Do you support the opinions of the English Defence League

[GReaper]

A recent BBC blog post is probably relevant here - Map of the Week: Forgotten white working classes.

We've been going full steam ahead into the wonderful multicultural society and ignored the fact that for some areas and some people there are problems coming from it.

Face facts, there are issues which aren't being addressed - we've got immigrant ghettos appearing over the country. Migrants tend to flock together, instead of trying to integrate with the British society we're ending up with groups of people forming their own communities. The people who lived in those areas feel like they're no longer living in their own country. I'm sure you wouldn't want to live in an area like Sparkbrook in Birmingham.

We've also got plenty of white working class people who feel like they're being pushed out. Many of them have lost their jobs from old industries which are no longer here. They've got the image of all the immigrants stealing their jobs and have lost all hope.

Just to be clear here, I'm certainly not anti-immigration - however I certainly don't see it as a huge magic wand which improves the country either. Of course there are plenty of benefits to be gained from migrant workers, but there are problems which certain areas have and adding thousands of immigrants into them isn't going to help the matter.

The issues are never addressed because anyone who dares criticise immigration gets labelled a racist, how could someone criticise our wonderful multicultural society?!

 

[megadave]

for those arguing immigrants cause significant rises in crime, please read and try to understand this document: http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/docs/stats-race-criminal-justice-system-07-08-revised.pdf
I especially would like to draw your attention to the 5.* tables

shows that black people get convicted way more than anyone else despite white people committing significantly more crimes

Average reading age of the example areas in that link was age 7, Greaper. Says a lot imo

ethnic people moan about being a minority and when they move together the white people moan they're becoming a minority

 

[Everz]

crimes commited by the darkers oh snap.

 

[soze]

The problem is not just with immigration but with our weak borders and all the studies government or other wise can't know how many people have entered the UK illegally and are working for sub minimum wage. Not saying they are taking jobs as they are prolly working as cleaners ect jobs that your average lay about would not do for minimum wage as they would rather claim dole.

It's one of the reasons I'm a fan of the ID card, a card with all your information on it that you have to carry with you could make things much easier.

But none of this matters as unless someone like the BNP EDL or UKIP get into power nothing will be done the big 3 are all far to scared of bad PR to say we are shutting our borders piss off.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I said earlier that we need a distinction in this thread about what kind of immigration people are referring to, not the blanket bullshit put out by BNP, EDL etc that all immigration is evil.

Quite true.

Legal immigrants are not a problem at all, workforce, people as much as UK peeps. (Afterall, citizen is simply a person who is allowed to live in the city with the cops and such )

Illegal ones, well, any illegal activity is a problem. That's why it's illegal.

Same divider is needed for the social bums and unemployed not by choice.

I also think that someone who lives off benefits rather then works, even if the pay isn't even benefit level, isn't all "clean".

 

[Ch3tan]

It's one of the reasons I'm a fan of the ID card, a card with all your information on it that you have to carry with you could make things much easier.

Yes because illegal immigrants are going to carry an Id card. They are already in the country without documentation, why would they care? The people that employ them are not going to give a shit.

I do not want to live in a country where I can be stopped and asked to "show my papers". We live in a free country, and do not need scaremongering to take away our civil rights while at the same time giving a huge contract to a private business.

Do you really want to waste police time by having them stop random people on the street asking for their ID? Do you want to be locked up for forgetting your ID at home or having lost it?

Honestly, I've never in my life come across soo many people in one place that eat up everything we are told by the government and media. If you guys give an accurate reflection of the voters in this country, it is no wonder so many people who can afford to and have skills (yes the people that contribute to our taxes and society) migrate out of this country.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Good point on the illegals not giving a sh*t, there's a reason they are illegal. But this;

I do not want to live in a country where I can be stopped and asked to "show my papers".

Isn't it like this already in the UK?

Or is it just towards ethnic groups and not whitey?

 

[Ch3tan]

Isn't it like this already in the UK?

Or is it just towards ethnic groups and not whitey?

Hell no, it is not like that in the UK. Where did you get that from?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Hell no, it is not like that in the UK. Where did you get that from?

Wasn't it just in the news how some guy and his 10 year old kid or something were stopped for an inspection?

Not to mention, the police(if i remember correctly) have always had the right to check your ID.

 

[Vasconcelos]

I dont consider American nationalism to be real nationalism. I dont know what it is but its not the same thing as in other countries. What im saying here is that caring is an essential part of nationalism.

Secondly, i cant think of any other reason why Europeans would pay for such generous social security if they didnt value their countrymen more than other people. We could end all poverty in the world with money we use on social security every year but still we choose to give that money to people we regard as our own.

Nonono

The reason why Americans dont favour Social Security Systems is found in their traditional views of life. For them, its much better not to pay any taxes and only pay for their medical care when they get ill, than pay in advance (in the form of a tax deducted from their salary) and be able to receive public medical treatment at anytime (old EU systems).
However, ask them to pay a "tax" for funds destined to self defense, and you will have all of those "anti Obama Social Security System" protesters willing to pay.

For instance, Does their federal system make them any less patriotic, when any US federal state have more jurisdictions (state police, state laws, state taxes...) than any "region" or "province" of any EU country (cept Germany's or Spain's)? No, there is no "Im from California" or "Im from New Hampshire", but there is "Im american"

Thats the odd thing from US ppl, they can form a society based in the individualism, but still, when it comes to national pride, even a mexican inmigrant with a 5yo green card feels more nationalist than any of us.

 

[Ch3tan]

You'll have to link that one, because I can't find it.

Are you sure it was not a stop and search under our "all powerful" anti-terror laws?

 

[old.Tohtori]

You'll have to link that one, because I can't find it.

Are you sure it was not a stop and search under our "all powerful" anti-terror laws?

Could be that too now that you mention it. Yeah, guess that's why it was news.

Then again anyone could be stopped with the anti-terror law and it's nto a long stretch to any reason stops.

Though i'm still quite certain the police have had a right to stop&check. Or it's in Finland, but remembered it's rather global.

 

[Ch3tan]

Could be that too now that you mention it. Yeah, guess that's why it was news.

Then again anyone could be stopped with the anti-terror law and it's nto a long stretch to any reason stops.

Though i'm still quite certain the police have had a right to stop&check. Or it's in Finland, but remembered it's rather global.

The police have stop and search laws, but it involves a hell of a lot of paperwork for them. They don't search you demanding an ID, or proof of residency. The stop and search laws are designed to stop crime by getting drugs and weapons off the streets.

 

[old.Tohtori]

The police have stop and search laws, but it involves a hell of a lot of paperwork for them. They don't search you demanding an ID, or proof of residency. The stop and search laws are designed to stop crime by getting drugs and weapons off the streets.

Ah ok, i guess it's similar in the Fins, but we dont that much get bothered if the police want to check our ID.

Afterall, i do believe that if you don't have anything to hide...

 

[Chronictank]

A recent BBC blog post is probably relevant here - Map of the Week: Forgotten white working classes.

We've been going full steam ahead into the wonderful multicultural society and ignored the fact that for some areas and some people there are problems coming from it.

Face facts, there are issues which aren't being addressed - we've got immigrant ghettos appearing over the country. Migrants tend to flock together, instead of trying to integrate with the British society we're ending up with groups of people forming their own communities. The people who lived in those areas feel like they're no longer living in their own country. I'm sure you wouldn't want to live in an area like Sparkbrook in Birmingham.

We've also got plenty of white working class people who feel like they're being pushed out. Many of them have lost their jobs from old industries which are no longer here. They've got the image of all the immigrants stealing their jobs and have lost all hope.

Just to be clear here, I'm certainly not anti-immigration - however I certainly don't see it as a huge magic wand which improves the country either. Of course there are plenty of benefits to be gained from migrant workers, but there are problems which certain areas have and adding thousands of immigrants into them isn't going to help the matter.

The issues are never addressed because anyone who dares criticise immigration gets labelled a racist, how could someone criticise our wonderful multicultural society?!

The concept of these 'poor white working class' is completely foreign to me, would you mind explaining who these people are?

Why aren't they working/learning to try to improve their quality of life?, you can't say they don't have the capability because the whole education system is tailored to underachievers now days you have umpteen benefits if your family income is below a certain level, hell you go to uni for free/heavily subsidized amount if you are at a certain income bracket and more and more universities provide part time degrees (not to mention open learning)
It certainly isn't because of 'those immigrants taking their jobs' (who these mysterious immigrants are i don't know because i nor my friends have had trouble finding a job since i was 16), albeit before a recession

From personal experience a poor area full of white people is just as much a shit hole as a poor area full of foreigners, so i don't really see why you are painting it in a negative connotation. As for being forced out of 'their' country, it's not just 'their' country
You will find the areas you are referring to are not new migrants they are area's with 3rd,4th and even 5th generation people who for all intents and purposes are just as British as the indigenous population

There also are very valid reasons WHY they move there, one simple one being their dietary preferences. If you are a muslim (since we love bringing them up in particular) you will want to find a halal butcher,
where is this likely to be found? where there is the demand
where is the demand? where there is a higher concentration of muslims
So people are likely to move as a result? in that area where what they want is easily accessible

 

[soze]

Yes because illegal immigrants are going to carry an Id card. They are already in the country without documentation, why would they care? The people that employ them are not going to give a shit.

I do not want to live in a country where I can be stopped and asked to "show my papers". We live in a free country, and do not need scaremongering to take away our civil rights while at the same time giving a huge contract to a private business.

Do you really want to waste police time by having them stop random people on the street asking for their ID? Do you want to be locked up for forgetting your ID at home or having lost it?

Honestly, I've never in my life come across soo many people in one place that eat up everything we are told by the government and media. If you guys give an accurate reflection of the voters in this country, it is no wonder so many people who can afford to and have skills (yes the people that contribute to our taxes and society) migrate out of this country.

If every legal citizen had a ID Card to Eye and Thumb recorded in a database a stop and search would be much faster. So they pull someone over he has no card they scan his thumb and he is not in the system or it says that he came to the country a year ago on a 3 month visa they then know he is an illegal and can act on it. The card it self is not the important part its the database behind it.

I never mentioned random stop and searches so i don't know where that came from. And im sorry im not paranoid about the government having my finger prints as i don't tend to break the law i really don't see any harm in it.

 

[Sparx]

what happens when that database is hacked and ends up in the hands of someone who shouldnt have it

Imagine if Hitler had access to a database with the names of every single Jew in it for example

 

[old.Tohtori]

what happens when that database is hacked and ends up in the hands of someone who shouldnt have it

Imagine if Hitler had access to a database with the names of every single Jew in it for example

Well that's even a risk now.

Info on citizens is in the hands of the government and someone could hack and get them. They could hack and get your bank info, personal info, address, medical history etc.

You can't stop progress, in any form, just because things might go, on some level, wrong.

Risk vs reward = acceptable change.

 

[Sparx]

its already been proven that government bodies cant be trusted with such powers, prime example of government departments using terrorism laws to turn CCTV to spy on people suspected of fiddling disability benefits.

Im not saying fiddling benefits is right, but using serious laws to stop terrorists for such petty things just shows how easy these people can ill treat things that are there to protect us

 

[soze]

what happens when that database is hacked and ends up in the hands of someone who shouldnt have it

Imagine if Hitler had access to a database with the names of every single Jew in it for example

That's the big difference I see what good could come from them you see the negatives. If you believe half the crap you read the Government all ready have all this information and yet it has not been hacked, left on the train yes but not hacked.

I suppose this is an agree to disagree moment i do not think the government having the same data as they already have for my passport and driving license is too big of a risk.

 

[old.Tohtori]

its already been proven that government bodies cant be trusted with such powers, prime example of government departments using terrorism laws to turn CCTV to spy on people suspected of fiddling disability benefits.

Im not saying fiddling benefits is right, but using serious laws to stop terrorists for such petty things just shows how easy these people can ill treat things that are there to protect us

If that is the reason to not go forward, there are bigger problems then ID card suggestions.

the whole government is a problem if it can't be trusted with simple data-hiding.

 

[Vasconcelos]

If the hack were such a devastating issue, the whole western countries would be in such a trouble as corporations like banks (e.g) have already all those data about ppl.

About an ID, as sum1 said earlier, only the ppl who knows they life in the edge of the law would be against being put in a safe list throu thumb/eye.

 

[swords]

Most of the violence is from people who don't particularly give a toss about the politics but just want an excuse to have a scrap. It's just footy hooligans exploiting another niche. Same with unite against fascism... soome nutters there proviking a reaction and surprise surprise it kicks off.

It's retarded.

 

[Gorbachioo]

Nonono

The reason why Americans dont favour Social Security Systems is found in their traditional views of life. For them, its much better not to pay any taxes and only pay for their medical care when they get ill, than pay in advance (in the form of a tax deducted from their salary) and be able to receive public medical treatment at anytime (old EU systems).
However, ask them to pay a "tax" for funds destined to self defense, and you will have all of those "anti Obama Social Security System" protesters willing to pay.

For instance, Does their federal system make them any less patriotic, when any US federal state have more jurisdictions (state police, state laws, state taxes...) than any "region" or "province" of any EU country (cept Germany's or Spain's)? No, there is no "Im from California" or "Im from New Hampshire", but there is "Im american"

Thats the odd thing from US ppl, they can form a society based in the individualism, but still, when it comes to national pride, even a mexican inmigrant with a 5yo green card feels more nationalist than any of us.

Only millionaires can afford to pay for healthcare only after they get ill. Everyone else need a health insurance - which is essentially how it works here only the government is our health insurance company.

And yes Americans do have a military fetish but that doesnt mean that they are willing to spend on public projects. Raising taxes is like committing treason in America.

This is besides the point here but yes i do believe that most americans consider themselves just americans instead of citizens of their state. There are exceptions though, like Texas for example which, threatened to secede if Obama didnt stop the bail outs.

Im not saying americans arent proud to be americans. In their mind being american is not something that entitles people to certain treatment like it does in Europe. I think this is pretty obvious but for some reason people here dont seem to get it. (Im guessing this has something to do with the fact that we have all been taught to hate nationalism all our lives but lets save that for another thread)

 

[old.Tohtori]

Im not saying americans arent proud to be americans. In their mind being american is not something that entitles people to certain treatment like it does in Europe. I think this is pretty obvious but for some reason people here dont seem to get it. (Im guessing this has something to do with the fact that we have all been taught to hate nationalism all our lives but lets save that for another thread)

Yeah, that's why most of their competitions and such have the "World" in it, like "the leader of the free world"

Patriotism is one of the defining aspects of the US.

 

[Vasconcelos]

Only millionaires can afford to pay for healthcare only after they get ill. Everyone else need a health insurance - which is essentially how it works here only the government is our health insurance company.

Ah! But here is the trick. An average insurance costs a reasonable amount, but get ill a couple of times a year, and the "franchise" starts skyrocketing. Not to mention if the treatment involves expensive tests (MRI, tomographies, ultrasounds, surgery or any specific therapy), whereas in the EU systems, those are covered by public health.
Americans prefer to pay for them (in the form of hospital bills or throu insurance franchises) when the event occurs, instead to be covered for life throu your taxes.
Although, in Europe, public health, as a "universal right", is pretty much a common trend across the continent, americans have another view on the matter (their concept of a "universal right" is being allowed to keep a shotgun under the pillow in case King George decides to raise from his tomb and invade USA)

Moreover, their traditional economic system is less "prone" to weight their public budget with a health care system that in EU uses to mean around 20-25% of the public budget

 

[Ormorof]

If the hack were such a devastating issue, the whole western countries would be in such a trouble as corporations like banks (e.g) have already all those data about ppl.

About an ID, as sum1 said earlier, only the ppl who knows they life in the edge of the law would be against being put in a safe list throu thumb/eye.

im not so bothered about the idea of the government getting hacked, im more bothered about some moron civil servant leaving his laptop on the tube, or a CD with millions of peoples info on the bus...

 

[Ormorof]

Yeah, that's why most of their competitions and such have the "World" in it, like "the leader of the free world"

Patriotism is one of the defining aspects of the US.

if you are refering to the World Series it is called that because it was originally sponsored by a sports magazine that did cover world events ^^

and theres nothing wrong with being a Patriot (loving ones country) but theres a big difference between that and being a nationalist (hating anything not your country) at least thats always how i've viewed it

 

[aika]

so civil war in uk circa 2035 ?

 

[Thadius]

No at all aika, Id give it 10 years. Tops.