Do you support the opinions of the English Defence League

[Vasconcelos]

Really? Why?

Its simple economics that if you have a group of people willing to work for less then businesses will lower to what they can get away with?

If we didnt have immigrants willing to work for peanuts then the shortage of people for unskilled jobs would have caused wages to rise - therefore immigrants have impacted the wages as a whole in the unskilled sector?

Not rly.

In fact, time plays in favour of a wage rise. Why? In a similar way why the corporations been moving their industries from country to country throu history. Unskilled inmigrants working for the minimal wage tend to aquire skills in a developed economy, tend to copy paterns they see on the native ppl (certain rights, access to better conditions, ....), and sooner or later, they will start demanding a raise. In the same ways, industry have been bouncing from country to country as soon as the local workers start demanding social rights and balanced payment for their increased skills.

However, in an uncontrolled inmigrant scenario, theres the chance that the wages for low skilled jobs dont move or tend to decrease: for example, in Spain, southamerican inmigrants have seen lately how they are forced to compete with new inmigrants coming from Africa, who are willing to work for even less salary than the morocans / argelians (sp?), who are already cheaper than the southamericans, who ultimately are a cheaper workforce than native ppl and willing to make the "unwanted" jobs. The result: inmigrants competing with each other over laughable salaries (30 €/day of work) with a sad consequence, disturbs btween the different comunities of inmigrants (specially in the country towns over jobs in the harvesting season).

 

[rynnor]

err no. last time I checked MW was defined by law, not by businesses. if you get more than the base, then three things are happening: you are good (and thus get a reward), you have a job or agreement that warrants it, or you are lucky.

There are many people in the UK on less than minimum wage - its easy to employ unskilled immigrants at less with the threat that if they complain you'll replace them.

They either directly avoid it or just limit the number of paid hours - ie do 60 hour week get paid minimum wage for 20.

Oh or the other big scam is to pay a reasonable rate then deduct most of it for food n lodging etc. etc.

 

[TdC]

There are many people in the UK on less than minimum wage - its easy to employ unskilled immigrants at less with the threat that if they complain you'll replace them.

They either directly avoid it or just limit the number of paid hours - ie do 60 hour week get paid minimum wage for 20.

in that case you'd best be wondering why your businesses are so keen to break the law imo. perhaps you're focusing on the wrong problem?

 

[rynnor]

in that case you'd best be wondering why your businesses are so keen to break the law imo. perhaps you're focusing on the wrong problem?

No thats just business - even the large international financial company I work for have outsourced people on these deduction scams - if businesses can save money they will - its not like they have a social conscience.

 

[TdC]

No thats just business - even the large international financial company I work for have outsourced people on these deduction scams - if businesses can save money they will - its not like they have a social conscience.

sorry, I don't agree. if business doesn't feel the need to stay within the confines of the law then they should be made to do so.

saving money is one thing, breaking the law is another.

we're derailing though

 

[rynnor]

we're derailing though

Are we? - I dont know what the EDL stands for but presumably they are anti Immigration - probably for facile and racist reasons but I thought I'd make the point that not everyone who see's immigration as a bad thing for the UK is some kind of extremist nutter.

I have come to realise that there really are a number of downsides to the residents of these Isles be they black/white/orange etc.

 

[chipper]

And if you didn't have immigrants, there would be a lack of workforce.

Unless you have an amount of unemployed people WILLING to work those jobs, that equals the immigrants.

we have over 2 million unemployed more than half of that will be due to the recession my area has been decimated by it shops closing massive steel works laid off thousands. i find it offensive that you think people are unwilling to work they got laid off it isnt their fault, most would giv there back teeth to get a fucking job. any job its not just about what you get paid its about dignity and self respect most of these people have worked all their lives and have no wish to live off the state.

yes they can pay you less than minimum wage its called fiddling the books and it goes on all over the country. takeways, building sites, factories, christ the list is endless. there are some unscrupulous buisnesses out there who dont give a flyin fuck about their workforce as long as they are lining their own pockets. tryin watchin borderforce uk its quite eye opening to see just what goes on in regards to illegal immigrants.


when you take immigrants into the country it has a knock on effect and affects the entire system, NHS, social security, work, school, prison, housing. how do people not see that this just builds up to problems in the long run if its allowed to go on at the current rate?

we need immigration i get that but we need the right people in, dont take that as a racist remark cos it isnt, i mean skilled individuals who can bring something to benefit the country.

seriously tho stop bangin on about the unemployed its a very very small minority that refuse to work.

 

[rynnor]

we have over 2 million unemployed more than half of that will be due to the recession my area has been decimated by it shops closing massive steel works laid off thousands.

Actually its worse than that - just a tiny bit below 2.5 million unemployed of which nearly 2 million were employed until the recession - you cant really describe them as workshy since they were working.

 

[megadave]

we have over 2 million unemployed more than half of that will be due to the recession my area has been decimated by it shops closing massive steel works laid off thousands. i find it offensive that you think people are unwilling to work they got laid off it isnt their fault, most would giv there back teeth to get a fucking job. any job its not just about what you get paid its about dignity and self respect most of these people have worked all their lives and have no wish to live off the state.

yes they can pay you less than minimum wage its called fiddling the books and it goes on all over the country. takeways, building sites, factories, christ the list is endless. there are some unscrupulous buisnesses out there who dont give a flyin fuck about their workforce as long as they are lining their own pockets. tryin watchin borderforce uk its quite eye opening to see just what goes on in regards to illegal immigrants.


when you take immigrants into the country it has a knock on effect and affects the entire system, NHS, social security, work, school, prison, housing. how do people not see that this just builds up to problems in the long run if its allowed to go on at the current rate?

we need immigration i get that but we need the right people in, dont take that as a racist remark cos it isnt, i mean skilled individuals who can bring something to benefit the country.

seriously tho stop bangin on about the unemployed its a very very small minority that refuse to work.

 

[rynnor]

Thats not actually a counter arguement tho is it - might as well post owlpics.

 

[Ormorof]

just in response to the "muslims/immigrants" will start voting post heres the 2001 census (and it wont have changed drastically since then)
total pop minority ethnic group
Count % %

White 54153898 92.1 n/a

Mixed 677117 1.2 14.6

Asian or Asian British
Indian 1053411 1.8 22.7
Pakistani 747285 1.3 16.1
Bangladeshi 283063 0.5 6.1
Other Asian 247664 0.4 5.3

Black or Black British
Black Caribbean 565876 1.0 12.2
Black African 485277 0.8 10.5
Black Other 97585 0.2 2.1

Chinese 247403 0.4 5.3

Other 230615 0.4 5.0

All minority ethnic population 4635296 7.9 100

All population 58789194 100 n/a

Source: Census, April 2001, Office for National Statistics


it also notes that the "White" category includes "White British, White Irish and White Other" but also states that of those 54 million over 45 million are "White British"

so britain has maybe 80% British, 20% immigrant at the moment, the second biggest group are Indian of this group only 12.7% declared themselves as Muslim during this census, by the census trends and estimates that by 2035 there will be approximately 2 million muslims in the UK... now, the total population by then is expected to grow to about 71 million by, now by that logic that means 69 million people will not be muslims so i hardly think the country is in any danger of being oppressed by "muslim" factions seeking political power (though the danger is i suppose if they do try to form political parties based on religion then it could push a lot of people to voting for more radical parties)

 

[chipper]

and this is the point where anything further you have to say is just not worth listening to you are far worse than what you accuse me of being grow up.

 

[rynnor]

just in response to the "muslims/immigrants" will start voting post heres the 2001 census (and it wont have changed drastically since then)

There are two faulty assumptions here - one is that there has been a massive influx of Immigrants in the past 8 years - I'd love to give you a figure but rather regrettably the Government didnt keep a count

Two your founding this on the idea that Immigrants would actually return the census forms in the first place - many arent even registered to vote and they certainly wont know its illegal not to return it - they probably filed it in the bin.

 

[Ezteq]

...why do these discussions always get back on to muslims? At the beginning of the thread it was white supremecists, this is like tea at my in laws tbh you could start off talking about a sponge cake recipe and somehow at somepoint the conversation will turn to muslims and the condemnation of; honestly I really am expecting to get like a birthday or xmas card off them one year that starts off

"Dear Amber, Have a lovely day and...by the way did you see what those bloody muslims have been up to now...blah blah blah, Best wishes Inlaws xxx"

It is a very very odd social trend of this forum too that pretty much every race or religion based discussion will undoubtedly turn into an immigration discussion which in turn then evolves into a discussion about muslims.

Can we not all just save time and put out socio-political views into our signatures then when a thread about something else starts going in this direction we can just go "see sig" rather than keep on typing the same opinions and observations all the time?

 

[Ch3tan]

and this is the point where anything further you have to say is just not worth listening to you are far worse than what you accuse me of being grow up.

Without being offensive, or without trying to be anyway, your post does come across very daily mail.

Honestly the one thing we do well in this country is buy the hype put out by the government and papers. We are easily deflected from the important issues and like sheep we blame a convenient scapegoat.

 

[Ezteq]

...and like sheep we blame a convenient scapegoat.

you been watching countryfile again lad?

see what happens when you create an analogy while watching agricultural programming!! Beware!!

 

[chipper]

fair enough chetan i woudln't know ive never read it. but at least you could put that point across without been a dick. some of you however obviously have. make of that what you will.

like i said in the posts before hand ive stayed away from the papers and political parties to try to obtain an unbiased view from data ive found from official sources now i can only take that at face value try to get an overall view from different sources and thats what ive done.

without been aggressive how many others can say they have actually put time into doing that, instead of just screaming kill all immigrants or FU facist etc? sure a few of you have but ill also wager theres a good portion who havent.

i stand by what ive said i honestly believe immigration is a problem and i dont say it to be cool or to cause arguments i do it because the social and morale structure of this country is been destroyed and no one in power will listen for fear they are branded a racist.

back to the original point grps like the EDL are going to continue to sprout up as more and more english people feel abandoned by their government. whether or not people think its an issue or not is irrelevant because these grps are here and extreme parties are gaining momentum the government has to find a way to appease both sides of this argument not just say alls well go on about your lives.

 

[Ch3tan]

The social and moral structure of this country has not been destroyed by immigrants - many of whom are religious and have good ethical upbringing. You need to look at the standard of education and parenting in this country for that. England has been on a downward spiral for decades now, and those problems are not caused by immigration.

Violent crime for example, the increase of stabbing incidents, that is caused by the lack of morals and fear of the consequences. You cannot tell me this is caused by immigrants, it's caused because as a nation we have too many excuses and a culture of passing on the blame. We also do not punish criminals.

If I was an immigrant living in Croydon right now, I'd want to leave. I may get social benefits, but I'd look at the local culture, the youths I'd be sending my kids to school with and think "fuck this, these lot are corrupt, immoral and lacking all direction".

Look at how many people actually turn up to vote in this country, look at the vast number who don't even know what the policies of the main parties are. These are the same people that jump on any bandwagon that comes along. It will be the disgruntled, and the immoral and the criminals who vote on for groups like the BNP and EDL, and they know it, that is why their arguments are oversimplified bullshit.

 

[Zede]

quite disturbing how fascist some members of the forum are

indeed, but alas its the same old faces regurgitating the same old donkey wank.

To many millions have read the daily mail & similar papers, sorry propaganda over the years & this veiled racism can now be considered an art form.

Propaganda - some ppl here really need to understand what this means.

 

[noblok]

It is but for some reason they dont have the same level of unity as European countries do. For them nationalism means wearing flag pins.

Maybe it's because the nationalism hasn't that much to do with unity/social security. Maybe. (Obviously it'll have some effect, but calling the USA less nationalistic than, say, Belgium, is obviously wrong.)

 

[rynnor]

The social and moral structure of this country has not been destroyed by immigrants - many of whom are religious and have good ethical upbringing. You need to look at the standard of education and parenting in this country for that. England has been on a downward spiral for decades now, and those problems are not caused by immigration.

Violent crime for example, the increase of stabbing incidents, that is caused by the lack of morals and fear of the consequences. You cannot tell me this is caused by immigrants, it's caused because as a nation we have too many excuses and a culture of passing on the blame. We also do not punish criminals.

If I was an immigrant living in Croydon right now, I'd want to leave. I may get social benefits, but I'd look at the local culture, the youths I'd be sending my kids to school with and think "fuck this, these lot are corrupt, immoral and lacking all direction".

Look at how many people actually turn up to vote in this country, look at the vast number who don't even know what the policies of the main parties are. These are the same people that jump on any bandwagon that comes along. It will be the disgruntled, and the immoral and the criminals who vote on for groups like the BNP and EDL, and they know it, that is why their arguments are oversimplified bullshit.

Wow - I guess this cross-party bunch of MPs were all secret fascists with hidden agenda's - thanks for simplifying the debate so that we now know that anyone who questions Immigration as anything other than pure good = a fascist and probably a nazi, probably beats his wife etc

BBC NEWS | Politics | Immigration 'harming communities'

 

[chipper]

erm cant put christmas lights up in some areas now incase it offends some culutres (the towns etc)
cant fly the english flag cos its racist. and yes i got told to stop wavin the flag after a football match by a policeman cos it was politically incorrect seriously WTF
baa baa black sheep anyone? oh wait no its changed is it baa baa rainbow sheep now?
never said our own dont have problems, the whole chav culture is a huge problem that needs addressing. but you have to understand also there are whole neighbourhoods that have been overtaken by various religions/nationalities and you simply are NOT welcome there.


you have a point chetan in your last paragraph, most people dont giv a shit about politics for the simple reason they think the fucking lot are corrupt bastards and hey guess what they are right, the whole expenses topic is fueling the disillusionment of our government. so when you cant trust the 3 main parties who are you going to turn to, those who say the things you want to hear and guess what one of those big topics is immigration.

not sayin all immigrants are violent criminals but some will be and that just adds to an already over crowded prison system

yes alot of our problems are our own doing or possibly due to stupid fucking laws from brussels but thats a debate for another thread

immigration isnt the root of all our problems i know that im saying it adds to the problems we already face in this country and then some when you have to throw integration into the mix.

i want a country where everyone has a home and a job and doesnt live in fear ye its never likely to happen but its something everyone should strive for.
as long as your a citizen i dont care what colour or religion you are as long as you contribute to the system.

 

[Gorbachioo]

1) No I don't know what the stats show, since I have never seen stats that say immigrants are more likely to be criminals. They seem to not exist.

TDC's response to your post was lacking content because your orginal arguments had none, they just seemed like opinions shouted about by the disgruntled, opinions that are backed up by no facts.

2) I've been to the US 3 times, they have much more unity, national pride etc than any European nations. They can also be scarily patriotic.

Also someone earlier mentioned we should be more like Australia; no we bloody well shouldn't. Australians are overly harsh with their immigration policies, what we need to do is find a middle ground.

Oslo Muslims Six Times More Likely to Rape | The Brussels Journal

Thats the best i'll do. (try google)

Maybe it's because the nationalism hasn't that much to do with unity/social security. Maybe. (Obviously it'll have some effect, but calling the USA less nationalistic than, say, Belgium, is obviously wrong.)

You dont understand my point. Americans love jingoistic bullshit like saluting the flag and all that crap but still they dont feel about eachother as people in European countries do. The health care debate is a perfect example. I would never allow a situation where a single finnish person would lack healthcare but americans dont think that way. For them being american is no excuse to take their money. They use arguments like "why do you deserve health care when billions of people around the world dont have it either". In Europe it goes without saying that if the country as a whole can afford healthcare for all of its citizens then they get it for everyone.

 

[noblok]

You dont understand my point. Americans love jingoistic bullshit like saluting the flag and all that crap but still they dont feel about eachother as people in European countries do. The health care debate is a perfect example. I would never allow a situation where a single finnish person would lack healthcare but americans dont think that way. For them being american is no excuse to take their money. They use arguments like "why do you deserve health care when billions of people around the world dont have it either". In Europe it goes without saying that if the country as a whole can afford healthcare for all of its citizens then they get it for everyone.

My point is that this proves that you can be very nationalistic and still don't care for social security. Hence, there must be something else at the base of social security than nationalism.

 

[rynnor]

You dont understand my point. Americans love jingoistic bullshit like saluting the flag and all that crap but still they dont feel about eachother as people in European countries do.

Look at the flooding in New Orleans if you want to see the true american spirit of indifference to their fellow citizens in trouble - it was a National scandal.

 

[chipper]

am i allowed to post political party websites on here? if not can a mod please remove them for me

Asylum and immigration - The Labour Party
The Conservative Party | Policy | Where we stand | Immigration
lib dems sorry couldnt find any info on where they stand regarding immigration, did a bit more digging it seems the lib dems are pro immigration but seem to recognise measures need to be taken to help integration
UKIP policies in brief 2009 - UK Independence Party
(2nd bullet point)

if theres no problem why are 3 of the 4 largest parties determined to get tough on it? must be us fascists pressuring them into it..........

i really did want to stay away from the political parties but i feel like ive been forced into this to defend my position. when all our current citizens are in jobs unskilled or skilled then we should start the immigration process and say we need x amount to fill the hole in this area etc

anyway i am not going to be changing my mind immigration is a problem for a number of reasons no one has managed to convince me otherwise in 10 pages so i think im gonna let this thread drop to the bottom of the page be happy to carry it on in pms but im not gonna keep going over ground ive covered in the thread. enjoy your debate ppl.

 

[Gorbachioo]

My point is that this proves that you can be very nationalistic and still don't care for social security. Hence, there must be something else at the base of social security than nationalism.

I dont consider American nationalism to be real nationalism. I dont know what it is but its not the same thing as in other countries. What im saying here is that caring is an essential part of nationalism.

Secondly, i cant think of any other reason why Europeans would pay for such generous social security if they didnt value their countrymen more than other people. We could end all poverty in the world with money we use on social security every year but still we choose to give that money to people we regard as our own.

 

[old.Tohtori]

i find it offensive that you think people are unwilling to work

I'm simply going by what UK peeps have been saying for ages on these forums; "lazy gits living off benefits" "lazy chavs just living off the state" etc.

More time then not, those are the things you hear.

It's all speculation though, one way and other, and if immigrants were removed, wouldn't mean that jobs would necessary pay more etc.

 

[Ch3tan]

Wow - I guess this cross-party bunch of MPs were all secret fascists with hidden agenda's - thanks for simplifying the debate so that we now know that anyone who questions Immigration as anything other than pure good = a fascist and probably a nazi, probably beats his wife etc

BBC NEWS | Politics | Immigration 'harming communities'

Not at all, I agree that immigration is a problem, but not legal immigration, illegal immigration and our lax control of asylum seekers. And I'm hardly simplifying the debate anymore than has already been done.

I said earlier that we need a distinction in this thread about what kind of immigration people are referring to, not the blanket bullshit put out by BNP, EDL etc that all immigration is evil.

 

[TdC]

Thats the best i'll do. (try google)

I did. Please see results below.

if theres no problem why are 3 of the 4 largest parties determined to get tough on it? must be us fascists pressuring them into it..........

because it gets them votes from the masses dude. open your eyes.


now: the results of 5 minutes in google. funny Gorb didn't find it tbh. please note that I do not add any conclusions of my own.

for those arguing immigrants cause significant rises in crime, please read and try to understand this document: http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/docs/stats-race-criminal-justice-system-07-08-revised.pdf
I especially would like to draw your attention to the 5.* tables

as to the people arguing that large numbers of immigrants are responsible for massive losses of jobs in the UK, please read and try to understand this document: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs09/hosb1409.pdf
I especially would like to draw your attention to the 4.* tables.