Do you support the opinions of the English Defence League

[old.Tohtori]

-Immigrants vote. So far immigrants havent organized as political parties but that will happen some day. These parties will then try to make our countries more similar to the countries the immigrants are from. Since so many immigrants are muslims i dont want to see this happen.

This from someone who said "I don't vote 'cause it changes nothing"

 

[TdC]

Immigration is a problem because:

- It increases crime. Statistically immigrants (some more than others, more on that later) are more likely to commit crimes.
where did you find that awesome statistic?

- It drives down wages. The more cheap labor you import, the less you have to pay them. The old argument that they do jobs that the rest of us dont want is mostly bullshit. They are human beings aswell and therefore try to get the best life possible. If they can get a good job they will.
what cheap labor? non-self employed workers in the UK earn a base minimum wage, which you're required, by law, to be paid by your employer. read more here.

-It decreases national unity. The reason why Europe has the best social security is because of nationalism. Each country considers itself a group of its own and people are more likely to give money to people whom they consider a part of their group. This is the main reason why America doesnt have as much social security.
lolwhut?

-Immigrants vote. So far immigrants havent organized as political parties but that will happen some day. These parties will then try to make our countries more similar to the countries the immigrants are from. Since so many immigrants are muslims i dont want to see this happen.
lolwhut?

But i think its important to realise that many of these issues can be fixed by choosing the right kind of immigration. In other words, not taking in any muslims. Yes i know thats such a racist thing to say but ask yourselves this: Dont muslims do the biggest amount of crimes? Arent they the ones who are most actively changing this continent to make it like their countries? Arent they generally the ones causing the most problems and therefore decreasing national unity?
lolwhut?

Muslims arent the only problem group, but they are the biggest and in my opinion by far the worst.
lolwhut?

....If you're planning to call me a racist i would apreacite if you also told us all why.

lol. that would be funny if it wasn't so sad, Gorb :/

 

[megadave]

quite disturbing how fascist some members of the forum are

 

[Sparx]

most people seem to forget that all through history Britain has been an island of immigrants. Its been conquered over and over again

Earliest inhabitants (in scotland anyway) were Celts (who invaded from Ireland) Britons (Southern Scotland) Scots (who werent created till later) and a couple others that escape me right now. It wasnt even called scotland then it was 5/6 different kingdoms

The only reason Scotland merged to the one island was to rally against the romans and the catholic church.

I may have gone slightly OT there but my point is its always changed and had immigrants come and go, this influx of eastern europeans isnt anything new

 

[soze]

My big thing with immigrants is Language.

Police Doctors schools ect have to provide for these people but as they can't speak a jot of English you need a translator. My Aunt works in a school in London and for parents evening they had to hire translators as the parents spoke no English so you can either trust the child to translate or skip them altogether.

Hence wanting Conversational English as a rule.

 

[Sparx]

i agree with that, i hate going into my local shop just to buy things like milk etc and feeling like i am on holiday talking slowly etc cause the person doesnt understand me

And the person serving me is English too, bloody English why cant they understand Scottish

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yet, when you brits live in Finland, you expect us all to talk english to you?

Scots are different, they sound like they belong, even with english

 

[Sparx]

Yet, when you brits live in Finland, you expect us all to talk english to you?

Scots are different, they sound like they belong, even with english

Thats cause our English is shite

 

[old.Tohtori]

Thats cause our English is shite

Compared to Britlish, it's like listening angels sing.

Drunken angels...but still!

 

[noblok]

-It decreases national unity. The reason why Europe has the best social security is because of nationalism. Each country considers itself a group of its own and people are more likely to give money to people whom they consider a part of their group. This is the main reason why America doesnt have as much social security.

Wait. Hold on. You're claiming the USA are less nationalist than the average western European country? That's simply not true. Patriotism is very much a virtue over there.

 

[soze]

i agree with that, i hate going into my local shop just to buy things like milk etc and feeling like i am on holiday talking slowly etc cause the person doesnt understand me

And the person serving me is English too, bloody English why cant they understand Scottish

lol its so funny when my Dad (watered down Edinburgh accent) can't order a Coke without saying it 4 or 5 times.

 

[Ezteq]

lol I loved it when I went on holiday to amsterdam I said to a native there that I wanted to learn a few words so that I could ask for things in their language and he was like eek no don't bother, we all speak english because dutch is horrible to learn!!

 

[Sparx]

lol its so funny when my Dad (watered down Edinburgh accent) can't order a Coke without saying it 4 or 5 times.

Its only funny the first time that happens, when it happens everytime it quickly loses the fun value

 

[Ezteq]

hehe there was a lovely northern irish lady I used to work with years ago and she came up to me one day asking where the tiles were (this was in a nursing home) and I was like eh?? she respondes -Tiles, you know, tiles for the bathroom? Why are you tiling the bathroom? says I, Nooo Tiles, you know when people want to dry their hands, hand tiles and bath tiles!!

Swear to god true story!!

 

[soze]

Its only funny the first time that happens, when it happens everytime it quickly loses the fun value

I should have said its funny for me not so much for him i would bet.

 

[Sparx]

Yeah everyone else seems to find it funny when it happens to me, i swear one day im gonna snap, walk onto a bus, kill the driver and drive the bus into the thames

 

[Gorbachioo]

I'd call you vastly ignorant and a troll. Not racist, some muslim is not a race.

Also where are your crime stats to back up your claim?

The only ones i can dig up on a short notice are Finnish ones.

You know just aswell as i do what the stats show.

Wait. Hold on. You're claiming the USA are less nationalist than the average western European country? That's simply not true. Patriotism is very much a virtue over there.

It is but for some reason they dont have the same level of unity as European countries do. For them nationalism means wearing flag pins.

 

[rynnor]

I thought I'd put a few of the more real problems of Immigration together for balance:

1. Impact on Public Services
- In the UK we have experienced un-controlled/un-monitored immigration due to a combination of inept government/political correctness/eu laws that enshrine free movement of people within the EU.

A big problem this has exposed has been for forward planning - imagine you are a government looking at the provision of schools/social housing/hospitals etc. - its all based on census figures and estimates of growth.

Un-monitored immigration has completely screwed these figures leading to for instance an unexpected increase in the birth rate when its been declining for years - 1/3rd of children born in the uk are now born to Immigrants.

This has lead to pressure on school places/doctors etc. etc. - the whole system was un-prepared and without accurate figures local authorities do not get given sufficient rescources to cope with them which leads to a decline in services for the locals and either cuts to other services or hikes in the taxes.

2. Impact on Social Cohesion

Its human nature for people who go to a strange country to 'cluster' with others who are from the same culture/speak the same language. If these clusters become too big it can completely change the local culture - locals rightly feel they are now living in a foreign land if they hear more foreign languages than their own.

Since there has been no controls on immigration there has been no plan on how to integrate such people into society.

BBC NEWS | Politics | Immigration 'harming communities'

There are many positives about Immigration - like any issue there are two sides - unlike other issues though there has been a culture of supressing the downsides with such people labeled as 'racist'.

If there was a scale of well handled Immigration then the UK would be near the bottom - its this ineptitude that the current government has tried to cover with a smokescreen of racism

 

[TdC]

Sparx is clearly a terrorist. call the thought police!

 

[Gorbachioo]

lol. that would be funny if it wasn't so sad, Gorb :/

The only real point you made there (which was fairly stupid) was the one about minimum wage. Yes there is such a thing called minimum wage and because of immigration more people get it.

If you're going to lolwhut me then i suggest you say something else aswell. Just saying lolwhut makes you look kinda stupid. Especially when im right.

 

[Sparx]

Sparx is clearly a terrorist. call the thought police!

<image>

i demand you free all the sexy ladies and put them into my castle or i will bomb Slough

 

[TdC]

The only real point you made there (which was fairly stupid) was the one about minimum wage. Yes there is such a thing called minimum wage and because of immigration more people get it.

If you're going to lolwhut me then i suggest you say something else aswell. Just saying lolwhut makes you look kinda stupid. Especially when im right.

sorry Gorb, but I lolwhutted you because you aren't right and your arguments didn't warrant a decent response.

in fact, your argument that immigration causing more people to have minimum wage is also worthy of a lolwhut.

 

[rynnor]

in fact, your argument that immigration causing more people to have minimum wage is also worthy of a lolwhut.

Really? Why?

Its simple economics that if you have a group of people willing to work for less then businesses will lower to what they can get away with?

If we didnt have immigrants willing to work for peanuts then the shortage of people for unskilled jobs would have caused wages to rise - therefore immigrants have impacted the wages as a whole in the unskilled sector?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Really? Why?

Its simple economics that if you have a group of people willing to work for less then businesses will lower to what they can get away with?

If we didnt have immigrants willing to work for peanuts then the shortage of people for unskilled jobs would have caused wages to rise - therefore immigrants have impacted the wages as a whole in the unskilled sector?

And if you didn't have immigrants, there would be a lack of workforce.

Unless you have an amount of unemployed people WILLING to work those jobs, that equals the immigrants.

 

[old.Tohtori]

To quote Stephen Lynch;

"If I could be a superhero
I'd be Immigration dude
I’d send all the foreigners back to their homes
For eating up all of our food
And taking our welfare and best jobs to boot
Like landscaping, dishwashing, picking our fruit
I’d pass a lot of laws to get rid of their food
‘Cause I’d be Immigration Dude"

In case you miss it, that's supposed to be ironic

 

[Ch3tan]

The only ones i can dig up on a short notice are Finnish ones.

You know just aswell as i do what the stats show.


It is but for some reason they dont have the same level of unity as European countries do. For them nationalism means wearing flag pins.

1) No I don't know what the stats show, since I have never seen stats that say immigrants are more likely to be criminals. They seem to not exist.

TDC's response to your post was lacking content because your orginal arguments had none, they just seemed like opinions shouted about by the disgruntled, opinions that are backed up by no facts.

2) I've been to the US 3 times, they have much more unity, national pride etc than any European nations. They can also be scarily patriotic.

Also someone earlier mentioned we should be more like Australia; no we bloody well shouldn't. Australians are overly harsh with their immigration policies, what we need to do is find a middle ground.

 

[rynnor]

And if you didn't have immigrants, there would be a lack of workforce.

Unless you have an amount of unemployed people WILLING to work those jobs, that equals the immigrants.

The problem in the UK is that the benefits system doesnt work in a very clever way - if wages are too low its quite possible for people with dependants to be better off on benefits than working (which is crazy).

If there hadnt been mass immigration wages would have risen allowing more people to escape this benefit trap.

 

[old.Tohtori]

The problem in the UK is that the benefits system doesnt work in a very clever way - if wages are too low its quite possible for people with dependants to be better off on benefits than working (which is crazy).

If there hadnt been mass immigration wages would have risen allowing more people to escape this benefit trap.

I don't think it's that clear.

There aren't enough unemployed to fill immigrant jobs(i'm assuming here).

Even if the wages were higher, they wouldn't still be THAT high to bring in all of the people living with benefits.

Not to mention, those living on benefits out of choice probably have little interest in cleaning toilets for a living. 8h of work for a 50% more money(overkill), or do nothing and get enough still?

The fact is, while immigrants may do this or that "bad thing", without immigration, i bet the logistics of the UK would have a bit of a handful.

Also immigrants bring, as an example;

Extra work for housing building.
Extra buyers for food items.

It's not just a negative, but it's given that it's easier to FOCUS on the negative.

Well said earlier; "25% of crime is immigrants? That means 75% is UK".

 

[TdC]

Really? Why?

Its simple economics that if you have a group of people willing to work for less then businesses will lower to what they can get away with?

If we didnt have immigrants willing to work for peanuts then the shortage of people for unskilled jobs would have caused wages to rise - therefore immigrants have impacted the wages as a whole in the unskilled sector?

err no. last time I checked MW was defined by law, not by businesses. if you get more than the base, then three things are happening: you are good (and thus get a reward), you have a job or agreement that warrants it, or you are lucky.

don't know about you, but if you have an employer that structurally pays significantly more than MW for no reason other than the goodness of their hearts then you'd have thousands of job applicants from anywhere and they wouldn't even be immigrants.

 

[rynnor]

I don't think it's that clear.

There aren't enough unemployed to fill immigrant jobs(i'm assuming here).

Thats certainly not true now - even poorly paid work now gets a lot of applicants - most people still want to work.

Even if the wages were higher, they wouldn't still be THAT high to bring in all of the people living with benefits.

It depends if you assume people are lazy or that they want to work. Even a 1 pound an hour difference would lift people out of benefits - it doesnt have to be massive.

Not to mention, those living on benefits out of choice probably have little interest in cleaning toilets for a living. 8h of work for a 50% more money(overkill), or do nothing and get enough still?

Perhaps - like immigrants no one knows how many of these people exist in the UK

The fact is, while immigrants may do this or that "bad thing", without immigration, i bet the logistics of the UK would have a bit of a handful.

Undoubtably - although it would have given more incentive to employers to invest in training their staff, paying decent wages, improving working conditions etc. as it is with unlimited immigration the lowest bidder wins.

It's not just a negative, but it's given that it's easier to FOCUS on the negative.

Thats certainly true - what I think we are seeing is a backlash against the pervasive culture in the UK that you could never say Anything bad about Immigration without being labelled a racist.

Well said earlier; "25% of crime is immigrants? That means 75% is UK".

I took that as a made up stat - no-one in the UK would collect crime figures on Immigrants - its not politically correct