Politics Coronavirus

[Yoni]

WTF has my residency got to do with this? what a ridiculous thing to say.

I'm stating some pretty basic facts that @Bodhi mostly refutes, so I'm keen to see where I've got it wrong.

Read back in the thread all the explanations of Sweden are clearly stated I am not going to repeat myself over and over again....

 

[Yoni]

Do you live in the UK .... no you do not so please do not lecture someone who does.

I rarely criticise what is going on in the UK.... read back Raven read back?

 

[SilverHood]

I swear you lot would have an argument over which way a piece of plain A4 should go into a printer if you felt the need.

A4 would jam my printer no matter which way you put it in, we don't use that format here in Yankeeland.

 

[MYstIC G]

I swear you lot would have an argument over which way a piece of plain A4 should go into a printer if you felt the need.

That would be more interesting at this point tbh

 

[Tay]

Read back in the thread all the explanations of Sweden are clearly stated I am not going to repeat myself over and over again....

I rarely criticise what is going on in the UK.... read back Raven read back?

And as I said I stated facts, you might not like them but thats what they are, but I'm sure @Bodhi will put me right soon with the 'facts' as it seems I was almost completely wrong. I really dont care what you have said previously. You effectively told me to wind my neck in because I didnt live in Sweden.

I wasn't critical of Sweden in the slightest, at no point did I criticise your govt over the death count there. Something which you have commented on previously regarding the UK's count.

But I wont labour the double standards point.

We can agree to disagree

 

[Ormorof]

I swear you lot would have an argument over which way a piece of plain A4 should go into a printer if you felt the need.

Printing seems wasteful to environment, use PDFs!

 

[Ormorof]

Seems me and family have the British Corona, i guess some things are still being exported without friction after brexit

 

[Scouse]

Seems me and family have the British Corona, i guess some things are still being exported without friction after brexit

Fingers crossed all is OK m8.

Spoke to a mate from Uni last night. His wife picked it up from kids in school before christmas. She's now suffering from some neuropathy - she can't feel her feet or lower legs and her hands are really numb.

I don't know about the mental health effects of lockdown but physical and memtal health affects of the thousands who've survived covid aren't to be dismissed.

 

[Bodhi]

One of the MAIN reasons Sweden didn't lockdown is due to the fact they (or rather several vocal experts such as Anders Tegnel) decided that herd immunity was the way to go. Little to no thought was given to the private care homes where many of your deaths happened.

However one of the reasons the lack of lockdowns 'partially' worked there is due to the 'general' conformity to the rules by its people, we don't have the same adherence to rules/laws let alone basic guidelines in the UK. This is fairly apparent given our current situation.

I noticed that recently even Swedens strategy is changing, partial lockdowns, face masks etc etc

OK, just off the top of my head:

- Herd Immunity was never a "strategy" in Sweden, which Tegnell and Gisecke have clarified in multiple interviews since this all started - their strategy was to look at Public Health as a whole and try to keep as much of the country running as possible, whilst ensuring the peaks stayed somewhere below the available health care capacity. Other than a couple of concerns in December, they seem to have done that pretty well.

- Also, saying "Herd Immunity" is a strategy for ending a pandemic is like saying "Gravity" is a strategy for landing a plane, as there's just a little bit more to it than that. Herd Immunity is how all pandemics have ended since the beginning of time, what's being discussed is how we get there, whilst hopefully ignoring the idiots who suggest it can be eradicated.

- Lots of thought was given to care homes in Sweden, and that is the one area where we can say they failed - like every other Western Nation just about. Sweden's move to big commerical care homes has come back to bite them there, and is more than likely to be the reason why Sweden got so badly hit compared to their neighbours - well that and the fact Sweden is a very different country in outlook to Norway and Finland anyway.

- If UK adherance to guidelines was so terrible, we wouldn't be on our third lockdown now where infections peaked several days before we locked down.

- And as Yoni mentions, the Swedish strategy hasn't changed at all, other than a limit of 4 on groups in bars and restaurants.

So pretty much all wrong. I was going to suggest at least you got Tegnell's name right, but doesn't even look like you managed that. Must try harder.

 

[Bodhi]

Fingers crossed all is OK m8.

Spoke to a mate from Uni last night. His wife picked it up from kids in school before christmas. She's now suffering from some neuropathy - she can't feel her feet or lower legs and her hands are really numb.

I don't know about the mental health effects of lockdown but physical and memtal health affects of the thousands who've survived covid aren't to be dismissed.

I had that for a while after I had it - cleared up after a couple of months, was no biggie in the end.

First part of your last sentence is bob on though

 

[Bodhi]

Oh and just to go for the TRIPEL POST SPECTACKULA!

For those wanting to see the effects of the vaccine start to show up in the numbers, take a look at the below analysis from Howden, Heneghan et al

Recent falls in age-specific estimates of the case fatality ratio in England | The Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine

www.cebm.net

Few caveats, but looks like the magic is happening.

 

[Scouse]

I had that for a while after I had it - cleared up after a couple of months, was no biggie in the end.

Glad you're alright, Jack. I know people who's post-covid symptoms are 9 months in and counting.

First part of your last sentence is bob on though

The whole sentence is good. Both physical and mental tolls of being a covid survivor are just as important as the purely mental tolls of lockdown. And as the people worst affected by lockdowns are those who were already struggling then Covid is introducing a whole huge raft of people who previously were perfectly fine to shit-town.



Edit: Who the eff is that in your new pic?

 

[Bodhi]

Glad you're alright, Jack. I know people who's post-covid symptoms are 9 months in and counting.

The whole sentence is good. Both physical and mental tolls of being a covid survivor are just as important as the purely mental tolls of lockdown. And as the people worst affected by lockdowns are those who were already struggling then Covid is introducing a whole huge raft of people who previously were perfectly fine to shit-town.



Edit: Who the eff is that in your new pic?

Post Viral Fatigue Syndrome is not a new or unknown condition - I was in Ninewells Hospital for 3 days when I was 9 with Glandular Fever, and it took me 18 months to full recover from it. COVID was a walk in the park compared to that tbh, so we should be thankful it't not a Glandular Fever epidemic, that would be properly nasty.

However as ever, the plural of anecdote is not data, and assertions don't really cut the mustard these days. As it is Long COVID looks to be fairly overblown at this stage, and not anything we can't deal with.

As for my profile pic - I have no idea, just some random science dude I found on t'internet.

 

[Raven]

Long covid is not anecdotal.

 

[Scouse]

However as ever, the plural of anecdote is not data, and assertions don't really cut the mustard these days. As it is Long COVID looks to be fairly overblown at this stage, and not anything we can't deal with.

There you go again. "Follow the data" in sentence one followed by a dismissal of Long Covid in the second sentence.

I'm glad that the medical profession is taking it seriously and attempting more research in the area. They are extremely concerned - because the long covid symptoms dont appear to fit any one syndrome.

 

[Yoni]

As for my profile pic - I have no idea, just some random science dude I found on t'internet.

^^ oO lol

 

[Embattle]

So just had my injection at the local Leisure centre, some queuing but not too bad although it was mainly caused by people turning up early.

I also received a letter to book an appointment for a Covid vaccination, this of course isn't needed in my case as my GP practice has dealt with it.

 

[Bodhi]

Long covid is not anecdotal.

Where did I say it was? Other than when I gave the proper medical term for it of course.

 

[Scouse]

Where did I say it was? Other than when I gave the proper medical term for it of course.

Calling bullshit again. You're literally making shit up.

The BMJ has an article showing that Long Covid is made up of symptoms from least four different syndromes and that it doesn't particularly fit any of them exactly.

I know dismissing it as "Post Viral Fatigue Syndrome" fits your idiotic narrative that lockdowns are the things killing and harming people rather than the deadly global virus but you're failing with your own measure of following the science/data.

 

[Bodhi]

Calling bullshit again. You're literally making shit up.

The BMJ has an article showing that Long Covid is made up of symptoms from least four different syndromes and that it doesn't particularly fit any of them exactly.

I know dismissing it as "Post Viral Fatigue Syndrome" fits your idiotic narrative that lockdowns are the things killing and harming people rather than the deadly global virus but you're failing with your own measure of following the science/data.

Probably worth a chat with the Royal College of Occupational Therapists in that case, who have published guidance on how to deal with Post Viral Fatigue in the case of COVID:

How to manage post-viral fatigue after COVID-19 - RCOT

www.rcot.co.uk

Or if you'd prefer to go Private - and I can't say I'd blame you if you did - this can be done, with another company specifically calling it out as PVFS:

post viral fatigue & Covid-19 — Vitality360

Maybe we could ask the BMJ as you suggest?

NICE guideline on Long Covid fails to acknowledge important clinical and pathological overlaps with ME/CFS

www.bmj.com

A significant proportion also have clusters of symptoms including activity induced fatigue, myalgia, cognitive dysfunction, dysautonomia and orthostatic intolerance (7), disturbed thermoregulation, and post-exertional malaise/symptom exacerbation that are consistent with a post viral fatigue syndrome (PVFS) or even ME/CFS.

I'm guessing all those medical professionals are making it up too are they?

P.S Worth looking at the statement of competing interests on the article you posted - " We have read and understood BMJ policy on declaration of interests and declare the following interests: MS and colleagues developed the C19-YRS (Yorkshire Rehabilitation Scale) and are involved in delivering long covid care in the Leeds multidisciplinary long covid assessment and management service. "

 

[Scouse]

Yep. As research progresses a better picture is being built up.

Long covid could be four different syndromes, review suggests

Long covid, the name commonly used to explain lasting effects of covid-19, may actually be four different syndromes, according to a review by the National Institute for Health Research (NIHR).1 A team of researchers and doctors reviewed current evidence and interviewed post-hospitalised and...

www.bmj.com

First thing I thought of when I read @dysfunction's post is that you don't get venn diagrams. But then - you're offering "hard and fast" "it's fucking viral fatigue" answers when by your own admission you want to follow the data. And since the data isn't in, and there's a lot more research to be done, then all you're actually doing is cherry picking stuff that suits your narrative.

Again.

 

[Scouse]

Living with Covid19

A dynamic review of the evidence around ongoing Covid19 symptoms (often called Long Covid). Key Messages The novel coronavirus (Covid19) pandemic declared by the World Health Organisation in March 2020 has had far-reaching effects upon people’s lives, health care systems and wider society. As...

evidence.nihr.ac.uk

 

[Bodhi]

Living with Covid19

A dynamic review of the evidence around ongoing Covid19 symptoms (often called Long Covid). Key Messages The novel coronavirus (Covid19) pandemic declared by the World Health Organisation in March 2020 has had far-reaching effects upon people’s lives, health care systems and wider society. As...

evidence.nihr.ac.uk

From your article:

COVID-19 — The long road to recovery (October 2020). The concept of a viral disease leading to a post viral syndrome usually with chronic fatigue, is well recognized. In one study where patients were followed after having one of three viral diseases (Epstein Barr virus, Coxiella burnetti or Ross fever virus), 12% were found to have a specific syndrome for 6 or more months. Acute recurrences of the illness occurred in the first 3 months and chronic fluctuating symptoms included fatigue, cognitive disturbances, dysphoria, anxiety and pains in the muscles. This syndrome has also been termed myalgic encephalomyelitis.

So again, it is nothing new or scary that 1 in 10 people may take longer to recover, it has been a well observed phenomena over the years. Maybe one of the good outcomes of all this nonsense is that ME/CFS (where PVFS can end up) will get properly investigated and treated, however again, that is not specific to COVID.

 

[MYstIC G]

As for my profile pic - I have no idea, just some random science dude I found on t'internet.

t'internet sez it's Anders Tegnell 🤣

 

[Bodhi]

t'internet sez it's Anders Tegnell 🤣

To be fair I was going to go with Gisecke or Heneghan but that really would be going with random scientists no one recognises, so I broke everyone in easy with Tegnell. I might start rotating them

 

[caLLous]

 

[Yoni]

Yus! the area I live in is now down to 11 per 10000 with an infection - this is awesome news as we are in Feb and it is a similar level to last May / June (with the addtional testing)... sadly Skåne which was barely hit last year is and has had a terrible time since October ... it is declining now but still at 249/100k vs Stockhom which is 132/100k. It appearas that the most dense area in the country has and is fairing much much better than the less populated areas 2nd time around....

They are now warning of a 3rd wave due to idiots going on vacation in the country (sports week starts next week ..... last year everyone went to Italy and we saw what that brought... this year they are going to the mountains where the infection rates are higher... happy days)

Addtionally they are confirming that even with the issues over the vaccine they had planned for this and the original rollout still stands .... kudos for managing the populations expectations.

 

[Bodhi]

Yus! the area I live in is now down to 11 per 10000 with an infection - this is awesome news as we are in Feb and it is a similar level to last May / June (with the addtional testing)... sadly Skåne which was barely hit last year is and has had a terrible time since October ... it is declining now but still at 249/100k vs Stockhom which is 132/100k. It appearas that the most dense area in the country has and is fairing much much better than the less populated areas 2nd time around....

They are now warning of a 3rd wave due to idiots going on vacation in the country (sports week starts next week ..... last year everyone went to Italy and we saw what that brought... this year they are going to the mountains where the infection rates are higher... happy days)

Addtionally they are confirming that even with the issues over the vaccine they had planned for this and the original rollout still stands .... kudos for managing the populations expectations.

Checking ours we are at 126/100k, which is about where it's hovered since late December - we had our big wave during the November lockdown ironically enough, been very quiet since then. There was an outbreak in my Nan's nursing home a couple of weeks ago, but as everyone had their Pfizer vaccine there were only 2 cases, both asymptomatic. so looking good round here.

Interesting that you mention how the various regions are getting on within Sweden - from data I've seen there seems to be a large element of areas that got hit hard in March/April doing much better this time round, yet regions like Skane that were reasonably quiet last time have been hit fairly hard - to me that shows Tegnell got it mostly right, despite out of context quotes from the Swedish king. Although in the case of Skane it probably doesn't help having that big bridge for easy transport to Denmark, as they've been clobbered this time round. Would be interesting to see the comparitive infection rates between Skane and Copenhagen however.

Shame Sweden had the issues they did with nursing homes really, that's the only real black mark against the response that I can see from over here.

 

[Yoni]

The nursing homes was & is a fucking disaster... luckily most have had at least one vaccine now and are on the way to getting their second. Stockholm is fairing much better this time around in all areas including those that suffered a lot last year due to multigenerational housing. There are indications of recovery issues after CV19 however it does not seem to be as frequent as US or UK .... not stats on that topic from here I just do not see it in the papers or hear anyone talk about it that has had the disease

 

[Bodhi]

The nursing homes was & is a fucking disaster... luckily most have had at least one vaccine now and are on the way to getting their second. Stockholm is fairing much better this time around in all areas including those that suffered a lot last year due to multigenerational housing. There are indications of recovery issues after CV19 however it does not seem to be as frequent as US or UK .... not stats on that topic from here I just do not see it in the papers or hear anyone talk about it that has had the disease

They've been a disaster just about everywhere in all honesty - I can only hope that one of the outcomes of this is a decent conversation in how we care for our old and sick. My Nan's home have been absolute stars throughout this, refusing to take any patients from the NHS whatsoever so they don't seed infections, and each resident have their own room and sitting area, so fairly easy to isolate. It's taken it's toll on her mind, as she now has full blown dementia, but I think a few other nursing homes could take their lead. Could be because it's run by a convent rather than a corporation, but either way they've done well.

My friend from uni is legal counsel for a few nursing homes down South, and they haven't been anywhere near so lucky. All forced to take NHS patients in April without tests, most lost over 50% of residents. That to me is the real scandal, not failing to secure nursing homes, but sending patients back there from plague central - or hospitals as they are known - to infect all the residents. Think it's called "Doing a Cuomo", but either way, fucking appalling behaviour.