Camelot Unchained

[Urgat]

We shall see

 

[Ctuchik]

Yes, they are, and they reward people for being fucking lazy and stupid.

Before i roll any class i do my research, and figure out how to build it properly.

I do to but sometimes i just don't want to follow the crowd and use the most obvious spec, so i try out lots of different ones to see what suits MY playstyle.

Without readily available respecs i can't do that.

You can only theory-craft a spec to a certain degree. And while it may give you a good general idea, how it works in practice might be a totally different story.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Hmm, lot of what he talks as "hand holding", no 20 minute horse rides or having to look for quest npc's in dark forests for hours for example, isn't in MMOs to make it harder, it's a timesink to get more cash out of people. Let's not kid ourselves.

Also boobsliders are important, if for nothing else to slide them -down- from usual MMO models.

Do not underestimate the importance of outlook over stats.

And one important thing to note; there is no hardcore MMO, never was, they're all pisseasy

And then note the little caveat; "we say all this is going to be in, until the moneymen say otherwise and we realise we don't haev time to put in X so we just copypasta Y". As happens with all games.

 

[Raven]

Nail head hit.

It doesn't need to be inconvenient to be hardcore. Most so called hardcore games just put false barriers in, such as spending 4 hours doing some inane shit just to respec, when you could just get it done and back out into rvr.

 

[- English -]

well i'd imagine the box sales from the beginning should cover those costs. Lets wait and see for kickstarter to see how many people seem interesed

 

[Gwadien]

But where is he getting all this information from?

He keeps saying no PvE, which is a terrible idea, since the majority of DAOC players still enjoyed PvE (If he means leveling up and then average farming at top level that's acceptable)

To me, that sounds like not a great deal of research has been done.

 

[Ctuchik]

But where is he getting all this information from?

He's been listening to the (no offense) 8v8 crowd and nothing BUT the 8v8 crowd.

 

[Raven]

I don't even think he has been listening to them.

He thinks he knows what people want and refuses to look at the bigger picture, just like he did with TOA, NF, WAR etc.

 

[- English -]

http://citystateentertainment.com/2013/02/foundational-principle-5-gold-sellers-still-suck/

Up next: TTN: No realm ranks, abilities? What?

oh please don't make the same mistake GW2 did ;/

 

[Ctuchik]

http://citystateentertainment.com/2013/02/foundational-principle-5-gold-sellers-still-suck/

Up next: TTN: No realm ranks, abilities? What?

oh please don't make the same mistake GW2 did ;/

That bothers me a lot less tbh. It makes you, the person behind the keyboard, more important in a fight then the RA's you would otherwise guaranteed have used to win.

 

[- English -]

That bothers me a lot less tbh. It makes you, the person behind the keyboard, more important in a fight then the RA's you would otherwise guaranteed have used to win.

I liked the visual repesentation of what realm ranks did with DAOC.. with the titles. When you fought people, you would notice their rank and that meant alot (rank means nothing these days). Also it was an indication of how much time you put into a charater in RVR.

In GW2 i solo'd alot on my thief in the early days, and even after shit loads of kills I had nothing to show for it, nothing to indicate that I had killed alot of people etc. It felt like a FPS where everyone is equal. I dont care for the added stats or RAS, but atleast let people see an indication of how experienced you have played that char with some system.

 

[- English -]

Silly or not its the reason i got bored with the game and left ;z

 

[Soazak]

I liked the visual repesentation of what realm ranks did with DAOC.. with the titles. When you fought people, you would notice their rank and that meant alot (rank means nothing these days). Also it was an indication of how much time you put into a charater in RVR.

In GW2 i solo'd alot on my thief in the early days, and even after shit loads of kills I had nothing to show for it, nothing to indicate that I had killed alot of people etc. It felt like a FPS where everyone is equal. I dont care for the added stats or RAS, but atleast let people see an indication of how experienced you have played that char with some system.

Agree with this, the titles were more important than the actual RAs imo, it was a semi-measure of recognition and e-peen. RAs (imo at least) were not too far away from items in wow, where time = power. From the blog it sounds like he is just wanting to implement the /title menu from daoc that just tracks your total kills/towers etc.

I would prefer something that's not just cumulative over the lifetime of the character though, like Faction Points in UO (1 kill gives +1 point, while a death -1 point, and a title depending on your number of points) or Arena rating in WoW.

That was one of the reasons I was bored with sPvP in GW2 as well, it seems petty but it seems to matter

No PvE seem weird, but I guess it could work.

 

[Xandax]

Yes, they are, and they reward people for being fucking lazy and stupid.

Before i roll any class i do my research, and figure out how to build it properly. I have been doing this in MMOS since i went 2 years at the start DAOC with a sub par shaman build because i made poor choices to begin with. I learned from that experience, it made me a better MMO player.

I LIKE "hardcore" (as you put it) mechanics in MMOs, i dont fucking want my hand holding.
I want to know that my build choices MATTER because i cant just change them on a whim.
I want to know that if i get killed, it MATTERS and that i cant just teleport back into combat in 20 seconds.

etc etc

The simple truth is, he is not pitching the game to the kind of poeple who like easy mode MMOs... he is pitching it to people like me, who remember when games were difficult, who remember when games didnt hold your hand, and who very much agree with everything he has said so far, and are looking forwards (if he pulls it off) to a game that goes back to a time when MMOs were challenging, and your actions and dicisions mattered.

I guess we will find out if there are enough poeple like me left when it comes to the kickstarter. It will either get the funding or it wont.

For the love of god though, if this doesnt appeal to you "AS IS" then stay the fuck away from the kickstarter please. I would rather see the game not launch, than see it launch with a load of people trying to change it's nature because they dont agree with the design of it.

The problem is that unless you wait 6 months - you cannot do your research. As you said yourself - you did 2 years as a subpar shaman. You can claim it made you a 'better MMO' player, but at the same time you could (were) perhaps as much a strain on your group/guild because you were sub par compare to being better spec, which could just as easily make you a 'better MMO' player as well. Because 'better MMO' player is rather difficult to quantify and use as an argument for anything.

And funny - you claim 'easy mode' and lazy and then in the same post, say you do research by basically copying what others have done as an example of 'hardcore'.

Seriously - it's fine to like 'hardcore' - but some things and features aren't hardcore but just dumb and/or time sinks. A time sink is not hardcore. A time sink is usually just the hallmark of a developer who's too dump to figure out how to engage his audience within the game, so he tries to make them spend more time in the game doing non-content.

DAoC's "difficulty" did not lie in lack of (or limited with dragons) respecs.
DAoC's "difficulty" did not lie in that crafting was basically sitting reading a book or watching TV while waiting for the 'ping' so you could press your craft button again (Drinking Bird crafting)
DAoC's difficulty was not waiting on queue for what ever PBAOE farm spot so you could level to 50 and level your buffbot along side you.
Such things are neither hardcore nor difficult.

DAoC's difficulty was in the RvR mechanics and the PvE mechanics (until people started using out-of-game guides to find quest objects - talk about handholding) and that people socialized because they wanted to, and not because the game forced them to.

For all the swearing and hailing of 'how things was just better' - the rose tainted glasses often do skew the image.

The players made the game. The game did not make the players.

The more MJ speaks, the more I get a distinct Molyneux feeling from it.

 

[rynnor]

Thinking more about the pathetically low budget the no pve seems more like a neccesity than a design decision.

Theres just about enough money to cover character creation, some lifeless zones to fight in and an initial crafting system with limited items.

 

[Soazak]

Meh I like the idea of limited or difficult respecs, I think respeccing and the way people expect dual spec as standard isn't great. I prefer the idea that the choices you make for your character have some effect, rather than switching next week because you've seen some random guilds video who did well with X spec as seems to be the case nowadays.

Xandax, the socialising point you mention was because the game forced them to, its the way games have changed over time that have removed that option of actually having to talk to people (auction house, group finder etc), I've been playing WoW since about new year to check out the new expansion. I've taken 4 chars to the high 80s, and in that time I've not really spoken to anyone, despite multiple dungeon runs, its just not required so people don't bother - wow seems to have got to the point where if you actually try to start a conversation that doesn't start: "do everyone know tactics for this boss?", you come across as weird

I kinda agree with you on the crafting (in terms of staring at the screen), but I also liked the early days of DAoC where there were relatively few people who managed to get LGM armor/weaponcrafting, they put a lot of work into it and had a lot of customers for it and it was always a big effort when someone wanted the 100% 16.5dps cleaver. Maybe it doesn't make the game 'hardcore', but personally (and I probably complained about them at the time), I actually like some of these aspects of games. Its quite easy for me to master all trades myself in no time at all because its more convenient for me, but it kinda sucks.

I did think Mark Jacobs is generally full of shit, a lot of what he posted during WAR made me think he was a bit of an idiot that didn't really understand daoc, but the video blog I watched kinda made me think he did recognize some of the problems with MMOs today in how they're getting easier and easier which isn't always a bad thing, but some of us want something difficult.

It can't be a bad thing someone is trying to do something different to the current trends, there are so many MMOs out there that only try to expand on what WoW has laid down anyway.

 

[Xandax]

<snip>
Xandax, the socialising point you mention was because the game forced them to, its the way games have changed over time that have removed that option of actually having to talk to people (auction house, group finder etc), I've been playing WoW since about new year to check out the new expansion. I've taken 4 chars to the high 80s, and in that time I've not really spoken to anyone, despite multiple dungeon runs, its just not required so people don't bother - wow seems to have got to the point where if you actually try to start a conversation that doesn't start: "do everyone know tactics for this boss?", you come across as weird
<snip>

Not for me and doubting I'm special, I doubt it was for everybody else.

The game might have 'forced' an interaction in terms of grouping up for a quest or to kill a mob, but the people I ran with was people I wanted to run with, not because I had to. The others were just as much a means to an end as they are in modern MMOs. I still just left the group after we were done.

I got to know as many quality people in WoW as I did in DAoC because I didn't play WoW with many I knew from DAoC.
I didn't in Warhammer because I already did know a good number of people from DAoC which I played that game with. Similar for SWTOR or GW2. I already had a 'friend base' to play with so I didn't need to get to know many new people.
Also - back in DAoC because many people were new to MMOs, it simply was the 'new world'. That means people reacted to it differently than they would when they play their 4th or 5th MMO.
And therein lies the difference...... many just blame the convince tools because it's the easy route and helps underlining the 'things where better back in the days' mentality we humans are so fond off.

There's no inherent socializing in standing around Gna Faste spamming LFG for Spindlehalla for an hour or in Vasduheim yelling that you're selling Copper Axes for 5 silver over and over.
There was also not much talk while waiting in Malmohus for a farm group to get from L47 to 50. People were /afk on the hill or chain pulling mobs down below with little reason to talk.
There was chatter with guild and/or 'friends' and well - you still very much have that, even with convenience tools like group finder and auction house which just saves much time for most people.

It's when the game becomes a chore people stop communicating. Running dungeons in WoW is properly because you're just after the loot. If you ran it without talking with your guild for the very first time you tried it .... then I suspect it's not the game which was the reason.

I 'loved' (if you can love a game) playing DAoC - but I also remember how it was both what I like and what I didn't and how people in it actually still is very similar to the ones in games of today.

 

[AngelHeal]

I don't really think harcore/easycore gaming is what makes/fails a game with pvp/rvr implented.
People can allways challenge themselves in a game, and they want to meassure their own skills with other people.
If this is made toooo easy to do, people tend to take stuff for granted really fast in games.
If this is made toooo hard to do, the majority of the eople tend to quit the game..
So you need to create/find a way to get balance.

If you try to make a game succesfull on evertyhing you will fail! You cannot be the best at all things, if you think you / your company holds all the information or tools to create this 'perfect game' you are wrong. Most information and skills are located outside your company, so you need to make the descission to be different, be good at one thing. If that thing is lore or rvr go for it, and dont try to be the best at pve.

 

[Fatload BoysDoCry]

Meh I like the idea of limited or difficult respecs, I think respeccing and the way people expect dual spec as standard isn't great. I prefer the idea that the choices you make for your character have some effect, rather than switching next week because you've seen some random guilds video who did well with X spec as seems to be the case nowadays.

Xandax, the socialising point you mention was because the game forced them to, its the way games have changed over time that have removed that option of actually having to talk to people (auction house, group finder etc), I've been playing WoW since about new year to check out the new expansion. I've taken 4 chars to the high 80s, and in that time I've not really spoken to anyone, despite multiple dungeon runs, its just not required so people don't bother - wow seems to have got to the point where if you actually try to start a conversation that doesn't start: "do everyone know tactics for this boss?", you come across as weird

I kinda agree with you on the crafting (in terms of staring at the screen), but I also liked the early days of DAoC where there were relatively few people who managed to get LGM armor/weaponcrafting, they put a lot of work into it and had a lot of customers for it and it was always a big effort when someone wanted the 100% 16.5dps cleaver. Maybe it doesn't make the game 'hardcore', but personally (and I probably complained about them at the time), I actually like some of these aspects of games. Its quite easy for me to master all trades myself in no time at all because its more convenient for me, but it kinda sucks.

I did think Mark Jacobs is generally full of shit, a lot of what he posted during WAR made me think he was a bit of an idiot that didn't really understand daoc, but the video blog I watched kinda made me think he did recognize some of the problems with MMOs today in how they're getting easier and easier which isn't always a bad thing, but some of us want something difficult.

It can't be a bad thing someone is trying to do something different to the current trends, there are so many MMOs out there that only try to expand on what WoW has laid down anyway.

I just want to tame a shit load of dragons and leave them in peoples houses

 

[Nate]

No ra's, fuck this shit game!

 

[Hawkwind]

http://citystateentertainment.com/2013/02/foundational-principle-5-gold-sellers-still-suck/

Up next: TTN: No realm ranks, abilities? What?

oh please don't make the same mistake GW2 did ;/

At least Arenanet listened to the community and are making the changes. Just don't know what they are yet

 

[- English -]

too little too late though :<

 

[Himse]

Hah, think i'll hold out till a few people have played it.

 

[- English -]

Everyone says that Himse but you know you would play it asap

 

[Ctuchik]

too little too late though :<

It's not too little to late, the game has only been out for 6 months! At least give them enough time to actually gather enough data and opinions to make a decently educated decision first, or are you really that impatient that you're willing to accept what Mythic did to DAoC all over again with their fucking kneejerk reactions and not whining about that instead?

 

[rynnor]

It's not too little to late, the game has only been out for 6 months!

Tbh he is right that its too late since you only get one chance to make a first impression - do they care though?

If they can get most people to leave they could save a lot in upkeep costs.

 

[- English -]

It's not too little to late, the game has only been out for 6 months! At least give them enough time to actually gather enough data and opinions to make a decently educated decision first, or are you really that impatient that you're willing to accept what Mythic did to DAoC all over again with their fucking kneejerk reactions and not whining about that instead?

They should have known this from the start. I know many people who left for this reason, and it would be hard for them to go back.

Daoc and mythic were never perfect aswell. The brought the /title info in after NF i believe, but I dont think that was a reason why people left back then. They had realm rank titles atleast from the start.

 

[Raven]

It's not too little to late, the game has only been out for 6 months! At least give them enough time to actually gather enough data and opinions to make a decently educated decision first, or are you really that impatient that you're willing to accept what Mythic did to DAoC all over again with their fucking kneejerk reactions and not whining about that instead?

6 months is too late for an MMO. (these days) If it's crap on launch it is dead.

 

[Fatload BoysDoCry]

GW2 had the potential but is terrible now. They have been so aggressive is their approach to forcing people to use the gem store with constant nerfs to loot/DR on farm spots.

It's free and I refuse to play it.

 

[BloodOmen]

I tried GW2 a few weeks ago to see if it got any better, logged in for about 15 minutes went "This is fucking terrible" and logged off.