arguement, I have said it so many times but I will say it again because you seem not to be able to get the picture. I played in 50 RvR an Enchanter and got to RR10 by just using Pbaoe, Stun and Nuke. Unless you can't count, that's 3 abilities. I have tenfold the amount of experience you have in RvR so please don't bullshit me with those comments. It's more than easy to survive in RvR with just 5 abilities. Because you are loosing the arguement you are coming up with lies like this, which although I find hilarious and innacurate, it gets kind of boring and if you make a fool out of yourself for any longer I may ever start feeling sorry for you xD.

kirennia said:
Okay so a chanter is a simple class, as is a BD, warlock etc but try only using a few abilities on a healer, cleric, heretic, friar as an example and you'll get destroyed.

I think you are wrong. A friend of mine lent me his Cleric a while back which I got forom 6L4 to 7L5 and I only used Group Heal/Greater Single Heal/Spread Heal/Curse Poison/Cure Disease. We managed to own the Maelstrom zerg and killed Eclipse quite a few times so I think that my methods were effective. The problem with people like you and Septina is that you believe you have to use 15+ abilities to win a fight. This is why players like you and Septina never cut it in RvR and were never considered good. You overdoo it and becase you use different abilities to flex your e-peen you are hindering yourself because you are performing useless spells and in the wrong situation. It is better to use 5 abilities really well and skillfully then use 15 abilities at the wrong situation. If you and Septina had a bit more RvR experience you'd realise this. Alas, people with an ego like yourself are unable to realise the basics which would otherwise take them to the top.

Regarding Warlock being a simple class, this just shows how clueless you are. You are getting mixed up between how powerful a class is and the skill in which it takes to play it effectively. Yes, pre-nerf Warlock was a stupidly powerful class, however it took considerable skill to play. Firstly, you need to be on your guard ALL the time because you have to cast Secondary Spells after each primary spell. You also need to know which Secondary Spells to use after each nuke. You need to know what primers to use (uninteruptable/ranged/powerless) and again use an appropriate Secondary Spell. On the subject of chambers, just because they are instant how does that take more skill then casting a 2 second spell? They are both one button. However, you need to know what chamber to use and WHEN to use it. A Warlock is a powerful class but by no-means for one-buttoners.

kirennia said:
I used each ability on my classes, none were shunned because it'd be easier to do it another way... if you take the easy route in 8vs8, you die. Simple as that. If you stand there nuking and leeching in thidranki, you'll still kill most of the enemies as they're mostly in rog templates which have been picked up from random mobs while levelling.

This is why your Heretic was so easy to kill in Thidranki and 50 RvR. You used too many abilities and although it is nice to flourish your arsenal on your class it is really unecessary if you use more than you need. I've had a quick look at Heretic and you only really need to use 4 spells (not including the styles) in order to play effectively. You will also find you are wrong with the statement regarding Thidranki. Generally, the standard in Thidranki is higher than that of 50 RvR and therefore, unlike 50 RvR, people are more intelligent and run off. Also, for what makes up in lack of decent armour is the fact that the Spell Damage:Hit Points ratio in Thidranki is considerably less than in 50 RvR. Although people have worse amour, Spell Damage is still pretty low at that level. If your enemy has decent armour/resists then it makes it even harder for a caster to do well in Thidranki, thus relying on skill.

kirennia said:
I don't need to post long threads (although if you look back you surely will stuble across plenty of them); a long post doesn't make an intelligent one. If I babbled on for page upon page about why burberry was such an innovative fashion technique in modern culture, I'd still be stupid. If you want the 'constructive' argument as you seem to be mislabelling your own work as, go back to my first post in this thread a few pages ago.

A long post shows you have considerable knowledge and can develop your own arguement whilst effectively evaluating another. You have seen people's posts at me. I mean, what are Raven's posts? "Dorimor is getting angry" or some drivle like that. I am not angry, and he knows this. However, because he cannot muster up a constructive arguement to counter mine (he has not the intelligence nor the wit to do it) he resorts to insults because he feels inferior to me, and wants to become superior. I admit that Raven's attempts are really awful xD. I agree with your statement when you say "you'd still be stupid", because you cannot cope with constructive arguement, effective grammar and adequate spelling you will never be considered clever by those of us whom have high IQ and superior knowledge. I would rather not search FH for a thread in which you demonstrate your 'constructive' arguement because my standards are much higher than yours I am afraid xD.

kirennia said:
All I have to do is look at the fact that you're still posting on a forum which you've been banned from after throwing your toys out of the pram; that shows me the limit of your intellect.

Please show me a post where I 'throw my toys out of the pram'? I come on here to show people that I am the Thidranki King. Everything I post is constructive yet everything aimed at is just terrible insults. Although I do post for the comedy-factor, I will ask you this question. Why do you complain about me coming back on this forum over and over again when people like you seem to want to argue with me everytime I come back? I mean, if you think I am pathetic how about you stop taking the bait for the 1000th time, to be honest, that shows me the limit of your intellect and let me assure you the limit is not very high. I bet you havn't even read this post because you know you are unable to proove me wrong.

liloe said:
I am amazed how people still bother answering his pseudo-arguments, seeing that all Dorimoor does is killing time until his **th account gets banned again.

Yes, and as I see again it is another person whom I have owned in Thidranki. How about you keep out of an arguement and let people have a conversation? I know you are not clever enough to join in and therefore resort to another comment about how many times I get banned. I mean, seriously, don't you think people have said that kind of stuff before? We don't need another statement like that from another person like you.

Thanks for the replies people, they really made me laugh =).
 

Gear

Can't get enough of FH
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Lock the fucken door and throw away the key ffs!!!!
 

Stallion

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f4wzi, Im sorry but I forgot how much you are in the lead with, was it 144-0 or 134-0 in your advantage? I kind of have missplaced the number in my head how many times you owned me in thid, wanna help me out?
 

kirennia

Part of the furniture
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Dec 26, 2003
Messages
3,857
Then you must be lying. I distinctively remember that you had a Heretic in Thidranki. Maybe you should try looking in your own signature to find out that you do indeed have a Heretic that was most likely leveled in Thidranki. I remember him clearly and I only ask you to consult my previous story about how I killed you because I can't be bothered to explain to slow-minded people what I have already explained one hundred times.

Surprisingly I do know I had a heretic; hell it'd be pretty difficult to play for that long on one and not know you had it! I'm not lying, I simply do not recall my levelling as a heretic. I'll be more then willing to agree with you if you can provide some proof as I know full well a heretic is plain awful at low levels as I found out the hard way levelling it to 50 on my own/in small groups. I just can't recall playing it in thidranki.


Now that you do mention that I also remember owning your Earth Theurgist and Scout in Thidranki. All your Scout ever did was leach, which was a bit pathetic. The reason why you never broke level 22 was because I owned and chained you all day. I know this because you infact made a whine thread about it in the BG section which I can send you a link of (however it has long since been deleted).

Okay so you took the bait. I never played an earth theurgist, nor an earth wizard in thidranki. I know as I powerlevelled it with a necro and buffbot to 50. As for my scout, that was way way before BDs ever came into the game, I took one drunkard run at a keep take and then used it to farm 'oldest' for remains to put in my house...it seemed like a good idea at the time ;)

This to me just further proves the point that you're making it all up, not only about me but everyone else. You're just saying 'lol, I owned you' about characters who haven't even been in thidranki.

As for whine threads, please point me to a single one I've made. I post in the off topic and reply to topics in rvr forum and that is all I do here for amusement.

Because some people's motives for arguing with me is because they want to see my fraps footage of me killing thim. I have them but I plan to put them in a movie - because I have so many fraps of killing so many people (5400 kills 2200 deathblows on my Bonedancer in Thidranki) it is quite hard to find a specific one. I could probably find one of you in it though.

I'll genuinely look forward to it.


Regarding the 50 RvR arguement, I have said it so many times but I will say it again because you seem not to be able to get the picture. I played in 50 RvR an Enchanter and got to RR10 by just using Pbaoe, Stun and Nuke. Unless you can't count, that's 3 abilities. I have tenfold the amount of experience you have in RvR so please don't bullshit me with those comments. It's more than easy to survive in RvR with just 5 abilities. Because you are loosing the arguement you are coming up with lies like this, which although I find hilarious and innacurate, it gets kind of boring and if you make a fool out of yourself for any longer I may ever start feeling sorry for you xD.

10fold the amount of experience? Okay, I'll take your word for it :rolleyes: I'll still say that in an 8vs8 fight, especially some of the greater ones we had both on this cluster and the other clusters I've played on, you simply cannot use 5 abilities on a heretic and win. 7minute fights and only use them? If I only had one hand I'd still use more abilities then that. Example :

RA's : fan, baod, purge, DI, moc, PR, MCL
spells : DD, ae snare/DD, insta snare, insta dot, res, heals
styles : rear levi, side indigo, python debuff, rear slam,

Go solo and you can add a 4part viper chain and 3part kingsnake chains.

You try doing just 5 of those, your group will die against mediocre opponents. I'm not talking about pure breed casters or BDs or so, yes they're easier to play, that's a given.

I think you are wrong. A friend of mine lent me his Cleric a while back which I got forom 6L4 to 7L5 and I only used Group Heal/Greater Single Heal/Spread Heal/Curse Poison/Cure Disease. We managed to own the Maelstrom zerg and killed Eclipse quite a few times so I think that my methods were effective. The problem with people like you and Septina is that you believe you have to use 15+ abilities to win a fight. This is why players like you and Septina never cut it in RvR and were never considered good. You overdoo it and becase you use different abilities to flex your e-peen you are hindering yourself because you are performing useless spells and in the wrong situation. It is better to use 5 abilities really well and skillfully then use 15 abilities at the wrong situation. If you and Septina had a bit more RvR experience you'd realise this. Alas, people with an ego like yourself are unable to realise the basics which would otherwise take them to the top.

Go against a zerg and any muppet can get rps. I mean really, you can afk during fights and get rps. If you measure ability by the amount of rps someone has or even their total kills, horner is the most skillful person on the cluster... I enjoyed FG fighting, especially from knowing that in straight up 8vs8 fights which we very often did, anyone makes a false move and it's game over in certain situations. TT know this from my ae DDs on mezz boxes before ^^

I have no large ego; I stated earlier I know I'm not the best player, I just know for the most part what to do in rvr with my character and KNOW that anyone playing a heretic (again, as an example) and only using 5 abilities will die more often then they'll win.

I'm not the one going around stating I'm one of the best players in the game. I know I'm not, you on the other hand have some sort of false in-game superiority complex. Talk to any counsellor about it and they'll tell you a superiority complex routes from inferiority issues earlier on in life...I'm not the one with any problem.

Regarding Warlock being a simple class, this just shows how clueless you are. You are getting mixed up between how powerful a class is and the skill in which it takes to play it effectively. Yes, pre-nerf Warlock was a stupidly powerful class, however it took considerable skill to play. Firstly, you need to be on your guard ALL the time because you have to cast Secondary Spells after each primary spell. You also need to know which Secondary Spells to use after each nuke. You need to know what primers to use (uninteruptable/ranged/powerless) and again use an appropriate Secondary Spell. On the subject of chambers, just because they are instant how does that take more skill then casting a 2 second spell? They are both one button. However, you need to know what chamber to use and WHEN to use it. A Warlock is a powerful class but by no-means for one-buttoners.

No it's not a 1 button class. You load up chambers, go out and fire chambers while nuking as well...you'd have to be bloody stupid to not know what chamber to use in most situations. Again, it's a zerg class so most high power casters will do anyway. In solo, it's all about the random number generator.

This is why your Heretic was so easy to kill in Thidranki and 50 RvR. You used too many abilities and although it is nice to flourish your arsenal on your class it is really unecessary if you use more than you need. I've had a quick look at Heretic and you only really need to use 4 spells (not including the styles) in order to play effectively. You will also find you are wrong with the statement regarding Thidranki. Generally, the standard in Thidranki is higher than that of 50 RvR and therefore, unlike 50 RvR, people are more intelligent and run off. Also, for what makes up in lack of decent armour is the fact that the Spell Damage:Hit Points ratio in Thidranki is considerably less than in 50 RvR. Although people have worse amour, Spell Damage is still pretty low at that level. If your enemy has decent armour/resists then it makes it even harder for a caster to do well in Thidranki, thus relying on skill.

You never played against my heretic in rvr, your opinion means nothing. And BGs aren't any baring if it's even true what you say about beating me.

A long post shows you have considerable knowledge and can develop your own arguement whilst effectively evaluating another. You have seen people's posts at me. I mean, what are Raven's posts? "Dorimor is getting angry" or some drivle like that. I am not angry, and he knows this. However, because he cannot muster up a constructive arguement to counter mine (he has not the intelligence nor the wit to do it) he resorts to insults because he feels inferior to me, and wants to become superior. I admit that Raven's attempts are really awful xD. I agree with your statement when you say "you'd still be stupid", because you cannot cope with constructive arguement, effective grammar and adequate spelling you will never be considered clever by those of us whom have high IQ and superior knowledge. I would rather not search FH for a thread in which you demonstrate your 'constructive' arguement because my standards are much higher than yours I am afraid xD.

No, a long post shows you have a lot of free time, hence my answers are growing shorter and shorter for each quote. I have plenty of experience with debates and I have no worries about my IQ, I just choose not to argue about someones intelligence when I in fact know nothing about them and have never met them, apart from the crap which they post on a board. I don't want to get into an argument about that for precisely that reason; I'm doing a computing degree and am currently averaging a high 1st so who really cares if you're 'more intelligent', I'm happy with my life and the way it's going, end of.

Please show me a post where I 'throw my toys out of the pram'? I come on here to show people that I am the Thidranki King. Everything I post is constructive yet everything aimed at is just terrible insults. Although I do post for the comedy-factor, I will ask you this question. Why do you complain about me coming back on this forum over and over again when people like you seem to want to argue with me everytime I come back? I mean, if you think I am pathetic how about you stop taking the bait for the 1000th time, to be honest, that shows me the limit of your intellect and let me assure you the limit is not very high. I bet you havn't even read this post because you know you are unable to proove me wrong.

I can't be bothered to trawl through any of the shit you have previously posted. You must have one hell of a short memory span to not remember your random slagging matches as dorimor earlier on.

As for taking the bait, this is giving me another excuse to avoid an AI assignment for the time being. I'm 'taking bait' in the same way you're 'taking bait'. We are afterall, replying to each other. :D
 

Dard

Part of the furniture
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Should all take our training daggers to the proving grounds, see who really is the King of Daoc. :ninja:
 

aika

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Dorimor i remember killing your bd on my skald in november 2003, it was near ck, you tried to root me and i interupted you with insta snare, insta mezzed commander and rox'ed you, then you started pming me and crying irl!


-thats about how much your posts are constructive: spouting random lies, making up stories and beeing totally clueless about lvl50 RvR or even thid rvr
 
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