Edward Snowden....what do you think?

[Scouse]

It was never a secret! It's like a mother discovering her kid wanking. It obviously happens and is part of life

I disagree. When people have complained, when "tin-foil hatters" and conspiracy theorists have complained to the media, to the government, to anyone who would listen they've been dismissed as weirdos - including by the government.

These revelations are important because they are *proof* that the government is *lying*.


And if a government lies to it's people, it's time for it to go.

 

[Chilly]

What have they actually lied about? There's been a lot of denying stuff exists (because it's secret, but that's all fine), but what actual lies have there been?

 

[rynnor]

We know governments bribe/extort for domestic commercial gain.
We know governments torture foreign prisons for intel.
We know oil companies do not give one single fuck about ruining large swathes of the world so we can drive around all happy.
We know a thousand of these things.

You are confusing suspicion with knowledge - one requires proof the other doesn't.

Some people know 911 was a CIA plot, or that the moon landings are fake or that JFK was killed by his own secret service - baseless suspicions are worthless in themselves unless you can corroborate them with proof.

 

[TdC]

He has, almost certainly, harmed the US national security because certain people who may not have realised they could be under surveillance may now change their behaviour to be more covert.

the people who have reason to be covert most certainly are covert. everyone else is an idiot playing silly games (although nothing is more unpredictable and dangerous than a motivated amature tbh). a (sad) by-product of the covert game is that one has to take in to account the wisdom of acting on information from sources who consider themselves covert and secure. this is why sometimes villages get bombed, or soldiers have to risk their lives to be seen spotting a military outpost.

The problem, and the scary bit, are the laws themselves and the society that lets them pass.

agree 100% but sadly I don't see a way around it. I was wondering earlier if a country that had 100% candid disclosure of all it's actions and policy would be able to exist. I think it won't

 

[Scouse]

What, really, is there to blow the whistle on?

We know governments bribe/extort for domestic commercial gain.
We know governments torture foreign prisons for intel.
We know oil companies do not give one single fuck about ruining large swathes of the world so we can drive around all happy.
We know a thousand of these things.

No, we suspect. And when we find proof we expect the "system" to prosecute those that have done this.

The problem is that we all implicitly agree with the system by taking part it in.

Lol. What choice do you have other than direct action that's going to land you in jail or worse?

It's either lump it, live in complete poverty, or go to jail (or dead).


Human beings don't take direct action of that sort until they're suffering unbearable oppression. And we can bear a fucking lot.

 

[Dukat]

When you're told to keep murder a secret because it's in your contract, would you?

I mean, that happens all the time in the armed forces

 

[Scouse]

Oh piss off Dukat. They're called "war crimes" - and only a tiny proportion of them get prosecuted.

 

[Dukat]

Oh piss off Dukat. They're called "war crimes" - and only a tiny proportion of them go prosecuted.


Look at it this way - that twat who went on two murder sprees in Afghanistan recently came back to barracks in between the first and second and told people what he'd done.

Did they stop him? Did they report him? No.

Go fuck yourself, Scouse.

You just said that murder is kept secret in the military "all the time". You make it sound very much like the majority of people who don a uniform are guilty of either committing murder or are party to it without reporting it. That just isn't the case and you should know better than to write things that make something so wrong so strongly implied.

I'd like to think I can understand a lot but the unreasonable hostility towards the job is becoming tiresome. Do you honestly think we're told to keep murder secret?

 

[Scouse]

You make it sound very much like the majority of people who don a uniform are guilty of either committing murder or are party to it

Chill Dukat. I've not said that at all.

You've got a stick up your arse about people bashing the military because you used to be in it. But them's the plain facts - and have been through history. Rape, murder, torture. All of the wars ever fought - that shit (and worse) goes on.

A *tiny* amount of it ever comes to light - and often only years after the fact (which means, obviously, that people have been sitting on it).

Why is that, Dukat?

 

[DaGaffer]

What have they actually lied about? There's been a lot of denying stuff exists (because it's secret, but that's all fine), but what actual lies have there been?

Well the main one is that the US government has repeatedly and publicly denied that US citizens are being spied on in this way, and the NSA's charter specifically forbids it. (Let's be clear, this isn't about the NSA spying on us that's causing the furore, its about the NSA spying on its own people).

For all the congressmen saying this guy is a traitor, there's a perfectly valid counter-argument that he had a duty as a citizen to blow the whistle on this because he's actually reporting a crime in progress.

 

[Scouse]

he had a duty as a citizen to blow the whistle on this because he's actually reporting a crime in progress.

This.

 

[Dukat]

Chill Dukat. I've not said that at all.

You've got a stick up your arse about people bashing the military because you used to be in it. But them's the plain facts - and have been through history. Rape, murder, torture. All of the wars ever fought - that shit (and worse) goes on.

A *tiny* amount of it ever comes to light - and often only years after the fact (which means, obviously, that people have been sitting on it). Why is that, Dukat?

Not being a qualified psychiatrist, I can only go on my own experiences and those of the people I work with. Those include being drilled heavily towards the ideas of "Moral Courage" and "Lawful" acts. We are told throughout training that unlawful orders are not to be followed - it is stated that acting on an unlawful order is itself an illegal act. That training is reinforced before leaving the country to go abroad and again after arriving. Do you have any idea how often I've been shown those abuse photos from abu ghraib as part of breifings? How often we're taken through judgemental 'shooting incident' scenarios?

When you said "When you're told to keep murder a secret because it's in your contract, would you? I mean, that happens all the time in the armed forces" You used present tense. You used the words 'murder' and 'all the time'. It didn't very much sound like you were referring to history. If reacting to such an obvious provocation is having a stick up my arse then I don't know what you expected to happen?

 

[Scouse]

reacting to such an obvious provocation

I wasn't "provoking". Really not trying to troll you on this (it's sortof off-topic anyway). I was just stating a fact.

Yes, we know you go through the training as described above and, of course, the (vast) majority of armed services personnel act in accordance with their orders.

However, that doesn't change the fact that murder/torture/worse goes on in all arenas of conflict - and governments cover it up. More whistleblowers are needed.

 

[Dukat]

Yes, we know you go through the training as described above and, of course, the (vast) majority of armed services personnel act in accordance with their orders.

However, that doesn't change the fact that murder/torture/worse goes on in all arenas of conflict - and governments cover it up. More whistleblowers are needed.

If that's what was meant then fair enough. It didn't read that way and perhaps there was a misinterpretation on my part. Some of the more radical opinions expressed towards the end of that last thread seem to point towards strong hostility towards the armed forces and I suppose in the wake of that what you'd said came over as more of the same.

 

[Tom]

What Scouse is trying to say is that in war, shit happens, shit that governments would rather people not know about. And if I may add something to his point, I think a great many people governed by those governments would also rather not know about that shit, mainly because it spoils their rosy view of life.

 

[rynnor]

I think a great many people governed by those governments would also rather not know about that shit, mainly because it spoils their rosy view of life.

This is sad but true tbh - it's a large part of how we end up with such governments.

 

[Chilly]

Well the main one is that the US government has repeatedly and publicly denied that US citizens are being spied on in this way, and the NSA's charter specifically forbids it. (Let's be clear, this isn't about the NSA spying on us that's causing the furore, its about the NSA spying on its own people).

For all the congressmen saying this guy is a traitor, there's a perfectly valid counter-argument that he had a duty as a citizen to blow the whistle on this because he's actually reporting a crime in progress.

Fair enough.

 

[Hawkwind]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eign-politicians-at-g20-meetings-8662455.html

OMG, A country spied on foreign diplomats at a political/financial summit! if people really believe this is unacceptable, they have very unrealistic view of the way the world works. All countries know this shit goes on and take measures against it - bug sweeps, encryption phones etc. Friend of my wife used to work in the service and although she doesn't talk about any specifics she can recount some very funny stories about meeting with people in parks and making drops knowing they were being followed. Most of it was fake and misdirection, its a big game.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think that i'm still not sure what this thread is about

 

[Hawkwind]

I think that i'm still not sure what this thread is about

Wikileaks without the wiki! This time a US (4 year) NSA employee has blown the whistle on what the US snoops on, basically as a much as possible. To think that US spy agencies might actually monitor email and social media is all to shocking apparently.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Wikileaks without the wiki! This time a US (4 year) NSA employee has blown the whistle on what the US snoops on, basically as a much as possible. To think that US spy agencies might actually monitor email and social media is all to shocking apparently.

Oh, yeah that totally blew my mind, don't know how i can cope with life anymore

 

[DaGaffer]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eign-politicians-at-g20-meetings-8662455.html

OMG, A country spied on foreign diplomats at a political/financial summit! if people really believe this is unacceptable, they have very unrealistic view of the way the world works. All countries know this shit goes on and take measures against it - bug sweeps, encryption phones etc. Friend of my wife used to work in the service and although she doesn't talk about any specifics she can recount some very funny stories about meeting with people in parks and making drops knowing they were being followed. Most of it was fake and misdirection, its a big game.

I've got to admit, the Russians of all people acting all indignant about this is both hilarious and hypocritical.

 

[Scouse]

I think we're probably worse than the russians ever were...

 

[Embattle]

Never mind eh.

 

[Scouse]

Monday July 1, 21:40 UTC

One week ago I left Hong Kong after it became clear that my freedom and safety were under threat for revealing the truth. My continued liberty has been owed to the efforts of friends new and old, family, and others who I have never met and probably never will. I trusted them with my life and they returned that trust with a faith in me for which I will always be thankful.

On Thursday, President Obama declared before the world that he would not permit any diplomatic "wheeling and dealing" over my case. Yet now it is being reported that after promising not to do so, the President ordered his Vice President to pressure the leaders of nations from which I have requested protection to deny my asylum petitions.

This kind of deception from a world leader is not justice, and neither is the extralegal penalty of exile. These are the old, bad tools of political aggression. Their purpose is to frighten, not me, but those who would come after me.

For decades the United States of America have been one of the strongest defenders of the human right to seek asylum. Sadly, this right, laid out and voted for by the U.S. in Article 14 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, is now being rejected by the current government of my country. The Obama administration has now adopted the strategy of using citizenship as a weapon. Although I am convicted of nothing, it has unilaterally revoked my passport, leaving me a stateless person. Without any judicial order, the administration now seeks to stop me exercising a basic right. A right that belongs to everybody. The right to seek asylum.

In the end the Obama administration is not afraid of whistleblowers like me, Bradley Manning or Thomas Drake. We are stateless, imprisoned, or powerless. No, the Obama administration is afraid of you. It is afraid of an informed, angry public demanding the constitutional government it was promised — and it should be.

I am unbowed in my convictions and impressed at the efforts taken by so many.

Edward Joseph Snowden

That's not being carried by any major news carrier, despite the whereabouts of Edward Snowdon still being major news, it appears what he says isn't.

Neither are the criminal surveillance operations...

 

[dysfunction]

That's not being carried by any major news carrier, despite the whereabouts of Edward Snowdon still being major news, it appears what he says isn't.

Neither are the criminal surveillance operations...

Its just been read out on bbc radio 4...

 

[rynnor]

I wonder what the US threatened to do to Ecuador that frightened them so much?

 

[Zarjazz]

I wonder what the US threatened to do to Ecuador that frightened them so much?

"We don't want Julian Assange, you can keep him forever"

 

[TdC]

lol

 

[Scouse]

Its just been read out on bbc radio 4...

Still not being carried by the BBC News website - they now carry a small extract of it and link to Wikileaks.

I wonder what the US threatened to do to Ecuador that frightened them so much?

They threatened Ecuador with revoking a preferential trade agreement and Ecuador said "fuck you" to the US - at least publically.

Privately I think they realise it was was a harsh move from the US to punish many for the actions of one, so I think they'd prefer he went elsewhere if possible.