Crush or Slash?

[case-rigantis]

i`m fully aware of teh upcomig changes to Crush but was wondering for a sword and shield pally would it be worth re speccing to crush?

the reason i ask is that my friend has just started a 2 weapon crush merc and teh damage even from 1 weapon is far in excess of anything that an equal level slasher seems to do

was wondering would this be teh same for a level 50 pally?

 

[Gef]

I think the new armor tables pretty much balance out the 3 damage types? I may be wrong ..

 

[old.The McScrooges]

Remember you need to compare the DPS and Speed of the weapons used. Crush is more damaging but it is generally slower.

Then there is the styles, I prefer the Slash styles myself. Slash seems to be more user friendly, nice combos early on that can be used anytime.

And aren't Mercs and Paladins on different damage tables?

 

[Danya]

Mercs are on the fighter table, Paladins are on the hybrid table, so a Merc will in general outdamage a paladin of equal level / skill.

 

[Solid]

Only 2 things u should base ur damage type on is:

1. What damage are the otehr 2 realms main populous resistant/neutral/vulnerable to (main emphasis on the targets u plan to attack most)

2. What styles seem to complement your spec (ie a Shield spec class would need a style set that complements shield aka blocks)

Quit info:

All Midgard Armour is neutral to crush
All Albion Armour is neutral to slash
All Hibernia Armour is neutral to thrust

5/8 mid classes vulnerable to thrust and resistant to slash
dunno bout the other realms classes

 

[old.Eynar_Vega]

Here's a part from the 1.52 release notes from the camelotherald:

NEW ARMOR TABLES

We have changed the armor tables for the game. Armor tables are the game's mechanism for determining how vulnerable/resistant a specific damage type (i.e. slash, crush, etc.) against a particular armor. Previously, the armor tables worked in such a manner that it was advantageous for melee characters to specialize only in crushing/blunt/hammer weapons. Now, the armor tables are spread out more evenly, giving all armor advantages and disadvantages against every weapon type.

We've added specific armor tables for Norse Chain, Norse Leather, Norse Studded, and Hibernian Leather to spread out the damage options. This means that now every Realm has a specific set of damage tables.

I'm sure they've spread out the armor vulnerabilities across all realms evenly, but offcourse they didn't look at each realm's physical dmg options first. An example: in Midgard only spears do thrust dmg (Mid arrows do slash dmg for some mysterious reason). This means that only hunters can do thrust dmg, and since hunters only represent a very small % off possible opponents (especially melee), the vulnerability of some Hib/Alb armor types to thrust dmg has only very little influence... This is only an example, I'm sure similar issues apply for Hib & Alb possibilities.

 

[old.Eynar_Vega]

Update: just ran into these new tables :

Weapon effectiveness table (v 1.52f)

This pretty much says it all

 

[SoulFly Amarok]

play crush till 40, then respec to slash, you will get a few additional points because you will autotrain slash ;D

 

[j000 d000d]

If you respec, you get all your autotrains automatically

 

[Sarnat]

Originally posted by Dannyn
Mercs are on the fighter table, Paladins are on the hybrid table, so a Merc will in general outdamage a paladin of equal level / skill.

What fecking fighter table? What fecking hybrid table?

 

[old.willowywicca]

Originally posted by Sarnat


What fecking fighter table? What fecking hybrid table?

also on this subject, what exactly is *really* the point of the different armour types for classes? the different dmg tables that they are on are really what decides both how much dmg they do and take (I'll hit a thane in chain for 160 without style, hit a warrior in chain for 100, when they both have the same resists).

And it's quite unfair that a pure tank speced the same melee as a hybrid will do a lot more dmg per hit.

personnally I don't see the point of having the different absorb armours and having the dmg tables also. One or the other.. as it is dmg tables pretty much over ride any affect of the armours (as far as I can see) the only thing the different armour types really add is that different classes will have different resistances/vulnerabilities to diff dmg types.

 

[Brannor McThife]

Originally posted by old.willowywicca
And it's quite unfair that a pure tank speced the same melee as a hybrid will do a lot more dmg per hit.

Gotta disagree here Mal. Pure tanks are hand-to-hand experts. Heros don't get debuffs and a DD like Champions.
Warriors don't get any self buffs like thanes, or chants like Skalds.
Armsmen don't get chants like paladins.

Pure melee, is just that. An absolute focus on taking and dealing damage, if Hybrids dealt (and took) the same damage as pure tanks, what exactly would be the point of pure tanks?

-G

 

[Solid]

omg Sarnat, I thought u were well accustomed to game mechanics u N00b!!

all Pure Melee (all 6 in the 3 realms) are on the melee damage table, ie equally raced, specced and statted warrior and thane would do diff damage, the warrior hitting harder.

I only know of 2 damage tables for melee btw, pure melee and hybrid. SB, Minstrels and Rangers and their ilk all fall into the Hybrid damage table.

Armour absorbs DOES make a difference, higher the absorb, higher the effective AF of that armour piece.

Quite HOW AF reduces damage noone knows properly.

I would have to agree with Brannor on the Pure Tank damage table being reserved exclusively for pure tanks, they are supposed to be the best meleer of the realm and quite rightly deserve their own damage table.

Just note its not as cut and dry as damage tables, race, spec, stats, items all play a significant part in damage and so a 50 Weapon/46 Stormcalling Troll Thane will obviously outdamage a 50 Shield 44 Weapon Kobold warrior.

 

[Brannor McThife]

...and a 50 Axe spec'd troll with capped str using a 1-H 99% crafted axe is going hit harder than a hybrid using a 2-H hammer against a 26% resist to crush.

/flex



I must say, that with my slash and crush both capped at 26% resist (thrust a little further behind ), I find that a lot of Albs and Hibs do significantly less damage to me than I do to them. Sometimes it's not such a bad thing being a pure tank.

<shrug>

-G

 

[Solid]

Brannor do me a favour

Get a 99%+ Arcanium 16.2dps 2H axe and go whack a level 1 Mob with Havoc, wanna see the damage, also try find a grey mob than can survive at least 1 hit so you can try Tyrs Fury out.

I wanan know what your melee cap is, also post your Str and Qui at the time and the stats of the weapon

Iff possible do this buffed as well (try find a decent specc Aug Shaman - no Twiz wont do)

 

[Brannor McThife]

Originally posted by Solid
Brannor do me a favour

Get a 99%+ Arcanium 16.2dps 2H axe and go whack a level 1 Mob with Havoc, wanna see the damage, also try find a grey mob than can survive at least 1 hit so you can try Tyrs Fury out.

I wanan know what your melee cap is, also post your Str and Qui at the time and the stats of the weapon

Iff possible do this buffed as well (try find a decent specc Aug Shaman - no Twiz wont do)

Heh...yeah...Twiz...gimp-o-mezzer.

I know that the other night, I hit one of those Hibernian Waylayers (grey, so I'd say L34 or so?) for 586 and 684 with Havoc and Tyr's Fury, unbuffed and using a prince-dropped 94% 2-H axe. If you want, arrange a buffer, and I'll test all kinds of weapons/damage for you. But I haven't got round to getting Hellskor to craft me a 2-H yet...need to check the price. Maybe it's time to bug him again.

My standard quickness sucks. I'm a troll FFS.

-G

 

[old.mattshanes]

Case i like crush styles thats why i choose it,to be different too,doing great damage and working well.

 

[the_smurflord]

Originally posted by old.mattshanes
Case i like crush styles thats why i choose it,to be different too,doing great damage and working well.

Of course that fact that Matt isn't allowed sharp objects yet is neither here nor there.

 

[The Real Redi]

<has vision of a dirty great sword with a cork stuck on the end>

Ruprecht! no Ruprecht, no!

 

[old.willowywicca]

Originally posted by Solid

Iff possible do this buffed as well (try find a decent specc Aug Shaman - no Twiz wont do)

Being buffed doesn't affect my dmg caps at all.. am I bugged? it does however seem to make me hit for a bit more in rvr.

 

[old.willowywicca]

regarding my reasoning behind saying that say a champ and hero both with LW at 50 and both with the same stats/items should hit for the same approx dmg per hit....

well to me, it seems pure tanks get more in other forms instead.. a hero gets higher hits (<-- this is what should make him last longer, not invisible dmg tables) they get better ranged ability (shortbows > a single DD every 15 secs), and they get Celtic Spears, a specialist weapon, which does more dmg than LW does.

In return for lower hits a champ gets debuffs, to lower enemies to near his own abilities, worse ranged ability, and the ability to only spec LW, and not CS.

In alb it is similar, with armsmen getting polearms, higher hits, crossbows (they can even spec if they want to!!). Whilst paladins sacrifice better hits and crossbows and polears for having their chants.

In mid, it is a tad unfairer, as warriors don't get any special weapon afaik, but still get thrown weapons (sucks apparently) and higher hits. thanes get better ranged (sort of, ability to break mez isn't necesarrily "better") cos of their aoe spells, but have lower hits. So yes, the warrior class does need some work maybe


However, my point is, there is a lot to differentiate the pure tanks and hybrids, with many options open to pure tanks that aren't to hybrids ( a hero can spec LW 50 and get shield to 42 for slam, a champ can't do that without giving up his valor which is what makes a champ a champ). And so if they choose to be specced same as a hybrid, why should they then get even better dmg for no reason (and take less per hit too)..

I may not have phrased this perfectly, but I hope my general meaning comes across clearly...

Mal

 

[old.The McScrooges]

Originally posted by The Real Redi
<has vision of a dirty great sword with a cork stuck on the end>

Ruprecht! no Ruprecht, no!

Hehe that film was funny.

 

[Meatballs]

Originally posted by old.Teador
If you respec, you get all your autotrains automatically

no you dont, you get it brought up to the minimum level (12 at level50) but lose the points:

"Why? Well, if a player autotrained, the points he had were “free” – and to prevent abuse of the system, those free points must be assigned to the line from which they came. However, code is an if/then, either/or kind of thing, and the game cannot tell if the training you did at level whatever was the result of an autotrain or a choice on your part. So the points are automatically deducted.

A player who autotrained, and accepted the fact that he was going to be gimped just to get that handful of extra points, has more points total than a player who did not autotrain. It’s a severe tradeoff for very little reward, but the reward does exist. "

Edit: well thats my interpretation of the last thing i seen about it

 

[Danya]

Originally posted by Solid
I only know of 2 damage tables for melee btw, pure melee and hybrid. SB, Minstrels and Rangers and their ilk all fall into the Hybrid damage table.

There are at least 4 afaik:
Fighter (for pure melees)
Hybrid (for hybrid melee and rogues)
Healer (for healing classes)
Caster (for stick wavers)
They fall roughly in that order of damage dealing.

 

[Solid]

guess i shoulda said only 2 that count

 

[Graknak]

Well its kinda easy what to choose with the 1.52 table:
Thrust, if you plan on killing alot of Mid main tanks,
Slash, if you plan on killing alot of Hib main tanks,
Crush, if you plan on killing tincans and most hybrid classes of all realms.

My conclusion is that crush still is the best even though they tried to nerf it (sure hope no-one of Mythic reads this, otherwise you can blame me if they nerf crush after the nerf )

Greets Cuth, Grak, Ari, Xar, etc. etc.

 

[Brannor McThife]

I have, for a long time now, been considerring respec'ing to crush with my warrior. And even with the apparent nerf, I also agree that crush is still THE choice for Midgard fighters. Of course, I'll have to research the styles, etc. first.

-G

 

[Solid]

Actually Brannor you will find Axe is the best weapon choiuce for warriors hamds down.

Havoc-Tyr's Fury is the best all round style combo available.
Slash gets bonus on scale, neutral to all albs
Crush gets bonus on tincans penalty on scale

If you were to respec to crush I wouldnt bother going 50 crush as the 50 style is wanker than wank: Penalty to defence, no tohit bonus and broken neffect combined with poor damage and being 3rd style of a block combo. Trust me I have that style, I have NEVER used it in RvR and dont bother using it in PvE

 

[Brannor McThife]

Ah. Good. Someone did my research for me.

Yes, I actually do get to use Havoc/Fury in RvR quite a bit...silly tincan's using /stick means all I do is back away and havoc/fury till they're dead...

-G

 

[old.willowywicca]

Yes stick with axe, havoc/tyr's fury is far better than anything a hammer user has ever used against me (even a warior troll like yerself).