Doom 4?

[BloodOmen]

Some turn wheels work in games though, i kind of liked it in fallout NV (though it was a menu thing, not a gear thing).

Aye but you could tell it was made with consoles in mind because while the turn wheel was active the whole game slows down to allow console peasants time to pick a weapon with their primitive technology.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Aye but you could tell it was made with consoles in mind because while the turn wheel was active the whole game slows down to allow console peasants time to pick a weapon with their primitive technology.

Yeah ofcourse, didn't mean to defend a weapon wheel on PC

Devs should get ze finger out of ze bum and port properly. Put it in the damn budget and work with that in mind.

Weapon wheel for consoles, other for PC. Takes about a day(max) of work for one coder (essentially hide the wheel on PC and assign hotkeys).

I don't think "consoles in mind" is a bad thing necessarily, but devs should keep it at that, not at "console and pc interchangable".

 

[Raven]

I don't think "consoles in mind" is a bad thing necessarily

Yes, yes it is. Its like designing a car for a chimp.

 

[Scouse]

Yes, yes it is. Its like designing a car for a chimp.

Agreed. Console design fucks *everything* - not just selecting weapons - but it also limits what game designers can put in a level and the layout of the levels themselves - because stuff that's navigable with a mouse and keyboard can easily become an insurmountable obstacle for the twattish control system.

Having to bear the console audience in mind is cancer to independent thoughtful design. It forces compromise. And nothing great is born of compromise.

 

[old.Tohtori]

A lot of gamedesign is compromise, be it schedule, budget, whatever. That applies to every game, even if you're making it just by yourself, and that's a fact you can't argue about

I said it's not necessarily a bad thing, if there's a good team working on the game and it doesn't define the design. Does this apply to all games that have been ported either way? No, absolutely not.

You're just wrong in the ultimatum and what you want to say is "design defined by consoles in mind". Which as said, is not good.

 

[Scouse]

A lot of gamedesign is compromise, be it schedule, budget, whatever. That applies to every game, even if you're making it just by yourself, and that's a fact you can't argue about

Absolutley. Of course.

However I'm talking about a single issue. Control. Hobbling a game because half of your audience won't have fun, because their control system is so desparately inferior is a compromise too far IMO.

FPS design solely for the keyboard-and-mouse toting PC market is infinitely superior. Consoles are a cancer when it comes to that - and that's borne out by the fact that FPS's are, in general, a desparate pile of shit nowadays. That is *solely* down to designers having to cater for cripples.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Switching the goalpost aside, that's also wrong. You can't put down a game being crap solely on the control scheme and if a control scheme defines the whole game, then it's poorly designed.

As per your own example; level design comes before control design, the levels define how the controls need to work, not the other way around.

Are FPSs crap these days? Arguable, but it's certainly not just due to it needing controls for the consoles.

 

[Scouse]

1) I've not switched the goalposts - I've specifically been talking about control mechanisms and their effects.

2) Level design does *not* come before figuring out what controllers you're going to use - i.e. your platform. You start out with a mouse + keyboard combo or gamepad. THEN you make a game based around what you have - and your target audience. I.E. PC, console or both.

If you can't navigate certain things with a controller then you don't design them that way. Despite the fact that they may be perfectly navigable with a mouse and keyboard (and fun too). It also applies to the enemies you fight in their movement and numbers - if you can't hit them with a controller then you don't design them to move like that / have so many at one time - despite the fact that it may be perfectly achieveable with a mouse and keyboard.

If you are designing your game with a controller in mind then you will *never* make certain design decisions because they would be stupid with a controller. That simple fact fucks game design for the non-crippled crowd. Period.

 

[old.Tohtori]

So how long did you work in game development again? I'm not arguing how i think it is, i'm telling you how it is.

 

[Raven]

Switching the goalpost aside, that's also wrong. You can't put down a game being crap solely on the control scheme and if a control scheme defines the whole game, then it's poorly designed.

You can for FPS games, there is a marked difference in the geometry of modern FPS games and those made prior to consoles becoming more popular. The maps and levels are designed to be easily navigable with a control pad and in doing so become less interesting, more corridory, flatter etc.

Compromise to allow for an inferior control mechanism has had a detrimental effect on FPS games in general.

And that's not to mention the awful radial menus and inventory management in other games that are again designed with control pads in mind.

Take Skyrim's Favorites system and single spell on hotbar at once for example. Horrible game design that made the experience less good in general. I would never play a caster in that game, just because the control system breaks the immersion. It would have worked so much better with a keyboard.

 

[Scouse]

Yep. Level design in FPS's peaked well over a decade ago IMO and has regressed ever since.

 

[Scouse]

So how long did you work in game development again? I'm not arguing how i think it is, i'm telling you how it is.

Lived for ten years with the guy who made goldeneye, timesplitters, just finished sunset overdrive - all console games.

He loves the old PC FPS level designs but can't do it on his console games because he knows they're too cripped up.

But he didn't have to tell me that - he agrees with me because it's *fucking obvious*.

Game design isn't some intellectually tricky ivory tower Toht. It's not rocket science. Certainly not if you've lived with games your whole life.

 

[old.Tohtori]

You can for FPS games, there is a marked difference in the geometry of modern FPS games and those made prior to consoles becoming more popular. The maps and levels are designed to be easily navigable with a control pad and in doing so become less interesting, more corridory, flatter etc.

Compromise to allow for an inferior control mechanism has had a detrimental effect on FPS games in general.

And that's not to mention the awful radial menus and inventory management in other games that are again designed with control pads in mind.

Take Skyrim's Favorites system and single spell on hotbar at once for example. Horrible game design that made the experience less good in general. I would never play a caster in that game, just because the control system breaks the immersion. It would have worked so much better with a keyboard.

As said, not solely. FPSs also have demanded more story, single player demands, multiplayer, tighter schedules, publisher demands to copy from Y because it made X many dollars and a whole more reasons why FPSs have changed the way they have. It's not to say consoles aren't at "fault"(fault being subjective to opinion on FPS games in general), but it isn't as simple. I said it before, telling you what i am does not exclude bad game design, or FPS games being "crap".

And like i said, controls do not define level design. That's a fact.

And @Scouse you can go watch how magnets work if you need a reply and you can tell your "friend" that he's one crappy designer if he can't do that.

 

[Scouse]

And like i said, controls do not define level design. That's a fact.

Lol

Facepalm all you like - but you're the one who can't see the obvious. You don't drive a car with handlebars...

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yes i will facepalm someone who has no idea on how game design or game dev works and still thinks they know better then someone who's worked in the industry for 15 years

 

[Bigmac]

I thought it looked great and looks hell of a lot of fun to play. Will be picking this up when it comes out on PC.

 

[Scouse]

Yes i will facepalm someone who has no idea on how game design or game dev works and still thinks they know better then someone who's worked in the industry for 15 years

The point was: Some things cannot be done with a controller as opposed to a keyboard or mouse.

Do you concede that this is correct or not?

 

[Scouse]

Awww. Poor @old.Tohtori - can't face the fact that a controller and a keyboard and mouse offer differing levels of control.

 

[Billargh]

The more you bellends cry the more powerful us scrubs become! Feed me my prettieeess\SSs!11

 

[Scouse]

The more you bellends cry the more powerful us scrubs become! Feed me my prettieeess\SSs!11

At least you have a sense of humour about it eh?

 

[Billargh]

At least you have a sense of humour about it eh?

Haha I know consoles are massively inferior when it comes to gfx/framerate etc, I just couldn't give anywhere near as much of a shit as you lot

 

[old.Tohtori]

The more you bellends cry the more powerful us scrubs become! Feed me my prettieeess\SSs!11

I don't mind consoles, i think PC is better for sure(master race and all), but consoles have brought millions of gamers into the gaming scene and countless of jobs into the market. It's also brought new tech in, new ways to think about games, new design ideas and list goes on. It's part of the culture and it wouldn't be as big as it is without.

Hell, some of the best games in past years wouldn't even exist without the console sales. GTA for one.

 

[Scouse]

Haha I know consoles are massively inferior when it comes to gfx/framerate etc, I just couldn't give anywhere near as much of a shit as you lot

It's not that I particularly give a shit. I've plenty to be playing. But when it comes to a game like this then consoles mean that it's nerfed way too much in a lot of different ways.

 

[Billargh]

It's not that I particularly give a shit. I've plenty to be playing. But when it comes to a game like this then consoles mean that it's nerfed way too much in a lot of different ways.

You won't hear any arguments from me about that, but I'm still excited as fuck about it.

I don't mind consoles, i think PC is better for sure(master race and all), but consoles have brought millions of gamers into the gaming scene and countless of jobs into the market. It's also brought new tech in, new ways to think about games, new design ideas and list goes on. It's part of the culture and it wouldn't be as big as it is without.

Hell, some of the best games in past years wouldn't even exist without the console sales. GTA for one.

As long as I'm not hoyed into that crowd I don't mind. I got my first console (Atari 7800) at around 3/4 years old and I've been flipping between PC and consoles since I was around 7. We had an ancient PC and I had to put DOS commands in to get Monkey Island/Day of the Tentacle etc to run.

 

[MYstIC G]

Yeah, so nobody gives a fuck about your arguments Scouse / Toht so back to the footage


View: https://youtu.be/QiinO9JPUGw

 

[old.Tohtori]

As long as I'm not hoyed into that crowd I don't mind. I got my first console (Atari 7800) at around 3/4 years old and I've been flipping between PC and consoles since I was around 7. We had an ancient PC and I had to put DOS commands in to get Monkey Island/Day of the Tentacle etc to run.

Heh yeah, brother is a console first / PC second player as well. I ofcourse have to give him sh*t about consoles, but it's all in good fun. The whole consoles/pc thing is ridicilous anyway(for those who take it seriously). Just talk if a game is sh*t or not WHEN you've played it. Like with doom 4; if it's a good game, who gives a f*ck.

 

[Billargh]

Heh yeah, brother is a console first / PC second player as well. I ofcourse have to give him sh*t about consoles, but it's all in good fun. The whole consoles/pc thing is ridicilous anyway(for those who take it seriously). Just talk if a game is sh*t or not WHEN you've played it. Like with doom 4; if it's a good game, who gives a f*ck.

I'll be honest, you, Raven and Scouse do my nut in with your constant bleating about how AIDS consoles are. This is one of the rare scenarios that you're the least annoying one of the trio though

 

[Scouse]

I'll be honest, you, Raven and Scouse do my nut in with your constant bleating about how AIDS consoles are.

Normally it's a reaction to someone else saying shit first. But in this case we're talking about a sequel to one of the daddies of PC gaming in 1993 - so to talk about it in it's traditional PC context is hardly surprising.

I'd love Doom 4 to be a spiritual successor to the original - however I watched that video and the gunwheel shit was *really really* jarring.

Maybe other people's bar's are now so low after a decade of mediocrity in the FPS arena - but I'm not going to not point out shit, and the reason why it's shit, just in case console fanboi's take umbrage with the facts.

That jarring gameplay break up is a direct result of console controllers. It's a lessening of the game for people not hobbled by controllers. Yes - there's certainly a larger amount of cash on offer for developers who multi-platform their content. But I remember a time when developers would release a game where their artform came first, and the cash came in because the game was so great. Now they're thinking of the potential bottom line first.

Clint Eastwood famously made one "clint" action flick followed by one non-commercial risky arthouse flick. He figured the cash-in would cover any potential losses that his more arty flicks may make. - and his more arty flicks are where the real gold is. Uncompromising...

 

[Billargh]

Normally it's a reaction to someone else saying shit first. But in this case we're talking about a sequel to one of the daddies of PC gaming in 1993 - so to talk about it in it's traditional PC context is hardly surprising.

Granted I cba to dig quotes up to the contrary, I've got better things to do (like nothing at all). There's been plenty of occasions whenever even a mention on console gaming comes in, the PC 'purists' are the first to pipe up about the inferior platform, regardless of how many times they've used the exact same line.

I'd love Doom 4 to be a spiritual successor to the original - however I watched that video and the gunwheel shit was *really really* jarring.

Maybe other people's bar's are now so low after a decade of mediocrity in the FPS arena - but I'm not going to not point out shit, and the reason why it's shit, just in case console fanboi's take umbrage with the facts.

The wheel could very well be just a console thing, like you said (or someone) it's obviously being played on a console, it doesn't mean it'll be the same on PC. Only time will tell.

Most of the time it appears the 'facts' are just "hoho, 30 fps/720p" ad nauseam. The game certainly doesn't look as chaotic as Doom once was, which is a shame, but I can't see us getting any closer to the old Doom these days. Prove me wrong though, I'd love it (inb4 Serious Sam).

In all honesty, I can't disagree with the last part, but part of me thinks it's just nostalgia creeping through, tinting peoples goggles a lovely shade of rose. I'm almost contradicting myself in the same post here, heh.

That jarring gameplay break up is a direct result of console controllers. It's a lessening of the game for people not hobbled by controllers. Yes - there's certainly a larger amount of cash on offer for developers who multi-platform their content. But I remember a time when developers would release a game where their artform came first, and the cash came in because the game was so great. Now they're thinking of the potential bottom line first.

Clint Eastwood famously made one "clint" action flick followed by one non-commercial risky arthouse flick. He figured the cash-in would cover any potential losses that his more arty flicks may make. - and his more arty flicks are where the real gold is. Uncompromising...

Alas, what art form isn't solely dictated by money these days? I guess you could argue the more underground scenes of music, but that's in the same league as indie game devs and arthouse movies.

 

[Scouse]

The game certainly doesn't look as chaotic as Doom once was, which is a shame, but I can't see us getting any closer to the old Doom these days. Prove me wrong though, I'd love it

Exactly my point m8. We'd love it to be as chaotic as the old doom.

We'd love it to hit the heights that we know FPS's can hit. It's not about the resolution it's played in, or the graphical fidelity. It's definitely about FPS, insane level design that can only be navigated with the best control mechanism that man has so far invented, it's about hordes of monsters that could only (just) be tackled with that control system.

But we're not going to get what we love. Because there's a load of people not using that control system and from the ground up the game has to be designed to cater for them, and their reduced abilities.


I'm not against the special olympics. I'm fully in support. But I wouldn't tell Usain Bolt that's the only arena he's allowed to compete in...