Politics Coronavirus

[Tay]

I keep bringing it up because people keep spouting this sort of apologist shit:
That statement was a direct management performance target.

Other countries with similar situations to ours have beaten that target and they had the same level of knowledge as us.

Knowledge of the virus wasn't important in hitting that target - good management action was the deciding factor.

So the Tories have failed against their own target - and you keep apologising for them. And will likely still vote for the same people who have proven themselves incompetent.

So I'm going to keep posting that message - because it's a message directed at people like you. People for whom that very simple penny still hasn't dropped.

I didn't vote for the tories but think this continual bashing is about as non productive as it comes, but if waving a daft number around gets you off, go for it.

 

[Tay]

If we did it that way more people would have died. So great plan. not
And the NHS would be in tatters

The NHS IS in tatters...

 

[BloodOmen]

The NHS IS in tatters...

No thanks to the tories... Labour didn't exactly help but The Conservatives were the final nail in the coffin so to speak. If there's anything Corona has shown this country, is that it cannot cope without the NHS, on that alone it should be funded for life.

 

[Tay]

No thanks to the tories... Labour didn't exactly help but The Conservatives were the final nail in the coffin so to speak. If there's anything Corona has shown this country, is that it cannot cope without the NHS, on that alone it should be funded for life.

Labour did fuck all during Brexit, they were beyond fucking useless, they sat on the fence and allowed brexit to happen, that caused the largest exodus of staff the NHS has ever seen. Thats one pretty big reason its on its arse, so - "Labour didn't exactly help" WTAF !

Because of that we've had these clowns in power, the alternative was that dithering cunt Corbyn which was unthinkable. Lib Dems well, where are they now?

So who in gods name do you think could be running this shit show now if not them?

Just my tuppenth worth..

 

[BloodOmen]

the NHS has ever seen. Thats one pretty big reas

Labour did fuck all during Brexit, they were beyond fucking useless, they sat on the fence and allowed brexit to happen, that caused the largest exodus of staff the NHS has ever seen. Thats one pretty big reason its on its arse, so - "Labour didn't exactly help" WTAF !

Because of that we've had these clowns in power, the alternative was that dithering cunt Corbyn which was unthinkable. Lib Dems well, where are they now?

So who in gods name do you think could be running this shit show now if not them?

Just my tuppenth worth..

I wasn't talking about during Brexit, I was talking about in general over the years. As for Corbyn's Labour, they couldn't do fuck all, more or less every tabloid was smearing Corbyn daily and the public gobbled it up. And let's not forget, it was The Tories that threw a referendum out there in the first place naively thinking the public would vote No... look how that turned out.

 

[Tay]

I wasn't talking about during Brexit, I was talking about in general over the years. As for Corbyn's Labour, they couldn't do fuck all, more or less every tabloid was smearing Corbyn daily and the public gobbled it up. And let's not forget, it was The Tories that threw a referendum out there in the first place naively thinking the public would vote No... look how that turned out.

How can you ignore the ineptitude of Labour during brexit as being a contributing factor for the shambles the NHS is in? tens of thousands of staff left because of brexit, the biggest issue the NHS has currently is lack of staff. Thats a pretty big fuck up right there.

As for the rags smearing Corbyn? he did a superb job without their help failing to stamp out the anti semitic situation they got them selves into for fear of offending his Hamas and Hezbolloh 'friends', or perhaps he was worried about his patronage of the Palestine solidarity campaign. Which particular bit of those did the rags smear him on? He made that party unelectable, and now we have fucktards like BoJo and Gove calling the shots.. fucking BoJo for gods sake.

As for the referendum, it was something that was part of the manifesto, hardly just "thrown out there" if he hadnt called one he would have been slated, he did and the rest is history.

There are all without exception useless, its the degree shitness that were voting for in British politics.

 

[BloodOmen]

How can you ignore the ineptitude of Labour during brexit as being a contributing factor for the shambles the NHS is in? tens of thousands of staff left because of brexit, the biggest issue the NHS has currently is lack of staff. Thats a pretty big fuck up right there.

As for the rags smearing Corbyn? he did a superb job without their help failing to stamp out the anti semitic situation they got them selves into for fear of offending his Hamas and Hezbolloh 'friends', or perhaps he was worried about his patronage of the Palestine solidarity campaign. Which particular bit of those did the rags smear him on? He made that party unelectable, and now we have fucktards like BoJo and Gove calling the shots.. fucking BoJo for gods sake.

As for the referendum, it was something that was part of the manifesto, hardly just "thrown out there" if he hadnt called one he would have been slated, he did and the rest is history.

There are all without exception useless, its the degree shitness that were voting for in British politics.

He's a pacifist, that's how pacifists refer to people, they abhor violence and conflict and rather solve things by sitting down with people. You can't really throw that out there while glossing over the fact the Conservatives have been selling weapons to Saudi which in turn has been in turn using them in Yemen.

The double standards are unreal when comparing Conservatives to Corbyn. As for Anti-semitism, blatant name-calling and using slurs like "Jew" and "Kike" is one thing, but opposing the idea of Israel's claim to keep murdering people for land being called "Anti-semitism" is bullshit. I think Israel gets way too much of a free pass these days with the atrocities they commit on a daily basis... I simply refer to a previous documentary by Loius Theroux to see the Mindset of Jewish settlers in the middle east.



View: https://vimeo.com/102569427


You can watch it there on Vimeo

 

[Raven]

Covid: EU's von der Leyen admits vaccine rollout failures

Ursula von der Leyen tells the Brussels Parliament "we're still not where we want to be".

www.bbc.co.uk

Resign.

 

[Bodhi]

Interestingly though @Raven - this "tsunami of mental health problems" people like @Bodhi keep harping on about in order to justify removing lockdowns don't really appear to be materialising in the way you'd expect when you look at actual long-term data.



Apparently this is because of a (well known and researched) phenomenon that shared trauma creates a shared sense of identity that helps people cope. (Individual trauma, like rape, is devestating).



They go further in the article - to demonstrate where government help should be directed post pandemic. To those with pre-existing mental health conditions, to people who've had the virus and general economic help.

In the meantime, lockdowns have clearly stopped shitloads of "post traumatic stress" being experienced by people who lose family members. Unfortunately, because of the Tories, not enough people have been spared that shitness though

Wow. Utterly tone deaf as usual, and great use of a study that doesn't actually seem to have any basis in reality. However it doesn't appear to just be me that's concerned about the direction of travel in mental health:

There's MIND, who in January noticed an additional 5,000 website hits per day.

Lockdown is creating mental illness pandemic, experts warn

There's the Prince's Trust who have conducted a survey that found 1 in 4 16-25 year olds now feel "unable to cope with life".

One in four young people ‘unable to cope with life’ since start of Covid pandemic

Half of 16 to 25-year-olds said their mental health has worsened since the start of coronavirus crisis, research from The Prince’s Trust shows

www.independent.co.uk

Suicide Prevention Bristol have seen a 300% increase in volume of calls - three hundred percent.

Covid: Surge in calls to Bristol suicide prevention charity

A suicide prevention charity has had a 300% increase in calls since the start of the pandemic.

www.bbc.co.uk

That's just from 5 minutes on Google, without even going near the multiple studies that have shown deterioration nationwide since March 2020. I'm sorry, but to say there isn't an issue, when people on this very forum have told you they are struggling, is actually full blown denialism, and shows an appalling lack of empathy. Lockdown may be quite comfortable for you living off the land in a hut in North Wales hiring and firing in the city like a proper Johnny Big Bollocks - hell it's even reasonably comfortable here in a 3 bed Town House in Stafford - but I can guarantee if you lived alone, had been furloughed since March and were stuck in a bedsit you would be very aware of all the problems with lockdown. I mean imagine bringing kids up in a flat in London, knowing that if you take them to the park there's every likelihood some screaming Morgan will call you a covidiot for having a coffee whilst you are out.

Fucking hell, talk about I'm alright jack.

 

[Tay]

He's a pacifist, that's how pacifists refer to people, they abhor violence and conflict and rather solve things by sitting down with people. You can't really throw that out there while glossing over the fact the Conservatives have been selling weapons to Saudi which in turn has been in turn using them in Yemen.

The double standards are unreal when comparing Conservatives to Corbyn. As for Anti-semitism, blatant name-calling and using slurs like "Jew" and "Kike" is one thing, but opposing the idea of Israel's claim to keep murdering people for land being called "Anti-semitism" is bullshit. I think Israel gets way too much of a free pass these days with the atrocities they commit on a daily basis... I simply refer to a previous documentary by Loius Theroux to see the Mindset of Jewish settlers in the middle east.



View: https://vimeo.com/102569427


You can watch it there on Vimeo

Perhaps I'd have had more time for him if he hadn't met with extremists then conveniently forgot about those meetings. Some PM he would have made. The man was and is utterly useless, pacifist or otherwise.

I repeat once again, they are all as bad as each other, without exception.

Feel free to respond to the point about Corbyn's Labour sitting on the fence that ultimately allowed Brexit to happen and the demise of the NHS when what we needed was a united front. You're the one that made the flippant remark about tories fucking it up.

 

[Tay]

Wow. Utterly tone deaf as usual, and great use of a study that doesn't actually seem to have any basis in reality. However it doesn't appear to just be me that's concerned about the direction of travel in mental health:

There's MIND, who in January noticed an additional 5,000 website hits per day.

Lockdown is creating mental illness pandemic, experts warn

There's the Prince's Trust who have conducted a survey that found 1 in 4 16-25 year olds now feel "unable to cope with life".

One in four young people ‘unable to cope with life’ since start of Covid pandemic

Half of 16 to 25-year-olds said their mental health has worsened since the start of coronavirus crisis, research from The Prince’s Trust shows

www.independent.co.uk

Suicide Prevention Bristol have seen a 300% increase in volume of calls - three hundred percent.

Covid: Surge in calls to Bristol suicide prevention charity

A suicide prevention charity has had a 300% increase in calls since the start of the pandemic.

www.bbc.co.uk

That's just from 5 minutes on Google, without even going near the multiple studies that have shown deterioration nationwide since March 2020. I'm sorry, but to say there isn't an issue, when people on this very forum have told you they are struggling, is actually full blown denialism, and shows an appalling lack of empathy. Lockdown may be quite comfortable for you living off the land in a hut in North Wales hiring and firing in the city like a proper Johnny Big Bollocks - hell it's even reasonably comfortable here in a 3 bed Town House in Stafford - but I can guarantee if you lived alone, had been furloughed since March and were stuck in a bedsit you would be very aware of all the problems with lockdown. I mean imagine bringing kids up in a flat in London, knowing that if you take them to the park there's every likelihood some screaming Morgan will call you a covidiot for having a coffee whilst you are out.

Fucking hell, talk about I'm alright jack.

Sad state of affairs all around me thinks.

There is way more to this than just higher numbers solely due to the pandemic. This has been coming on for a while, those issues need to be understood and addressed, it cant all be pinned on the pandemic, to do so would be totally irresponsible, its clearly a factor, but not the only one.

Suicides rates were at an all time low in 2017 and for a couple of decades going back, but in 2019 the rates started spiking again, no covid or lockdowns around then, much more research is needed to understand why and we need to stop using lockdowns as the only reason.

 

[Moriath]

He's a pacifist, that's how pacifists refer to people, they abhor violence and conflict and rather solve things by sitting down with people. You can't really throw that out there while glossing over the fact the Conservatives have been selling weapons to Saudi which in turn has been in turn using them in Yemen.

The double standards are unreal when comparing Conservatives to Corbyn. As for Anti-semitism, blatant name-calling and using slurs like "Jew" and "Kike" is one thing, but opposing the idea of Israel's claim to keep murdering people for land being called "Anti-semitism" is bullshit. I think Israel gets way too much of a free pass these days with the atrocities they commit on a daily basis... I simply refer to a previous documentary by Loius Theroux to see the Mindset of Jewish settlers in the middle east.



View: https://vimeo.com/102569427


You can watch it there on Vimeo

So for the decade between 1997 and 2007 we sold no weapons to the saudis?

 

[Moriath]

Perhaps I'd have had more time for him if he hadn't met with extremists then conveniently forgot about those meetings. Some PM he would have made. The man was and is utterly useless, pacifist or otherwise.

I repeat once again, they are all as bad as each other, without exception.

Feel free to respond to the point about Corbyn's Labour sitting on the fence that ultimately allowed Brexit to happen and the demise of the NHS when what we needed was a united front. You're the one that made the flippant remark about tories fucking it up.

Appeasement got us ww2

 

[Scouse]

Wow. Utterly tone deaf as usual, and great use of a study that doesn't actually seem to have any basis in reality.

I'm guessing a pan-european workgroup of clinical psychologists deep-diving into the actual data is a shit measure of "actual reality".

What does the BMJ (rather than the daily mail) have to say on Suicide Rates during the pandemic?

a reasonably consistent picture is beginning to emerge from high income countries. Reports suggest either no rise in suicide rates (Massachusetts, USA11; Victoria, Australia13; England14) or a fall (Japan,9 Norway15) in the early months of the pandemic

With the usual caveats, that things aren't perfect and there are dangerous signals from certain sections of society (especially those with pre-existing mental conditions) - but actual figures of actual deaths look in-line to a) previous years and b) expectations during a pandemic - and again, because of well-understood behavioural patterns.

There's nothing in the actual data that suggests things are so bad that we should be abandoning a lockdown programme that's saving tens of thousands of lives.

To do that would be the wrong choice.

Fucking hell, talk about I'm alright jack.

Nothing to do with me. That's a dispassionate look at the data.

You don't swap increased calls into the Samaritans (which do tell a story) with actual deaths.

 

[Bodhi]

I'm guessing a pan-european workgroup of clinical psychologists deep-diving into the actual data is a shit measure of "actual reality".

What does the BMJ (rather than the daily mail) have to say on Suicide Rates during the pandemic?



With the usual caveats, that things aren't perfect and there are dangerous signals from certain sections of society (especially those with pre-existing mental conditions) - but actual figures of actual deaths look in-line to a) previous years and b) expectations during a pandemic - and again, because of well-understood behavioural patterns.

There's nothing in the actual data that suggests things are so bad that we should be abandoning a lockdown programme that's saving tens of thousands of lives.

To do that would be the wrong choice.


Nothing to do with me. That's a dispassionate look at the data.

You don't swap increased calls into the Samaritans (which do tell a story) with actual deaths.

Man, I love how certain they are about suicide rates in England, when even the ONS themselves have said the current numbers don't reflect reality, due to the 6 months (minimum) backlog at Coroners - which I can tell you from experience of an in-law getting hit by a train is accurate. It will be mid-year if not longer before we get any actual numbers on that, but so far they ain't looking pretty.

I'd also disagree it's a dispassionate look at the data - more of a dispassionate look at the issues being caused to your fellow man, by a policy you have a major hard on for. I guess if it helps you sleep at night however.....

 

[Yoni]

One of the MAIN reasons Sweden has not locked down is due to the effect on mental health. It is the same reason they try to keep schools open. I think that you are severely underestimating (to be honest like you always do) mental health issues from those countries doing extended lock downs and if I am honest as I have mentioned it before your lack of ability to empathise is very very apparent @Scouse.

 

[Scouse]

@Yoni - I'm not underestimating anything. I'm simply re-posting what mental health clinicians are saying, including in the British Medical Journal.

Don't confuse any of this as my opinion. It's the current opinion of the professionals.


@Bodhi - I understand you've suffered a bereavement and I sympathise. However, I think you've lost perspective. A bereavement due to suicide and a bereavement due to death from covid is still a bereavement. And 120,000 people have died of covid.

It will be mid-year if not longer before we get any actual numbers on that, but so far they ain't looking pretty.

We've not got the numbers - but the numbers don't look good. In the same sentence.

Like I said - I'm sorry for your loss, but unless we're talking about suicides being in the tens of thousands then there's zero justification for halting lockdowns.

Lockdowns save lives.

 

[Bodhi]

@Yoni - I'm not underestimating anything. I'm simply re-posting what mental health clinicians are saying, including in the British Medical Journal.

Don't confuse any of this as my opinion. It's the current opinion of the professionals.


@Bodhi - I understand you've suffered a bereavement and I sympathise. However, I think you've lost perspective. A bereavement due to suicide and a bereavement due to death from covid is still a bereavement. And 120,000 people have died of covid.



We've not got the numbers - but the numbers don't look good. In the same sentence.

Like I said - I'm sorry for your loss, but unless we're talking about suicides being in the tens of thousands then there's zero justification for halting lockdowns.

Lockdowns save lives.

I think you're a patronising tosser with an empathy bypass tbh, but as I said, if it helps you sleep at night to pretend there isn't a massive mental health bombshell on it way - especially for those currently missing school - then crack on. Seems no end of evidence from the charities involved in this will change your mind, when you've got some scientists in the Guardian to fall back on, so I shan't bother carrying on.

Everything is fine, and there is no collateral damage from Lockdown whatsoever - in fact, they are probably the greatest thing mankind has ever invented.

 

[Raven]

Covid: WHO backs Oxford vaccine 'even if variants present'

Its use in people over 65 as well as in countries where variants are circulating is recommended.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Scouse]

Everything is fine, and there is no collateral damage from Lockdown whatsoever

I, very clearly, didn't say that. And I have huge sympathy for people who are struggling - and have explictly said that multiple times.

I said lockdowns aren't killing people in huge numbers. And the facts on the ground prove it.


Thought exercise: your actions kill 250,000 people, or they kill 5,000 people. Pick one.

 

[Embattle]

It is about balance, at the moment it is heavily tipped towards Covid.

 

[Tay]

One of the MAIN reasons Sweden has not locked down is due to the effect on mental health. It is the same reason they try to keep schools open. I think that you are severely underestimating (to be honest like you always do) mental health issues from those countries doing extended lock downs and if I am honest as I have mentioned it before your lack of ability to empathise is very very apparent @Scouse.

One of the MAIN reasons Sweden didn't lockdown is due to the fact they (or rather several vocal experts such as Anders Tegnel) decided that herd immunity was the way to go. Little to no thought was given to the private care homes where many of your deaths happened.

However one of the reasons the lack of lockdowns 'partially' worked there is due to the 'general' conformity to the rules by its people, we don't have the same adherence to rules/laws let alone basic guidelines in the UK. This is fairly apparent given our current situation.

I noticed that recently even Swedens strategy is changing, partial lockdowns, face masks etc etc

 

[Raven]

I, very clearly, didn't say that. And I have huge sympathy for people who are struggling - and have explictly said that multiple times.

I said lockdowns aren't killing people in huge numbers. And the facts on the ground prove it.


Thought exercise: your actions kill 250,000 people, or they kill 5,000 people. Pick one.

That being said, the Tories should be ploughing money into mental health support, instead of just cutting it all back, as per usual.

 

[Bodhi]

One of the MAIN reasons Sweden didn't lockdown is due to the fact they (or rather several vocal experts such as Anders Tegnel) decided that herd immunity was the way to go. Little to no thought was given to the private care homes where many of your deaths happened.

However one of the reasons the lack of lockdowns 'partially' worked there is due to the 'general' conformity to the rules by its people, we don't have the same adherence to rules/laws let alone basic guidelines in the UK. This is fairly apparent given our current situation.

I noticed that recently even Swedens strategy is changing, partial lockdowns, face masks etc etc

Congratulations, just about everything you have said there is wrong.

 

[Yoni]

One of the MAIN reasons Sweden didn't lockdown is due to the fact they (or rather several vocal experts such as Anders Tegnel) decided that herd immunity was the way to go. Little to no thought was given to the private care homes where many of your deaths happened.

However one of the reasons the lack of lockdowns 'partially' worked there is due to the 'general' conformity to the rules by its people, we don't have the same adherence to rules/laws let alone basic guidelines in the UK. This is fairly apparent given our current situation.

I noticed that recently even Swedens strategy is changing, partial lockdowns, face masks etc etc

Do you live in Sweden .... no you do not so please do not lecture someone who does ..... the strategy in Sweden remains relatively unchanged ... some minor adjustments that have not changed much since last March - do not believe all you read in UK papers

 

[Tay]

Congratulations, just about everything you have said there is wrong.

Feel free to correct my errors..

 

[Tay]

Do you live in Sweden .... no you do not so please do not lecture someone who does ..... the strategy in Sweden remains relatively unchanged ... some minor adjustments that have not changed much since last March - do not believe all you read in UK papers

WTF has my residency got to do with this? what a ridiculous thing to say.

I'm stating some pretty basic facts that @Bodhi mostly refutes, so I'm keen to see where I've got it wrong.

 

[Raven]

Do you live in Sweden .... no you do not so please do not lecture someone who does ..... the strategy in Sweden remains relatively unchanged ... some minor adjustments that have not changed much since last March - do not believe all you read in UK papers

Do you live in the UK .... no you do not so please do not lecture someone who does.

 

[Embattle]

I swear you lot would have an argument over which way a piece of plain A4 should go into a printer if you felt the need.

 

[Tay]

I swear you lot would have an argument over which way a piece of plain A4 should go into a printer if you felt the need.

LIES !