Politics Election 2019

[Gwadien]

The ref was clear. Do you want to be in or out.
No one was asked on the details. Those were to be handled once the direction was set.

But instead of the mps arguing about which method of exit we should be doing they are still trying to reverse the result. We might have left by now if they had accepted that stay was out of the way.

The Ref wasn't clear, otherwise we wouldn't be in this shit show.

 

[DaGaffer]

The ref was clear. Do you want to be in or out.
No one was asked on the details. Those were to be handled once the direction was set.

But instead of the mps arguing about which method of exit we should be doing they are still trying to reverse the result. We might have left by now if they had accepted that stay was out of the way.

Oh FFS.

This was leave.eu's policy doc at the start of 2016; a twenty year disengagement plan with a Norway deal at its heart.

When he supported Norway: The Brexit policy Farage would rather forget

This was Arron Banks tweeting about Norway in 2015


View: https://twitter.com/arron_banks/status/682125949245206528?lang=en


Fuck off with your "do you want to be in or out" bullshit; that's a question with a bunch of answers as the leave campaign itself ably demonstrated.

Its amazing how the internet means you can't hide from your own bullshit; teenagers on Instragram and Leave campaigners take note.

 

[Wij]

The ref was clear. Do you want to be in or out.
No one was asked on the details. Those were to be handled once the direction was set.

But instead of the mps arguing about which method of exit we should be doing they are still trying to reverse the result. We might have left by now if they had accepted that stay was out of the way.

Do you seriously believe that if Johnson’s deal had been on the table in 2016 instead of a bunch of lovely promises it would have got 52% of the vote?

Leaving the single market and the tremendous advantage it gives us in trade.

Export paperwork between NI and GB because they’ll have different rules.

NI having to follow EU rules with no vote on them.

Seriously still 52%?

 

[Gwadien]

North Korea democratically elects its leaders.

Germany legally annexed Austria through a referendum.

Putin wins in Russia every election with little opposition.

 

[DaGaffer]

Here we go @Embattle, are you disagreeing with the content of my post, or the sentiment?

 

[Job]

Nige is going for the long game.

He'll be back with a big list of reasons its not a real brexit...which it quite clearly isnt...you dont throw away a vote base like the Brexit party has.

 

[Moriath]

Do you seriously believe that if Johnson’s deal had been on the table in 2016 instead of a bunch of lovely promises it would have got 52% of the vote?

Leaving the single market and the tremendous advantage it gives us in trade.

Export paperwork between NI and GB because they’ll have different rules.

NI having to follow EU rules with no vote on them.

Seriously still 52%?

Thats not what i said. I said the government gave in or out. Thats it. The population decided out narrowly. So to stay should be off the books. Only thing they have to decide is which out. There have been many types of out put to the vote not just may and boris versions. Non got a majority.

 

[Moriath]

Oh FFS.

This was leave.eu's policy doc at the start of 2016; a twenty year disengagement plan with a Norway deal at its heart.

When he supported Norway: The Brexit policy Farage would rather forget

This was Arron Banks tweeting about Norway in 2015


View: https://twitter.com/arron_banks/status/682125949245206528?lang=en


Fuck off with your "do you want to be in or out" bullshit; that's a question with a bunch of answers as the leave campaign itself ably demonstrated.

Its amazing how the internet means you can't hide from your own bullshit; teenagers on Instragram and Leave campaigners take note.

In or out was the question. How, we have our trusted mp representatives to decide the best way.

if half the mp’s hadnt been trying to vote to stay in some of the parliament raised solutions may have gotten enough votes to pass. Even those who were raise by the mp’s not chosen by may or boris couldnt get enough support.

cause half of them want to sabotage leaving so vote anyway to stop that.

 

[dysfunction]

Thats not what i said. I said the government gave in or out. Thats it. The population decided out narrowly. So to stay should be off the books. Only thing they have to decide is which out.

I disagree. The way the whole initial campaign was handled and the entire debacle afterwards I reckon we need another referendum for a final decision.
Things have changed a lot in the last 3 years.

 

[Moriath]

North Korea democratically elects its leaders.

Germany legally annexed Austria through a referendum.

Putin wins in Russia every election with little opposition.

And? Democracy can be manipulated. Nothing is perfect. But anything is better than 600 people who cant get together and make up their minds what to do.

 

[Moriath]

I disagree. The way the whole initial campaign was handled and the entire debacle afterwards I reckon we need another referendum for a final decision.
Things have changed a lot in the last 3 years.

And you are totally allowed to have that opinion . I hope which ever way it goes on 12th Dec one view has a majority. And then gets whatever it is done.

Dont really care what it is now.

 

[dysfunction]

I have a feeling there will be a similar mix in parliament so we won't have a clear majority.

 

[Gwadien]

And? Democracy can be manipulated. Nothing is perfect. But anything is better than 600 people who cant get together and make up their minds what to do.

They can make their minds up, and it's pretty clear that they have.

Lots of them are sitting there thinking hmm, this Prime Minister and many of his cabinet called the prospect of a No Deal 'Project Fear' and that it was the experts trying to scare people from voting for Brexit.

Then it's pretty blatantly clear that Boris has gone into this wanting a no deal which will undeniably have a short term negative effect for the country; isn't that what MPs do? Vote for the best interests of the nation.

 

[Wij]

Thats not what i said. I said the government gave in or out. Thats it. The population decided out narrowly. So to stay should be off the books. Only thing they have to decide is which out. There have been many types of out put to the vote not just may and boris versions. Non got a majority.

So what you are saying then is that whatever option is selected will be favoured by less than 48% of the population but we should definitely choose an option less popular than remain because democracy?

 

[Scouse]

Latest number crunchers putting it at healthy Tory majority so we'll finally get rid of Corbyn at the expense of the country getting totally fucked.

Lib Dem's choice then.

Pitch in with Labour - who have promised to offer another referendum on different terms - or hand it to the tories.

 

[DaGaffer]

In or out was the question. How, we have our trusted mp representatives to decide the best way.

if half the mp’s hadnt been trying to vote to stay in some of the parliament raised solutions may have gotten enough votes to pass. Even those who were raise by the mp’s not chosen by may or boris couldnt get enough support.

cause half of them want to sabotage leaving so vote anyway to stop that.

In or out can't be answered because its a question phrased as binary but isn't (which is a classic example of terrible referendum design).

As for your second comment its simply disingenuous to claim MPs are trying to scupper Brexit altogether; they can only vote on the solutions put in front of them and both solutions presented to Parliament so far have been hot garbage. And why are they garbage? Because the "red lines" introduced by May were not even discussed prior to the referendum. If the architects of Brexit, the people actually running the campaign, are saying "oh it will be something like EFTA", (which is a perfectly valid definition of "out") and then immediately after the referendum that all gets thrown out of the window, then not only Parliament, but the general public, have been given misleading information. Just like £350m for the NHS.

 

[Wij]

Lib Dem's choice then.

Pitch in with Labour - who have promised to offer another referendum on different terms - or hand it to the tories.

I’m going to vote tactically for the Labour candidate because my seat is a Labour/Tory marginal where Greens and Lib Dems get single digits.

Would you do the same if your seat was a LibDem/Tory one?

 

[Moriath]

So what you are saying then is that whatever option is selected will be favoured by less than 48% of the population but we should definitely choose an option less popular than remain because democracy?

We as a people are not being asked our opinion on the actual deal. Or no deal or whatever it may be.

so if we like it or not we dont have a direct say. And only via the election are we having an indirect say.

 

[Moriath]

In or out can't be answered because its a question phrased as binary but isn't (which is a classic example of terrible referendum design).

As for your second comment its simply disingenuous to claim MPs are trying to scupper Brexit altogether; they can only vote on the solutions put in front of them and both solutions presented to Parliament so far have been hot garbage. And why are they garbage? Because the "red lines" introduced by May were not even discussed prior to the referendum. If the architects of Brexit, the people actually running the campaign, are saying "oh it will be something like EFTA", (which is a perfectly valid definition of "out") and then immediately after the referendum that all gets thrown out of the window, then not only Parliament, but the general public, have been given misleading information. Just like £350m for the NHS.

But i specifically said there have been votes on solutions not put forward by may and boris with red lines. Where parliament spent a whole day with a series of votes for a lot of different solutions and not one of them got a majority.

 

[Moriath]

But i specifically said there have been votes on solutions not put forward by may and boris with red lines. Where parliament spent a whole day with a series of votes for a lot of different solutions and not one of them got a majority.

Brexit: What alternative plans did MPs vote on? What did MPs vote on? @DaGaffer

 

[dysfunction]

But i specifically said there have been votes on solutions not put forward by may and boris with red lines. Where parliament spent a whole day with a series of votes for a lot of different solutions and not one of them got a majority.

exactly so give the public a say on what they want

 

[Scouse]

exactly so give the public a say on what they want

Vote labour then. They're offering a referendum which includes remain.

But people won't. They'll vote Lib Dem, or Tory. So will have only themselves to blame.

You could say "that's not what a general election is for" - but, frankly, if it's that important then this one is.

 

[dysfunction]

Vote labour then. They're offering a referendum which includes remain.

But people won't. They'll vote Lib Dem, or Tory. So will have only themselves to blame.

You could say "that's not what a general election is for" - but, frankly, if it's that important then this one is.

Unfortunately I think I'm going to have to as the Tories have had this seat for many many many many many years

 

[Scouse]

Unfortunately I think I'm going to have to as the Tories have had this seat for many many many many many years

But when given a vote on "alternative vote" we rejected it.

 

[Gwadien]

I could see a shock Brexit Party win around here tbh

 

[DaGaffer]

Brexit: What alternative plans did MPs vote on? What did MPs vote on? @DaGaffer

None of which were to remain. So your point is moot.

 

[Scouse]

None of which were to remain. So your point is moot.

I don't think so. He's saying we had a vote that said "remain" - and we didn't vote for it - ergo, all other votes should be types of leave.

Either way - we're leaving. Torys gonna win...

 

[DaGaffer]

I don't think so. He's saying we had a vote that said "remain" - and we didn't vote for it - ergo, all other votes should be types of leave.

Either way - we're leaving. Torys gonna win...

...which they were. Go and follow his link. Parliament discussed all kinds of options (although just to be clear this was just a couple of days' Parliamentary time as I recall), but they were all variants of leave. Parliament hasn't been trying to sneak remain back in, that's just not true. And if anything, it reinforces my point; the referendum question looked like a binary in/out question but the answer was never binary.

 

[Moriath]

...which they were. Go and follow his link. Parliament discussed all kinds of options (although just to be clear this was just a couple of days' Parliamentary time as I recall), but they were all variants of leave. Parliament hasn't been trying to sneak remain back in, that's just not true. And if anything, it reinforces my point; the referendum question looked like a binary in/out question but the answer was never binary.

Yes because the different proposals were there but those wanting to stay were not voting for a proposal they thought would work but against everything to force a remain agenda. Otherwise at least one would have been accepted.

 

[DaGaffer]

Yes because the different proposals were there but those wanting to stay were not voting for a proposal they thought would work but against everything to force a remain agenda. Otherwise at least one would have been accepted.

Why would “at least one have been accepted”? You’re making a very sweeping generalisation (that you can’t back up with any evidence) that remainer MPs were simply spoiler voting; it’s equally valid to suggest that opinion on the type of Leave preferred is massively fragmented, because it objectively is. If you did a poll on here right now with every flavour of leave you’d almost certainly see similar fragmentation.