Camelot Unchained

[Litmus]

6 months is too late for an MMO. (these days) If it's crap on launch it is dead.

That's true, the best thing a company can do is make sure the game is fit for release, if they rush it out they lose far to many players far to quick

 

[Nate]

6 seconds after release is too late.

 

[svartalf]

audio i/v
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/02/19/massively-speaking-episode-237-mark-jacobs-interview/

and

Camelot Unchained: Balanced classes out, rock-paper-scissors in
by Justin Olivetti on Feb 18th 2013 4:00PMBetas, Fantasy, Classes, PvP, Dev Diaries, Camelot Unchained0


In his latest lecture series on Camelot Unchained game design, Mark Jacobs discusses his team's approach to class design for the title and how it won't go with the flow of most MMOs. In fact, he says that the effort to carefully balance classes has proved a detriment to the industry, and as such, Camelot Unchained will pursue a rock-paper-scissors structure.

Why is Jacobs going down this route? In short, it just doesn't fit an RvR-focused game. "[Rock-paper-scissors] lends an element of unpredictability and it gives us so much more freedom to explore different classes/abilities without worrying about having everything equally balanced 100% all the time," he wrote.

Jacobs finishes his lecture by saying that the studio is adapting CCP's development model: "Start small, iterate and then build, baby, build."

• Source: Class dev diary
• More coverage: City State Entertainment

Tags: balance, camelot, camelot-unchained, choices, city-state, city-state-entertainment, class, class-balance, classes, dev-blog, dev-diary, mark-jacobs, pvp, rock-paper-scissors, rvr

 

[ileks]

The intro music to that interview brought back memories!

 

[AngelHeal]

...any release date yet? and why am i not yet in beta?

 

[Himse]

The intro music to that interview brought back memories!

jesus, +1! reminds me of the first time i ever logged into daoc lol!

 

[ileks]

So how does this Kickstarter thing work? If you pledge x amount and they don't reach their target do you get it back? And if it goes ahead do you get a free copy of the game or something?

 

[Xandax]

GW2 had the potential but is terrible now. They have been so aggressive is their approach to forcing people to use the gem store with constant nerfs to loot/DR on farm spots.

It's free and I refuse to play it.

Indeed. I still occasionally log in but mostly just do a daily then log out because well - they IMO really did place themselves between the two chairs of GW1 players and WoW type players.
Their 'oh, we put in another gear tier to bridge a gap which does not exists but we just created and you can only get it by grind-farming a single dungeon' was enough to chase me away pretty much entirely.
If they start dropping that gear from WvW so I don't have to grind dailies for months, and do not bring in another tier - I could find enjoyment in that game again but if I wanted to gear grind, I'd just have stayed in SWTOR or heck even WoW.

And then the constant nerfing of loot and hyper inflation on some items ..... *sigh* and they even claim to have economists helping with the game economy. Think he comes from Enron or something.

That's why the approach of MJ sound interesting for this game, but it is so very easy to get wrong.

 

[Soazak]

So how does this Kickstarter thing work? If you pledge x amount and they don't reach their target do you get it back? And if it goes ahead do you get a free copy of the game or something?

You pledge an amount of money towards the game based on their 'advert' on kickstarter, you provide credit/debit card details, and if they match their target at the end of the auction your card is debited, if they don't it's not.

If they don't meet their target you don't get charged. It's kinda like ebay, but you don't get anything at the end.

 

[ileks]

You pledge an amount of money towards the game based on their 'advert' on kickstarter, you provide credit/debit card details, and if they match their target at the end of the auction your card is debited, if they don't it's not.

If they don't meet their target you don't get charged. It's kinda like ebay, but you don't get anything at the end.

Ah I see. That's quite good.

Do you think they will offer beta access or anything for those that back it?

 

[Ctuchik]

Ah I see. That's quite good.

Do you think they will offer beta access or anything for those that back it?

I'd be really surprised if they didn't. But as they haven't actually said anything about it i'd wait if that's an important point for your decision to pledge or not.

 

[Bahumat]

Ah I see. That's quite good.

Do you think they will offer beta access or anything for those that back it?

Yeah normally companies say things like "If you pledge £50 you are guaranteed beta access". "If you pledge £100 you get a free copy of the game". "If you pledge £2000 you get a NPC named after you" etc. Different companies offer different rewards.

 

[Raven]

Will the game have any NPCs?

 

[Fatload BoysDoCry]

And then the constant nerfing of loot and hyper inflation on some items ..... *sigh* and they even claim to have economists helping with the game economy. Think he comes from Enron or something.

I heard its the same guy that made all people in Zimbabwe million and billionaires

 

[Gahn]

Indeed. I still occasionally log in but mostly just do a daily then log out because well - they IMO really did place themselves between the two chairs of GW1 players and WoW type players.
Their 'oh, we put in another gear tier to bridge a gap which does not exists but we just created and you can only get it by grind-farming a single dungeon' was enough to chase me away pretty much entirely.
If they start dropping that gear from WvW so I don't have to grind dailies for months, and do not bring in another tier - I could find enjoyment in that game again but if I wanted to gear grind, I'd just have stayed in SWTOR or heck even WoW.

And then the constant nerfing of loot and hyper inflation on some items ..... *sigh* and they even claim to have economists helping with the game economy. Think he comes from Enron or something.

That's why the approach of MJ sound interesting for this game, but it is so very easy to get wrong.

Well Gw2 isn't as bad as you paint it tbh, that said it isn't a "small" men group friendly game either.
MJ approach seems interesting on paper but i don't see anything against zerg mind playing there also atm.

 

[Xandax]

Well Gw2 isn't as bad as you paint it tbh, that said it isn't a "small" men group friendly game either.
MJ approach seems interesting on paper but i don't see anything against zerg mind playing there also atm.

I agree - on paper it's interesting. I'm however getting a bit of Molyneux that MJ might be 'overhyping' some of the points to the fans already; and it's so very easy to get wrong because even though he "only" focuses on RvR and the supporting economy, especially the latter can make or break the game very fast (or at least push it very far into a very small niche) and not allow time and resources to balance/tweak/improve the former.
There's a very fine line between making crafting economies successful and making them completely kick casual people not living in the game in the groin.
I guess it'll be a 'seeing is believing' - so currently on the fence about a kickstart support from myself.

I personally don't mind the 'zerg mind' either. Sometimes I enjoy (well often) running around in large battles, but where many games have failed over the later years is that it's basically the only way to play. There's little room for something else, unless you enjoy ghost-capping empty points.
That's one of the things which - IMO - made DAoC fun. I could run solo, run in a FG or 2FG or 3FG or zerg. Especially if you knew the terrain (and got through the outer frontier zones like Emain).
But that does not mean the 'zerg crowd' shouldn't be welcome, it should just not be the only playing style possible.

Oh and for GW2. If they had just made all powerlevels of gear optainable from all avenues as they promised to begin with but failed to implement (and still lack), I would properly be playing the WvW right now. Instead - shooting people in PS2 is much more fun as a game. No hassle - just log on and fight. No MMO though - lacks persistency.

 

[Xandax]

6 seconds after release is too late.

One could easily argue - "Open Beta" is too late

 

[Fatload BoysDoCry]

You pledge an amount of money towards the game based on their 'advert' on kickstarter, you provide credit/debit card details, and if they match their target at the end of the auction your card is debited, if they don't it's not.

If they don't meet their target you don't get charged. It's kinda like ebay, but you don't get anything at the end.

Carl är bög

 

[Gahn]

I agree - on paper it's interesting. I'm however getting a bit of Molyneux that MJ might be 'overhyping' some of the points to the fans already; and it's so very easy to get wrong because even though he "only" focuses on RvR and the supporting economy, especially the latter can make or break the game very fast (or at least push it very far into a very small niche) and not allow time and resources to balance/tweak/improve the former.
There's a very fine line between making crafting economies successful and making them completely kick casual people not living in the game in the groin.
I guess it'll be a 'seeing is believing' - so currently on the fence about a kickstart support from myself.

Economy wise making crafters the only viable source of items is, IMO, very good. In every frigging game out there crafting is only a side way of wasting your money cause the best drops in game are always better than what you can craft.
We could argue for months about games economy and what is made for ^^

I personally don't mind the 'zerg mind' either. Sometimes I enjoy (well often) running around in large battles, but where many games have failed over the later years is that it's basically the only way to play. There's little room for something else, unless you enjoy ghost-capping empty points.
That's one of the things which - IMO - made DAoC fun. I could run solo, run in a FG or 2FG or 3FG or zerg. Especially if you knew the terrain (and got through the outer frontier zones like Emain).
But that does not mean the 'zerg crowd' shouldn't be welcome, it should just not be the only playing style possible.

I don't mind it also (well erm), that said MJ want to make a pure RvR game and preach to give tools to counter greater numbers cause of the very last point you wrote

Oh and for GW2. If they had just made all powerlevels of gear optainable from all avenues as they promised to begin with but failed to implement (and still lack), I would properly be playing the WvW right now. Instead - shooting people in PS2 is much more fun as a game. No hassle - just log on and fight. No MMO though - lacks persistency.

Gw2 atm is the closest way to have fun MMO wise, it isn't perfect, it isn't Daoc2 but it is the closest thing you can have, IMO.

 

[Ctuchik]

Tbh he is right that its too late since you only get one chance to make a first impression - do they care though?

Not caring would be counterproductive wouldn't it?

6 months is too late for an MMO. (these days) If it's crap on launch it is dead.

So not having RvR titles makes the ENTIRE game crap?


I'm sorry but you lot are making this be a bigger deal then it is. We're talking about fucking TITLES here...

Yes an MMO only get one change, but if something like this is the "do or die" for you then....... I'm sorry but it's a slightly childish standpoint you're having...

 

[Raven]

Err..what?

I said if a game is crap on launch then it fails...I couldn't give a crap about titles.

 

[Xandax]

Economy wise making crafters the only viable source of items is, IMO, very good. In every frigging game out there crafting is only a side way of wasting your money cause the best drops in game are always better than what you can craft.
We could argue for months about games economy and what is made for ^^
<snip>

It's not about making crafting the only viable source in my book. It's whether or not they're making it impossible for people who do not live in the game. That's where the fine line exists. Because when crafters are the only viable source; it's easy to forget not everybody plays 10 hours a day when designing an economy basically making it work instead of a game. Craft economies are fine - but it's still just a game.

Gw2 atm is the closest way to have fun MMO wise, it isn't perfect, it isn't Daoc2 but it is the closest thing you can have, IMO.

[/quote]
Well - GW2 could have been fun, but ANet seems hell bent on turning it away from what they claimed it would be in the development phase. Likely to force people to the gemshop. Their strong suit is there's not much competition at the moment. ESO will properly be GW2s real test but at that time, I'm sure ANet has emptied enough wallets that they don't care. Some nice quality of life features, but outside that .... well, wasted potential IMO.
Outside WvW, I'd properly rather spend time in GW1 to be honest than GW2. Heck - I'd rather play TOR than the PvE in GW2.

 

[svartalf]

Camelot Unchained dev diary details crafting
by Matt Daniel on Feb 22nd 2013 5:00PMFantasy, PvP, News items, Dev Diaries, Crafting, Camelot Unchained0


Camelot Unchained's series of dev diaries on the game's "foundational principles" continues today with a post on principle number seven: "Crafting should be fun, useful and not induce Carpal Tunnel Syndrome." Well, that does sound like a reasonable principle, but how is the team going to go about implementing that principle in practice?

For starters, crafting will be "the only reliable way to get armor, weapons, and most items" within the game. The post emphasizes that there are no "rare drops" and that "the whole 'Oh look, I just killed a nightingale and it dropped a full suit of purple armor' is so last decade." Players will also be able to create a "'crafting-class' character with separate crafting-based... leveling tracks." The CU devs also hope to ensure that crafters are able to build a reputation on their servers through the "naming/signature (hopefully visual as well as textual) of items, rewards from their server's ruler, etc." The full piece goes into much more depth than we have the space for here, though, so if you want all the details on Camelot Unchained's crafting philosophy, head on over to the game's official site.

• Source: Camelot Unchained dev diary: Foundational Principle #7
• More coverage: Camelot Unchained official site

Tags: camelot, camelot-unchained, city-state, city-state-entertainment, crafting, cse, dev-blog, dev-blogs, dev-diaries, dev-diary, mark-jacobs, pvp, rvr

 

[- English -]

Not caring would be counterproductive wouldn't it?



So not having RvR titles makes the ENTIRE game crap?


I'm sorry but you lot are making this be a bigger deal then it is. We're talking about fucking TITLES here...

Yes an MMO only get one change, but if something like this is the "do or die" for you then....... I'm sorry but it's a slightly childish standpoint you're having...

Tbh titles are a huge factor! I am not refering to if the game has been badly coded of if the graphics are shit and flowing with bugs or whatever - that was all great.

This is an MMO not a FPS. If i wanna pick a game up, dont care who bill is form bob, have fun for 30 mins log off then i'll go play CS.

GW2 is an mmo and therefore everything you do should be noted / rewarded etc. GW2 is too similar to this FPS log on factor and have nothing to show for it. There is no goal, no objective to creating a character and spending time to improve it, because at the end of the year you look back and you're just a theif or just a warrior, not one of the highest ranked theifs at that because there's no system!

One of the things with DAOC and I was talking to a friend about this earlier, he has always admirred and respected the people who acheived early a high realm rank - and he still tries to acheive the same title today. Being on a low populated server (3000 or so max iin DAOC), you learnt your enemies and friended them, this was because this title system existed.

And to try prove it for those who played daoc before teh US merge, try guess who this could be:

Who was that solo (most of the time )red highlander dragon knight pole armsmen?

 

[Raven]

Kagato was the only solo armsman I can remember, not sure I remember him being in red though!

 

[- English -]

He was in his final glory days

 

[BloodOmen]

Kagato was the only solo armsman I can remember, not sure I remember him being in red though!

Shorti used to solo back in the day hit like a fking truck aswell, remember him hitting my thane for 1026 pre-toa, bloody no quickness in template git

 

[Raven]

I ran with no quickness for a while, one shotted a couple of non plate wearers with it

 

[Gwadien]

Kagato was the only solo armsman I can remember, not sure I remember him being in red though!

Another one then!

Bit later on mind you..

Hill by Crau Bridge, standing there like a tree, with his sword and shield out...

Leveled with that guy!

 

[old.Tohtori]

I see one fundamental flaw with the crafting system he speaks of;

"Only way to get best gear is crafting."
"Buying stuff from an auction house is easymode and not hardcore"(pssh)

Sounds grindtastic if i'm honest

And no, player shops are just auction houses with a pretty new paint.

I see where the guy is going with this, but he's too hellbent on removing all MMO known features(because they're so called easymode) that he's also killing some features that are good. Auction house, pve, pve drops, no forced socializing, fast travel etc etc, they are not mmo sourpoints, or "for kids". I've seen this before in designers, many times, where the idea takes over and he's unwilling to compromise on anything that might crack the sanctity of his idea of hardcore.