DAoC, population. Requiel post here aswell.

[Sharkith]

They are both - which makes both descriptions accurate.

The rest of your post says to me you just don't get it. You're painting me as a villain for taking issue with people who piss alot of people off with their attitude (even making out that I'm making it all up) - and yet you say you see nothing wrong in what, for example, Zede posts. To me that makes you a part of the problem - you're constantly berating me (and others) saying I am tarring you all with the same brush without ever taking issue with those you may be in a position to influence.

Bracken,

you clearly didn't get my point. Your contradicting yourself in this very thread and because of that contradiction any argument you have is being undermined. On the one hand when I challenged you some posts back about who you were referring to you said I was mis reading you and that you did not mean people like me and others who seem to be decent enough. You said you were attacking the attitude of some players. That is a fair point, however you then went on several posts later to say that you will happily label the ignorant bastards as FG players because that is the style they prefer. Now that leaves me wondering just what on earth you actually mean?

Either you see FG players as all the same (i.e. ignorant bastards) or you are attacking a small minority of ignorant bastards and calling them by the wrong label. What is it to be? As for Zede - I don't even know the geezer so why should I feel responsible for what he says? He seems old enough to look after himself why should I feel responsibility for his posts? I don't identify with his attitude or his sentiment so why should I feel I have to change it?

If I accept that I have to attack Zede I would accept your stereotype of me and I am afraid I don't. I simply have no clue who on earth your actually grinding your axe with.

Why I am going at you? Well is because you seem to thrive on building stereotypes of players in order to grind this axe in the name of some vague crusade. The crusade eludes me and the stereotypes don't actually work particularly well since many people play many styles of game.

In other words Bracken you have no argument. All you have is an abundance of prejudice and opinion. All coat and no knickers.

Sharkith

 

[Sharkith]

Sharkith. If you care to go back through the strata of RvR posts (I really can't be bothered to myself, so you can choose to believe I'm making it up if you prefer - here's a selection to get you started though), I can clearly remember a series of threads where some of the main proponents of 'honourable fights' were saying basically 'I'm entitled to grief you by spamming abuse at you when you add because by adding you're griefing me.'
That's as close to a direct quote as my memory allows. I'm sure that if I wasn't in dire need of sleep I'd be able to find the actual post.

Sorry Cretien I don't get the link and I should have replied to you directly - it got late and I needed to get to bed .

There have been cases of arguments here where people have claimed the right to be abusive because people broke a 'fair fight'. There is no denying that fact. There is some evidence that there has been abuse. However, this is a forum where a small and relatively unrepresentative group of the gaming community come to discuss the game.

Knowing that there has been abuse here and in game is in no way good evidence that there has been widespread abuse by a clearly identifiable group of people. Which is the basis of Bracken and others argument.

In fact to the contrary there is an abundance of evidence that the 'group' definitions generated by the relatively unrepresentative bunch here are not good representations of people who play the game. You see Bracken does what Censi does. They both generate categories to lump people together in order to make charges about those people. Censi does it knowingly I dunno why Bracken does it thats all. Its why I am confused, this grouping and stereotyping is a dangerous game.

Censi is quite skilled at labelling people ('Lemons' being the latest category he has contributed) he seems to think the categories are fun and make for good forum reading. I kinda don't like them - but they do catch and you do end up using them. What I don't get is why Bracken uses similar tactics esp[ecially when he seems to be grouping me and others with people we simply do not agree with. Then in his most recent post he accuses me of not doing anything about 'these people' and that I am part of the problem? I mean all I can see is Bracken inventing a box - putting me and others in it and then blaming us for being in the box (all the time we are going WTF is this guy on!!) and doing nothing about it. Does that not seem strange to you?

So to sum up of course abuse is a significant problem but I don't see it as being as widespread as people are making out in this thread. I don't think calling people names and subsequently mis categorising others is a constructive way to tackle the issue though. It would be better to start with the problem itself and deal with that directly rather than going around the houses. I guess thats all I am trying to say here.

 

[Bracken]

F*ck me, I couldn't have spelled it out any more clearly. If someone abuses someone for "adding" on an 8v8 fight then they must by definition be a fg'er. They are also a tosser (in my book) and I'll take issue with them for THAT reason. The fact I also refer to them as a "fg'er" is completely immaterial (I don't use the term itself as a form of abuse, unlike those who do so with "zerger" or "adder"). Someone who who just enjoys 8v8 and doesn't feel the need to abuse people is just not a problem and anyone who abuses them for not adding is a tosser (in my book) - and I've taken issue with those people before. You use clever plays on words and definitions to try and achieve what? I'm not on any "crusade" (I'd love to know what the alleged purpose of this "crusade" is, no doubt it's "For Arthur!") - I just post if I feel like it in reaction to something I read or something that is said. You on the other hand seem to be on some publicity drive to uphold the good name of fg'ers everywhere when it's not even the f*cking issue and your main tactic is to berate me. Direct your attention where it's needed - at those fg'ers with the crap attitude - and you'd be serving a purpose. Oh wait, you can't do that because I'm just making it up for the purposes of a "crusade"

 

[Sharkith]

F*ck me, I couldn't have spelled it out any more clearly. If someone abuses someone for "adding" on an 8v8 fight then they must by definition be a fg'er.

What I am telling you is that in fact simply because someone is in a FG when they hurl abuse by no means means they are a 'FG player'. You identify them as such by using the label when in fact as has been said ad nauseum this is not the case - people identify and play many styles of game. Thats what is so bloody cool about the game. People then identify with the styles as and when they choose. To claim that someone is a 'FG player' reduces the person to the category and reduces the play style to the player.

This is a big mistake to make. What you maybe accidently do is attack a play style by trying to identify it with people who kill kittens. I am just wondering why you think it is a good thing to do.

Why it is bad for me is simply because you and others on these forums are sending out multiple attacks on a play style (FG play) and indicate that it is not welcome and you dislike people who associate with it because one or two people who were once in a FG were abusive to you. I see that has bad for the variety of the game and damaging to the options available to the people who play the game. Now you might not mean it like that but that is exactly what others are trying to tell you. Its up to you what you do with that information.

They are also a tosser (in my book) and I'll take issue with them for THAT reason. The fact I also refer to them as a "fg'er" is completely immaterial (I don't use the term itself as a form of abuse, unlike those who do so with "zerger" or "adder"). Someone who who just enjoys 8v8 and doesn't feel the need to abuse people is just not a problem and anyone who abuses them for not adding is a tosser (in my book) - and I've taken issue with those people before.

The contrary fact is that because you refer to them as a "FG-er" you are attacking a play style that many enjoy and no-one can grasp why you are doing that. It is almost like you misrepresent yourself and others at the same time. The crusade appears to be against a play style when in fact if I read closely I find that you do not oppose any playstyle. Now you might not be on a crusade - I said above it 'appears' like you are.

My so called campaign is to try and get you to realise that. Thats all Bracken.

I ain't berating you so I can in turn support the 'FG-ers' because I simply don't believe that you can say exactly who is and who is not a 'FG-er'. I am going after your attack on a play style.

Although I will admit I have kind of went out of my way to wind you up - for that I am sorry. Irony gets lost in writing. Is that any clearer?

with respect

Sharkith

 

[Bracken]

What I am telling you is that in fact simply because someone is in a FG when they hurl abuse by no means means they are a 'FG player'.

It has often been cited as justification by those who abuse people for "adding" on fg fights that they only play the game for fair 8v8 and that their whole reason for playing has been *ruined*. It's what they themselves say. If you don't agree that they are part of the dedicated fg community (i.e. "fg'ers") then take that up with them, not me.

The contrary fact is that because you refer to them as a "FG-er" you are attacking a play style that many enjoy and no-one can grasp why you are doing that. It is almost like you misrepresent yourself and others at the same time. The crusade appears to be against a play style when in fact if I read closely I find that you do not oppose any playstyle. Now you might not be on a crusade - I said above it 'appears' like you are.

I regularly make it clear that I'm talking about the attitude (I've stuck up for "fg'ers" in the past and got stick for that too) - anyone with common sense understands it. There will always be some people who confuse the issues but that's life, just like there will always be some buffoons who regard people who happen to prefer 8v8 as all being the spawn of satan no matter what is said or how precisely people are described.

 

[Castus]

Don`t be nasty to Bracken he1s only won 1 Euro cup

OT: seems quite clear to me he`s only 'attacking' the fg players who scream blue murder at you in game if you happen to attack someone in their fg fight.

 

[Sharkith]

It has often been cited as justification by those who abuse people for "adding" on fg fights that they only play the game for fair 8v8 and that their whole reason for playing has been *ruined*. It's what they themselves say. If you don't agree that they are part of the dedicated fg community (i.e. "fg'ers") then take that up with them, not me.

Nope - fg'ers, 'dedicated fg community' all of these concepts are unhelpful. We had a gaming community with people who had varying preferences for different styles of play. That is more accurate. The group that only ever log in to play FG RvR is so tiny it is not worth even trying to label and bag people by that name. Whatever - it is your choice to speak how you want to. At least I understand why you do it now.

I regularly make it clear that I'm talking about the attitude (I've stuck up for "fg'ers" in the past and got stick for that too) - anyone with common sense understands it. There will always be some people who confuse the issues but that's life, just like there will always be some buffoons who regard people who happen to prefer 8v8 as all being the spawn of satan no matter what is said or how precisely people are described.

I know you do this its why the first paragraph seems to be at odds with your approach. You would seem to act in exactly the same way I and many others would in game if they saw someone being abused. I know you basically see that side of things the same way. The only difference is I don't see the benefits of making claims about groups of people that strictly speaking do not have enough of a common identity to justify the label. I just dislike that kind of logic because it leads to stereotyping. Like I said above - no offence is intended.

 

[Erulin]

seems quite clear to me he`s only 'attacking' the fg players who scream blue murder at you in game if you happen to attack someone in their fg fight.

What he said.

 

[snoepie]

i thought this thread was about the current population and what will happen if it gets too low?

 

[Krait]

i thought this thread was about the current population and what will happen if it gets too low?

The bitching will just get even more personal.

 

[Conway]

i thought this thread was about the current population and what will happen if it gets too low?

I thought it was, and what will happen is first the game gets clustered into one multi language server and then it closes. For legal reasons it seems unlikely to be clusted with US servers.

To save the cluster it is the players who must work to develop a more friendly community and a more holistic in-game atmosphere, that is the only way it will survive. Chances are, people won't change and the numbers will continue to drop.

This is a perfectly good point.

Don`t be nasty to Bracken he1s only won 1 Euro cup

OT: seems quite clear to me he`s only 'attacking' the fg players who scream blue murder at you in game if you happen to attack someone in their fg fight.

I agree. Seemed clear to me to that his objection was to the aggression not to any particular playing style. The aggression is the problem. The only way playing style is involved imho is that some people label some styles as 'honourable' and 'dishonourable'. Those who enjoy flaming take that as justification for flaming 'dishonourable' players.

All I can see is that you and Bracken are constructing stories - we normally call them social fictions meaning they are stories made up after a couple of incidents to back up your argument. All of your stories carry no weight for me whatsoever. They are simply fiction of someone who was half pissed when they experienced a bit of abuse.

The aggressive attitude described by people is not a social fiction they are making up. You only have to look at this thread to see that. Somewhere in a folder of a zillion DAOC screenies, I have a beautiful example in a set of screen shots where someone had a go at me for 'adding' on his 1v1. In fact I hadn't done so. I got him to scroll up and see I hadn't. He did then apologise. Despite that the confrontation ruined an evening when I was having fun. Since he did apologise it would hardly be fair to post them and show him as an example of a tendency to leap into having a go at people. Unfair to pick any particular case really. The only reason I have evidence of this one is that he was GM of a sizeable rvr guild so I screen shotted it at the time in case I got follow up problems from it.

The sad thing about the aggression is the domino effect. I know I bit someone's head off when they sent me a message in game about adding. They meant it as a joke. Unfortunately, it happened just after something else and I thought it was another lot of aggro. It isn't always easy to tell tone of voice in a typed message. I apologised, but it don't really undo the damage. I've also said a friendly hello to someone in rvr only to get a frantic apology in case they had accidentally added on my group. People get aggressive and people get defensive.

Of course people can put up with aggro if they have to. But a game isn't a job. You can leave without worrying about how you pay the mortgage. You can find another game. How many people stay or leave because of a good or bad community spirit is up to debate unless GOA do an exit poll on why people cancel accounts. It may not be their sole reason, but its a factor for some at least. By definition you won't be able to ask that question here and get a representative response. Most people who left two or three months ago won't be reading this forum, some of them never read it, particularly if aggro isn't their choice of entertainment.

 

[Sharkith]

Nice post! I can see your reasoning and it all makes sense in fact I think I would do an think exactly the way you do Conway. If you read closer you will see that I think that bitching and abuse is a fact. What I do not believe is that it is any systematic 'single' and identifiable group of people doing it.

So I did take a forceful objection to the way people here post and claim that people are there who are hiding in a small internal community that protects them and allows them to be abusive. It leads to misunderstandings and you just need to be careful to be clear who your talking about.

The simplest thing to do with this kind of behaviour is immediately /ignore or tell those who have been getting abuse to rightnow it immediately. That makes more sense than coming to a public forum and attacking some miscellaneous group and causing more angst than is necessary. When you do that the in game bitcher wins tenfold.

You also alienate people who are there making an important contribution to the community. People have been trying to say here that they don't feel welcome because there is so much bitching at those who like to play FG rvr on a regular basis. As those numbers drop the options for the game experience drops and that is where the damage is done.

Its nice that the server is still going strong on other fronts of course!!

 

[Belisar]

Stuff.

Well put.

I objected to the use of the term "fg'ers" simply because it appeared to tar a lot of people with the same brush. I suspect many players have been subject to the pointless comments about adding although in my experience this comes as much from solo classes as from the fg's.

In fact I do know someone who pretty much gave up after firstly being abused for not helping a fellow realm stealther kill another when he/she was in a fight and lost and then 5 minutes later got abused for adding when a similar situation arose with someone else.

It does all come back to accepting other player styles and making an effort.

Sharky and others made a good attempt to get Agramon going for the fg's out there and if you accepted adding was possible in the rest of the frontiers and the zerg stayed away from Agramon then it worked to an extent. However even then there were pro's and con's, it was never ever going to be ideal for all but it could have provided some fun with some give and take.

Ah well from what people are saying then the action seems pretty good in places RvR wise so for those who are having fun I hope it continues for a long time.

 

[Dreami]

DAoC is hardly "dead" by any means. Almost 3k people on Avalon-Lyonesse on Friday at prime time seems dead to you?

 

[Zede]

Nice post! I can see your reasoning and it all makes sense in fact I think I would do an think exactly the way you do Conway. If you read closer you will see that I think that bitching and abuse is a fact. What I do not believe is that it is any systematic 'single' and identifiable group of people doing it.

So I did take a forceful objection to the way people here post and claim that people are there who are hiding in a small internal community that protects them and allows them to be abusive. It leads to misunderstandings and you just need to be careful to be clear who your talking about.

The simplest thing to do with this kind of behaviour is immediately /ignore or tell those who have been getting abuse to rightnow it immediately. That makes more sense than coming to a public forum and attacking some miscellaneous group and causing more angst than is necessary. When you do that the in game bitcher wins tenfold.

You also alienate people who are there making an important contribution to the community. People have been trying to say here that they don't feel welcome because there is so much bitching at those who like to play FG rvr on a regular basis. As those numbers drop the options for the game experience drops and that is where the damage is done.

Its nice that the server is still going strong on other fronts of course!!

Well put. I hope some people here can now understand more clearly.

 

[Muylaetrix]

tbh,

last week has proved great fun (ingame) and i really enjoyed it when i was able to participate.

dead server,

/ponder.

last night, albs might have gotten their arses kicked (with me as BG leader !!! <cough> i suck <cough>) on most big fights against the mids... seems i have to be happy with reopenig boldiam, preventing hibs from gaining port and taking port from mids (i can`t even take credit for the last, i went for booz)...

i enjoyed it.

personal stuff kept me away from the game pretty much over the last week and a bit...

now give a bit more hibs to kill <wtf, they usually kill us ?!?> and we are all happy.

i am drunk,

yeah,

once more,

my dad died last week,

fuck off or live (?!?) with it.

 

[Asha]

very sorry to hear that

 

[Tallen]

tbh,

last week has proved great fun (ingame) and i really enjoyed it when i was able to participate.

dead server,

/ponder.

last night, albs might have gotten their arses kicked (with me as BG leader !!! <cough> i suck <cough>) on most big fights against the mids... seems i have to be happy with reopenig boldiam, preventing hibs from gaining port and taking port from mids (i can`t even take credit for the last, i went for booz)...

i enjoyed it.

personal stuff kept me away from the game pretty much over the last week and a bit...

now give a bit more hibs to kill <wtf, they usually kill us ?!?> and we are all happy.

i am drunk,

yeah,

once more,

my dad died last week,

fuck off or live (?!?) with it.

Sorry to hear about your father

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Muylaetrix, sorry to hear about your loss.

The server is dead as it is in comparison to Avalon/Lyonesse with its 3k players and has a severe limitation of possible playstyles and the action is limited to evenings. The server needs some love from GoA, better sooner than later.

 

[Muylaetrix]

The server is dead as it is in comparison to Avalon/Lyonesse with its 3k players and has a severe limitation of possible playstyles and the action is limited to evenings. The server needs some love from GoA, better sooner than later.

player numbers are not what they used to be, true.
prime time is shorter than it used to be, true.

Love from GOA ? like what ? what options are there ? cluster us with the italian and spanish server ? cluster with a german or french server ??

tbh, i would be happy if those DAMN PREPAID CARDS were actually for sale (i live in belgium).

the number of young players has dropped significantly over the years (some might find that a good thing, i don`t). i can`t remember how many young and promising people i have helped level to 50, helped with artes and ml`s, just to see em drop out of the game at the end of the fi9rst month because they donb`t have access to credit card.

if the damn prepaid cards actually existed (i have seen no proof yet they are more than a hoax (ironnic remark, ok)) i would have bought one for xmas for every mate i have who ever played this damn game (and for some who haven`t).

 

[Sharkith]

Sorry for your trouble Muyl :/

 

[Soulja_IA_]

player numbers are not what they used to be, true.
prime time is shorter than it used to be, true.

Got nothing to do with pre paid cards Muy the player shortage is down because some gone over to Avalon server and some gone to US servers nothing to do with new players coming into game infact guild I am in on hib have had plenty new comers in past month and it been great helping etc felt like old times.

This shortage of players have been discussed on here for months now and reason why most of left was down to way Excal/Pryd server was being played by useless AC'ing and stupid early morning keep taking which to the ones who left felt that if that is how server was being played made it unpractical for they play styles wether 1 v 1 or Fg v FG etc.

Muyl condolensences on you loss especially at this time of year.

Soulja (Blows favourite Poster)

 

[Muylaetrix]

Got nothing to do with pre paid cards Muy the player shortage is down because some gone over to Avalon server and some gone to US servers nothing to do with new players coming into game infact guild I am in on hib have had plenty new comers in past month and it been great helping etc felt like old times.

ofc it is not THE reason, but it is A reason. And i think most people who have played with me will find me one of the more suportive persons towards `newbs` in the game.

Every decent (sized) guild should make a point of recruiting 1 new player every month. that would make maybe 50% of all players continue after their first month as opposed to (just a rough guess here on my part) the 5-10% that stick to the game now.

But most people don`t seem to be able to cope with the frustration of helping newbies and then see them bugger of. most people in that case feel like they wasted a lot of precious at that time.

DAOC is NOT a friendly environment for new players.

 

[Soulja_IA_]

ofc it is not THE reason, but it is A reason. And i think most people who have played with me will find me one of the more suportive persons towards `newbs` in the game.

Every decent (sized) guild should make a point of recruiting 1 new player every month. that would make maybe 50% of all players continue after their first month as opposed to (just a rough guess here on my part) the 5-10% that stick to the game now.

But most people don`t seem to be able to cope with the frustration of helping newbies and then see them bugger of. most people in that case feel like they wasted a lot of precious at that time.

DAOC is NOT a friendly environment for new players.

I Agree Muyl and I for one will always help a new person being it with money/items etc amount of plats I given away to new players must be mounting lol.

But e.g you started life out on Hib as new player and you see population of the realm they chosen and look carefully how active realm Hib is especially at this time they be very dissappointed especially when now reaching High level and sees lack of ML lately / Arti Raids etc and thinks why did I bother.Then if they go out RvR at low RR you looking for say a mass RvR night looking for Rp's or bridge camping etc and find that whenever action is taken like taking keeps by other Realms is done early morning or any Relic raid is done early morning then the joy of playing you character diminshes.

What Excal/Pryd needs for new players and for Old to return is to put all posts that been made by leaving players and players who stayed loyal to Excal/Pryd and try and figure out from them how All 3 Realms can make this server more playable for the masses.

Keep takes at primetime are good for population wether they 8 v 8 player or 1 v 1 player this gets all realm involved and not miss out on the fun,but when these raids are done without majority of server being online and tbh only appeases 1 Realm who stay in that keep defending then as they in a stronger position from a defenders attitude it gets boring being the attacker.Same old shit night after night no incentive as it same old thing. (My personal opinion this btw).

There much more that can be added not by my self but by others who believe they can add into getting servers numbers up on here.

 

[Darzil]

Got nothing to do with pre paid cards Muy the player shortage is down because some gone over to Avalon server and some gone to US servers nothing to do with new players coming into game infact guild I am in on hib have had plenty new comers in past month and it been great helping etc felt like old times.

This shortage of players have been discussed on here for months now and reason why most of left was down to way Excal/Pryd server was being played by useless AC'ing and stupid early morning keep taking which to the ones who left felt that if that is how server was being played made it unpractical for they play styles wether 1 v 1 or Fg v FG etc.

Were it not for the huge crash in numbers since I joined the game just over 4 years ago, I'd agree. The recent crisis is that lots jumped ship to Avalon or US over this (or other issues) when the population was ALREADY at a very low level.

Darzil

 

[Gamah]

The Avalon and US jumpers happened because of the doorstep zergers and rp whores. Make no mistake it was the playerbase that killed the playerbase.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Aye aye, and if my aunt would have a penis she'd be my uncle.

 

[Darkmack]

Love from GOA ? like what ? what options are there ? cluster us with the italian and spanish server ? cluster with a german or french server ??

tbh, i would be happy if those DAMN PREPAID CARDS were actually for sale (i live in belgium).

the number of young players has dropped significantly over the years (some might find that a good thing, i don`t). i can`t remember how many young and promising people i have helped level to 50, helped with artes and ml`s, just to see em drop out of the game at the end of the fi9rst month because they donb`t have access to credit card.

if the damn prepaid cards actually existed (i have seen no proof yet they are more than a hoax (ironnic remark, ok)) i would have bought one for xmas for every mate i have who ever played this damn game (and for some who haven`t).

tbh that is true to an extent to me as a student aswell. I often have cash from overdrafts and loans but cannot pay with my card over the internet due to the simple fact that I'm overdrawn. Pre-paid cards would of helped me many a time even now I cant reactivate my EU account since im overdrawn on my card ^-^

and the only reason im playing any account is because it got paid for and i transfered money to someone through paypal ;\

 

[Castus]

The Avalon and US jumpers happened because of the doorstep zergers and rp whores. Make no mistake it was the playerbase that killed the playerbase.

Well all the guilds i know who left to go to the Land of the free( burgers) SH etc was due to the SOTG saga and nothing to do with rp 'whores'(assume u mean VF etc.......) and Doorstep zergers ( censi?......) so i guess your kinda wrong.When were u last in daoc btw?

 

[Sharkith]

Aye aye, and if my aunt would have a penis she'd be my uncle.

and you would be related to GOA too who apparently think there is nothing wrong at the moment because all who left were like 1% of the playerbase.....

Seriously Requiel and the gang are like posting from the far out legion or smgt... all is well and there is nothing wrong and shit like that.

This does not mean the server is alive or that there is not some good action of a particular kind!! It means that the server is becoming more and more unidimensional - thats a fact not even GOA can deny. What is more important they cannot even comment on if that is a good fact or not, all because well is it or is it not SoTG? It is starting to look like a loss of perspective. A loss of the game, maybe even the SoTG bit itself in the arse?

Everyone knows that a loss of options is not something baby Jesus lubs.