Overdriven
Dumpster Fire of The South
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2004
- Messages
- 12,797
I wonder if Jacobs saw Django and said "I love that idea"
Camelot Unchained
- Thread starter BloodOmen
- Start date
Urgat
Part of the furniture
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2003
- Messages
- 665
It was called Ultima online. And it was brilliant back in its day. Before carebears ruined it with Trammel and the concept of safety in a dangerous player run open world.
old.Tohtori
FH is my second home
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2004
- Messages
- 45,210
Yeah i know, it was a shame i couldn't play it back then due to no CC and no fancy paypals etc
LordjOX
Part of the furniture
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 3,885
BloodOmen
I am a FH squatter
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2004
- Messages
- 18,187
- Thread starter
- #95
February 11, 2013
…our players are not children and this is not an intersection crossing. Over the years many MMORPG designers, me included, have employed various devices and mechanics in order to increase our games’ subscription base. We removed points of frustration (I termed them “quit points” at Mythic), sped up the leveling curve (the argument being that games should not be harder to level than WoW), highlighted evolutionary or revolutionary new features to differentiate our games from our competition (extremely guilty as charged your honor!) and others too numerous to describe here. While this has brought about some very good innovations, it also resulted in the vast majority of MMORPGs becoming easier to player, simpler to master and more “hand-holding” that their earlier brethren. These mechanics include speeding up of travel time (Players: “I don’t want to have to walk 20 minutes to get into the action because it feels like we are moving through mud”), lack of meaningful and/or punishing death penalties (Players: “OMG, I died because your random number generator is broken! It’s not my fault!”), fast leveling systems (Players: “I don’t want to max my character 12 months from now; I only play once a week”), auction houses (Players: “Don’t force me to interact with other players to sell/buy stuff. I have to do that in RL, I don’t want to do that in a game.”), easy to follow quest directions with full signage included (Players: “I don’t want to explore the world to find this NPC. I don’t have that much time to waste!”), etc. Players of course, relayed those “Player” statements to us back in my Dark Age of Camelot days on forums and through feedback/chat/Q&As/etc. Now, none of these techniques is morally or ethically bad (since what is challenging for one gamer can be total frustration for another) nor are many players’ desires for an easier and faster playing game; and as a designer/developer/player, I absolutely agreed with some of them. However, with the implementation of some of these techniques, much of what made earlier MMORPGs and RPGs unique and challenging was lost. Many developers/publishers were and are so afraid to let the players lose, make mistakes, suffer any inconvenience, etc., that we have created a feedback loop whereby many players expect spoon fed content that goes down real easy, shown how to do everything, directed so they can’t make serious mistakes, etc. This has in turn caused many players and designers to lose touch with what made success in earlier MMOs really mean something. There are a plethora of clichés that I could choose right now but instead I will focus on “no risk, no reward.”
Based on a sampling of the sentiments on the various forums I lurk on and/or participate in, there is growing belief among players we’ve also lost some of the excitement and socialization that comes with making the right or wrong choice, losing a tough fight, having to interact/group with other players, etc. and many are growing weary of this trend. Whether the publishers originated this approach or simply supported and encouraged it, it’s a trend that we fully intend to run counter to with CU.
As an independent developer of a lower-budget, lower subscription target MMORPG (using today’s inflated scale), we retain more than our fair measure of creative freedom that I wouldn’t trade for a larger budget and longer development timeline (been there, done that). I want the freedom to take some risks with this game without enduring sleepless nights as I worry about whether a feature (or lack thereof) will alienate too many players, anger the boss, piss off the investors, etc. I like waking up thinking “This is a really freaking cool idea let’s try it!” or “Wasn’t it cool when you were wandering around in the dark not knowing what might jump out at you?” rather than having to endure conversations like “Mark, if we do this we can sell-in another 100K boxes.” We need to look at the evolution of these games and see what features (or again, lack thereof) made older MMORPGs seem more immersive and/or challenging and dare I say it (dare, dare!), realistic, even if a minority of players complained about them in the past and might still complain about them now.
“No risk, no reward” may sound fine in principle but what does it mean when applied in the practice; let’s look at a few examples.
Case #1 – Follow the blinking line to your quest-giver like one follows the road of yellow bricks
SWG was, I believe, the first MMORPG to innovate with this terrific timesaving feature which was especially helpful in MMORPGs that had large maps, confusing terrain, and/or indoor spaces, difficult to find NPCs, etc. However, over the years, this feature has, IMO, unexpectedly not only increased the perception of or ability for, grinding in MMORPGs (more on this in another post) but also damaged the feeling of immersion and suspension of disbelief among many of these games’ player-base. By always knowing where you are going and eliminating the chance of getting lost, we also lost some of the frustration but also the fun and feeling of discovery, of exploring and gaining familiarity with a new world and the satisfaction that entailed. In CU, there will be no blinking lines to follow, maps will be very simplistic and non-interactive (except in certain locations) and players will need to learn the world’s terrain to have the best chance to succeed.
Case #2 – Auction House
The addition of auction houses made it quite convenient for players to exchange goods. They have evolved over time from static locations with interactive auctioneers to, in some games, the ability for the player to buy and sell goods anywhere in the world. While this feature is quite popular (especially for pack rats like me), it has come at the cost of decreasing socialization between players and possibly, an increased sense of disconnection with the game as a world, rather than the world as a game. Again, a great feature for some games but in CU, we will have no auction house (though a commodities market *may* be an option due to the difference between gathered resources and crafted goods). Instead, crafters will control shops that they can run themselves or they can barter their goods in parts of towns that we have customized and optimized for that specific purpose. Player shops are not innovative of course but they will be crucial in helping to build a larger sense of community among our players. CU will also have ways that players/guilds can group together in order to sell their goods but still with in-game merchants, rather than having to sell it by themselves.
Case #3 – Respecs and/or borking your build
When first conceived, respecs were hailed as a great innovation for both players and developers alike. While their overuse occasionally resulted in “flavor of the month” problems, they served as both a safety net for players who wanted to rebuild their character(s) for a variety of reasons. In CU, while we want our players to have as much flexibility as they can within our class-based system, we will leave it up to them to decide if a certain combination of skills/abilities is a good idea and then, for the most part, hold them to that decision. While players of CU will have limited access to respecs, they will be difficult to acquire except when made necessary by a major change to the character class, in which case the players will, of course, get a free class respec. Now, we do not want the players to perceive CU as being unduly draconian but if players are looking to create one character and then constantly respec them, that avenue will not be available to them. While this, as a side effect, encourages players to play alts (okay, personal bias here, I love alts), it will also encourage players to work with their chosen class instead of quickly just abandoning a build and playing something else because they believe they made a bad choice(s). BTW, we will not be selling respec tokens or anything similar, even if we have a cash shop, because that would be both disrespectful to the player and run counter to my belief in the differences between FTP and P2P games.
While there are endless other examples, it is time to end this extremely lengthy piece. To sum up, Camelot Unchained will not hold your hand, it will allow you to make mistakes, it will encourage you to take risks, but most importantly, it will reward you for doing so and yes, if you make some bad decisions it will not always be easy to undo them, old school style.
-Mark
Up next: Choice matters
…our players are not children and this is not an intersection crossing. Over the years many MMORPG designers, me included, have employed various devices and mechanics in order to increase our games’ subscription base. We removed points of frustration (I termed them “quit points” at Mythic), sped up the leveling curve (the argument being that games should not be harder to level than WoW), highlighted evolutionary or revolutionary new features to differentiate our games from our competition (extremely guilty as charged your honor!) and others too numerous to describe here. While this has brought about some very good innovations, it also resulted in the vast majority of MMORPGs becoming easier to player, simpler to master and more “hand-holding” that their earlier brethren. These mechanics include speeding up of travel time (Players: “I don’t want to have to walk 20 minutes to get into the action because it feels like we are moving through mud”), lack of meaningful and/or punishing death penalties (Players: “OMG, I died because your random number generator is broken! It’s not my fault!”), fast leveling systems (Players: “I don’t want to max my character 12 months from now; I only play once a week”), auction houses (Players: “Don’t force me to interact with other players to sell/buy stuff. I have to do that in RL, I don’t want to do that in a game.”), easy to follow quest directions with full signage included (Players: “I don’t want to explore the world to find this NPC. I don’t have that much time to waste!”), etc. Players of course, relayed those “Player” statements to us back in my Dark Age of Camelot days on forums and through feedback/chat/Q&As/etc. Now, none of these techniques is morally or ethically bad (since what is challenging for one gamer can be total frustration for another) nor are many players’ desires for an easier and faster playing game; and as a designer/developer/player, I absolutely agreed with some of them. However, with the implementation of some of these techniques, much of what made earlier MMORPGs and RPGs unique and challenging was lost. Many developers/publishers were and are so afraid to let the players lose, make mistakes, suffer any inconvenience, etc., that we have created a feedback loop whereby many players expect spoon fed content that goes down real easy, shown how to do everything, directed so they can’t make serious mistakes, etc. This has in turn caused many players and designers to lose touch with what made success in earlier MMOs really mean something. There are a plethora of clichés that I could choose right now but instead I will focus on “no risk, no reward.”
Based on a sampling of the sentiments on the various forums I lurk on and/or participate in, there is growing belief among players we’ve also lost some of the excitement and socialization that comes with making the right or wrong choice, losing a tough fight, having to interact/group with other players, etc. and many are growing weary of this trend. Whether the publishers originated this approach or simply supported and encouraged it, it’s a trend that we fully intend to run counter to with CU.
As an independent developer of a lower-budget, lower subscription target MMORPG (using today’s inflated scale), we retain more than our fair measure of creative freedom that I wouldn’t trade for a larger budget and longer development timeline (been there, done that). I want the freedom to take some risks with this game without enduring sleepless nights as I worry about whether a feature (or lack thereof) will alienate too many players, anger the boss, piss off the investors, etc. I like waking up thinking “This is a really freaking cool idea let’s try it!” or “Wasn’t it cool when you were wandering around in the dark not knowing what might jump out at you?” rather than having to endure conversations like “Mark, if we do this we can sell-in another 100K boxes.” We need to look at the evolution of these games and see what features (or again, lack thereof) made older MMORPGs seem more immersive and/or challenging and dare I say it (dare, dare!), realistic, even if a minority of players complained about them in the past and might still complain about them now.
“No risk, no reward” may sound fine in principle but what does it mean when applied in the practice; let’s look at a few examples.
Case #1 – Follow the blinking line to your quest-giver like one follows the road of yellow bricks
SWG was, I believe, the first MMORPG to innovate with this terrific timesaving feature which was especially helpful in MMORPGs that had large maps, confusing terrain, and/or indoor spaces, difficult to find NPCs, etc. However, over the years, this feature has, IMO, unexpectedly not only increased the perception of or ability for, grinding in MMORPGs (more on this in another post) but also damaged the feeling of immersion and suspension of disbelief among many of these games’ player-base. By always knowing where you are going and eliminating the chance of getting lost, we also lost some of the frustration but also the fun and feeling of discovery, of exploring and gaining familiarity with a new world and the satisfaction that entailed. In CU, there will be no blinking lines to follow, maps will be very simplistic and non-interactive (except in certain locations) and players will need to learn the world’s terrain to have the best chance to succeed.
Case #2 – Auction House
The addition of auction houses made it quite convenient for players to exchange goods. They have evolved over time from static locations with interactive auctioneers to, in some games, the ability for the player to buy and sell goods anywhere in the world. While this feature is quite popular (especially for pack rats like me), it has come at the cost of decreasing socialization between players and possibly, an increased sense of disconnection with the game as a world, rather than the world as a game. Again, a great feature for some games but in CU, we will have no auction house (though a commodities market *may* be an option due to the difference between gathered resources and crafted goods). Instead, crafters will control shops that they can run themselves or they can barter their goods in parts of towns that we have customized and optimized for that specific purpose. Player shops are not innovative of course but they will be crucial in helping to build a larger sense of community among our players. CU will also have ways that players/guilds can group together in order to sell their goods but still with in-game merchants, rather than having to sell it by themselves.
Case #3 – Respecs and/or borking your build
When first conceived, respecs were hailed as a great innovation for both players and developers alike. While their overuse occasionally resulted in “flavor of the month” problems, they served as both a safety net for players who wanted to rebuild their character(s) for a variety of reasons. In CU, while we want our players to have as much flexibility as they can within our class-based system, we will leave it up to them to decide if a certain combination of skills/abilities is a good idea and then, for the most part, hold them to that decision. While players of CU will have limited access to respecs, they will be difficult to acquire except when made necessary by a major change to the character class, in which case the players will, of course, get a free class respec. Now, we do not want the players to perceive CU as being unduly draconian but if players are looking to create one character and then constantly respec them, that avenue will not be available to them. While this, as a side effect, encourages players to play alts (okay, personal bias here, I love alts), it will also encourage players to work with their chosen class instead of quickly just abandoning a build and playing something else because they believe they made a bad choice(s). BTW, we will not be selling respec tokens or anything similar, even if we have a cash shop, because that would be both disrespectful to the player and run counter to my belief in the differences between FTP and P2P games.
While there are endless other examples, it is time to end this extremely lengthy piece. To sum up, Camelot Unchained will not hold your hand, it will allow you to make mistakes, it will encourage you to take risks, but most importantly, it will reward you for doing so and yes, if you make some bad decisions it will not always be easy to undo them, old school style.
-Mark
Up next: Choice matters
BloodOmen
I am a FH squatter
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2004
- Messages
- 18,187
- Thread starter
- #96
Foundational Principle #4 – Choice Matters!
February 13, 2013
RPGs have traditionally offered players a plethora of choices for building out their characters. From the earliest P&PGs to MMORPGs, players have been able to select everything from the most basic choices (race, sex, etc.) to complicated backgrounds for their character. Unfortunately, over the years many MMORPGs have scaled back player options as developers/publishers chose to chase non-core gamers. While there are moreavatar customizati options, are having things like “boob sliders” really more important to RPGers than being able to create characters who have meaningful statistical differences and abilities tied to the players’ selection of race, gender, etc.? Well, at least to me they are not and from the moment that a player creates his character in CU, the choices that the player makes will have significant impact on that character’s development. However, that is not enough; we also want players to know that as they play through the game, their ongoing choices of weapons, crafting, play-style, etc. will also have a real bearing on not only their skills/abilities but also on their bodies. I cannot say that “Every choice you make matters!” because well, that would simply not be true. What I can say is that if a player swings an axe 1000 times, it will affect their character’s strength. Conversely, if they are struck with 1000 axe-blows, it will also take its toll (do not worry; we are not talking about perma-death). Further, while we want CU to be a class-based RPG, we also want to give the player a lot of freedom to choose skills, armor, etc. for their character without worrying about a never-ending list of absolute restrictions regarding who can wear what armor, use what weapon, etc. Now, what happens to the magic-user who wears too much metal (or the wrong kind), or spends too much time wielding that sword or “crossing the streams” is another matter entirely but the choice is yours. While there are some restrictions, they will be few in number, as we want players to be able to have fun with the system. This is one of the reasons why I am not calling CU a “Sandbox MMORPG” (IMO, a true sandbox MMORPG has almost no restrictions whatsoever) but rather an MMORPG with some strong sandbox elements.
One P&PG convention that has been rarely used in MMORPGs allows players to further customize their character with “banes and boons”, “advantages and disadvantages,” etc. and I want to integrate a meaningful implementation of this mechanism into CU. Optional of course, but when factored in along with meaningful differences between races, genders, stats allocation, etc. it will allow players a greater deal of customization freedom than most MMORPGs. IMO, having more choices for my character’s stats, his background, special skills, abilities, his strengths and weaknesses, etc. are more important to me than hairstyle, eye color, etc. If you agree with me, you will find CU to be the kind of game that will challenge you to learn about the system before you create your character because, well, choices should matter.
Now, as usual, that might sound good in theory but how will we apply it in practice.
Example #1 – Stat Allocation during character creation
CU will have a full stat allocation system (min-maxers can rejoice now), so that you can spend lots of time truly customizing your character. While you will not be able to totally Bork your build in the beginning (strength 0), you will really be able to focus your stat allocation on your character’s projected career path. There will be racial maxes and minimums but those will only apply to the character creator and “normal” statistical growth. There will be means (magical of course), to temporarily and/or permanently boost your stats in the game though.
Example #2 – Race/gender selections
The races/genders will be very different from each other in terms of their starting stats/abilities but also in numerous other ways. For example, certain races/genders are better attuned to the sources of magical power in the world. I know some people will complain that this is not fair but that is how it is going to be in CU, where these choices matter. We want the player to think carefully before they create their character, to run the various character generators and read the guides before beginning the process. We are not seeking to gain traction among traditionally non-gamers but rather amongst experienced RPG and MMORPG players. We are not dumbing down this game to sell more copies but rather building the game with our eyes focused on our target demographic and what we believe will appeal to them. We know that every choice we make will be available to players for their dissection before CU ships and we trust our players to learn how to deal with them. IMO, the vast majority of our players will be experienced gamers but also have played other MMOs and have more than a passing knowledge of P&PGs so hand-holding, hidden statistics, vanilla starting builds are neither necessary nor sought by them.
Example #3 – That is one heavy sword, I can barely pick it up
Yep, weapons will have strength requirements attached to them but what I hope (not promise) we can do is allow players to pick up weapons that are almost too heavy for them and try to use them in practice and battle supported with some humorous animations. However, like eating your spinach, using that kind of weapon over time will make you strong like ox and you will get better at wielding it. OTOH, if it weighs more than you and you are not strong, well, I just hope hilarity ensues (and YouTube videos).
Example #4 – What happens when electricity meets metal?
Let us say we have magic users who are good at manipulating electricity and let us say that same mage has decided to carry/wear a bit too much metal that day. It is just possible that summoning lightning is not a good idea unless you are looking to supply the enemy realm with an extra-large bucket of crispy Tuatha-fried mage.
Example #5 – I want to run around the field of battle in my birthday suit
Well, if the birthday suit is a full set of armor, you will be just fine. If not, does your health insurance cover in-MMORPG injuries?
Example #6 – I am a pack rat, a hoarder and I love carrying lots of stuff
First, let me say just how much I *hate* bag and bank slot restrictions. There will be no bag/bank slot limitations in our game (sorry leather/cloth workers, we’ll have better things for you to do though) but we will be reintroducing the concept of “carrying capacity” and other lovely terms that will be quite important to your character. Now, because we are not a PvE, loot drop based game it will not matter quite as much but you will not be able to go out carrying 20 swords, 10 battleaxes, and 3 suits of plate armor. This won’t be a game where you have to be so careful every time you go out into battle to properly select every single thing you are carrying but don’t expect to be carting around the inventory of your local dollar store either.
Final example: I want to play a mage who likes to play with fire, a lot.
After deciding that a female Tuatha De Danann gives you a nice little bonus and after some serious min-maxing, you now have a character you cleverly call Fiastrtr. She cannot wield a heavy sword (at least not well) but now it is time to kick it up a notch. You choose to take “The Vow” and in exchange for not letting cold iron/steel touch your skin, you increase your attunement with magic. You also choose “You move like a pregnant yak!” (Not the real name but I could not resist a movie quote) further reducing your usefulness in melee but once again increasing your magical attunement. You also choose the very powerful “Victory or death” vow which means that when you are dying (but not dead yet) your body cannot be resurrected/healed by another player but well, enemies who are standing around you will not be happy. Also, if you choose to sacrifice yourself heroically (when you are not dying), well, they will remember your name.
So, that’s a good start to explaining both how choices matter in the game but also a bit more regarding how CU really is a RPG at its core. In addition, of course, this is just a teaser, much more to come.
-Mark
P.S. For those who wish CU was a skill-based game, as that would really work well for this FP, we at CSE just think that for this MMORPG, a class-based game is the better choice.
Up next: I Still Hate Gold Sellers!
February 13, 2013
RPGs have traditionally offered players a plethora of choices for building out their characters. From the earliest P&PGs to MMORPGs, players have been able to select everything from the most basic choices (race, sex, etc.) to complicated backgrounds for their character. Unfortunately, over the years many MMORPGs have scaled back player options as developers/publishers chose to chase non-core gamers. While there are moreavatar customizati options, are having things like “boob sliders” really more important to RPGers than being able to create characters who have meaningful statistical differences and abilities tied to the players’ selection of race, gender, etc.? Well, at least to me they are not and from the moment that a player creates his character in CU, the choices that the player makes will have significant impact on that character’s development. However, that is not enough; we also want players to know that as they play through the game, their ongoing choices of weapons, crafting, play-style, etc. will also have a real bearing on not only their skills/abilities but also on their bodies. I cannot say that “Every choice you make matters!” because well, that would simply not be true. What I can say is that if a player swings an axe 1000 times, it will affect their character’s strength. Conversely, if they are struck with 1000 axe-blows, it will also take its toll (do not worry; we are not talking about perma-death). Further, while we want CU to be a class-based RPG, we also want to give the player a lot of freedom to choose skills, armor, etc. for their character without worrying about a never-ending list of absolute restrictions regarding who can wear what armor, use what weapon, etc. Now, what happens to the magic-user who wears too much metal (or the wrong kind), or spends too much time wielding that sword or “crossing the streams” is another matter entirely but the choice is yours. While there are some restrictions, they will be few in number, as we want players to be able to have fun with the system. This is one of the reasons why I am not calling CU a “Sandbox MMORPG” (IMO, a true sandbox MMORPG has almost no restrictions whatsoever) but rather an MMORPG with some strong sandbox elements.
One P&PG convention that has been rarely used in MMORPGs allows players to further customize their character with “banes and boons”, “advantages and disadvantages,” etc. and I want to integrate a meaningful implementation of this mechanism into CU. Optional of course, but when factored in along with meaningful differences between races, genders, stats allocation, etc. it will allow players a greater deal of customization freedom than most MMORPGs. IMO, having more choices for my character’s stats, his background, special skills, abilities, his strengths and weaknesses, etc. are more important to me than hairstyle, eye color, etc. If you agree with me, you will find CU to be the kind of game that will challenge you to learn about the system before you create your character because, well, choices should matter.
Now, as usual, that might sound good in theory but how will we apply it in practice.
Example #1 – Stat Allocation during character creation
CU will have a full stat allocation system (min-maxers can rejoice now), so that you can spend lots of time truly customizing your character. While you will not be able to totally Bork your build in the beginning (strength 0), you will really be able to focus your stat allocation on your character’s projected career path. There will be racial maxes and minimums but those will only apply to the character creator and “normal” statistical growth. There will be means (magical of course), to temporarily and/or permanently boost your stats in the game though.
Example #2 – Race/gender selections
The races/genders will be very different from each other in terms of their starting stats/abilities but also in numerous other ways. For example, certain races/genders are better attuned to the sources of magical power in the world. I know some people will complain that this is not fair but that is how it is going to be in CU, where these choices matter. We want the player to think carefully before they create their character, to run the various character generators and read the guides before beginning the process. We are not seeking to gain traction among traditionally non-gamers but rather amongst experienced RPG and MMORPG players. We are not dumbing down this game to sell more copies but rather building the game with our eyes focused on our target demographic and what we believe will appeal to them. We know that every choice we make will be available to players for their dissection before CU ships and we trust our players to learn how to deal with them. IMO, the vast majority of our players will be experienced gamers but also have played other MMOs and have more than a passing knowledge of P&PGs so hand-holding, hidden statistics, vanilla starting builds are neither necessary nor sought by them.
Example #3 – That is one heavy sword, I can barely pick it up
Yep, weapons will have strength requirements attached to them but what I hope (not promise) we can do is allow players to pick up weapons that are almost too heavy for them and try to use them in practice and battle supported with some humorous animations. However, like eating your spinach, using that kind of weapon over time will make you strong like ox and you will get better at wielding it. OTOH, if it weighs more than you and you are not strong, well, I just hope hilarity ensues (and YouTube videos).
Example #4 – What happens when electricity meets metal?
Let us say we have magic users who are good at manipulating electricity and let us say that same mage has decided to carry/wear a bit too much metal that day. It is just possible that summoning lightning is not a good idea unless you are looking to supply the enemy realm with an extra-large bucket of crispy Tuatha-fried mage.
Example #5 – I want to run around the field of battle in my birthday suit
Well, if the birthday suit is a full set of armor, you will be just fine. If not, does your health insurance cover in-MMORPG injuries?
Example #6 – I am a pack rat, a hoarder and I love carrying lots of stuff
First, let me say just how much I *hate* bag and bank slot restrictions. There will be no bag/bank slot limitations in our game (sorry leather/cloth workers, we’ll have better things for you to do though) but we will be reintroducing the concept of “carrying capacity” and other lovely terms that will be quite important to your character. Now, because we are not a PvE, loot drop based game it will not matter quite as much but you will not be able to go out carrying 20 swords, 10 battleaxes, and 3 suits of plate armor. This won’t be a game where you have to be so careful every time you go out into battle to properly select every single thing you are carrying but don’t expect to be carting around the inventory of your local dollar store either.
Final example: I want to play a mage who likes to play with fire, a lot.
After deciding that a female Tuatha De Danann gives you a nice little bonus and after some serious min-maxing, you now have a character you cleverly call Fiastrtr. She cannot wield a heavy sword (at least not well) but now it is time to kick it up a notch. You choose to take “The Vow” and in exchange for not letting cold iron/steel touch your skin, you increase your attunement with magic. You also choose “You move like a pregnant yak!” (Not the real name but I could not resist a movie quote) further reducing your usefulness in melee but once again increasing your magical attunement. You also choose the very powerful “Victory or death” vow which means that when you are dying (but not dead yet) your body cannot be resurrected/healed by another player but well, enemies who are standing around you will not be happy. Also, if you choose to sacrifice yourself heroically (when you are not dying), well, they will remember your name.
So, that’s a good start to explaining both how choices matter in the game but also a bit more regarding how CU really is a RPG at its core. In addition, of course, this is just a teaser, much more to come.
-Mark
P.S. For those who wish CU was a skill-based game, as that would really work well for this FP, we at CSE just think that for this MMORPG, a class-based game is the better choice.
Up next: I Still Hate Gold Sellers!
BloodOmen
I am a FH squatter
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2004
- Messages
- 18,187
- Thread starter
- #97
Another reply from Mark Jacobs
- BloodOmenEU 4 days ago
Another quick question if I might ask it Mark. I was just reading the latest blog entry and it says "Since RvR isn’t our endgame, the vast majority of the world’s map (sorry, I still believe in protecting freshly minted characters, so feel free to mock this choice) is going to be open, unlocked and available for your raiding, looting and RvRing pleasure" - does this mean it'll be like mordred was? completely open/able to invade other realms towns and cities?
Reply ·
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qaquariusq 4 days ago
MJ will know best, but I don't think that's a proper comparison exactly, like apples to oranges... DAOC was designed for separate pve areas, and rvr areas. Mordred opened that up sure, so anyone could go anywhere and kill... but you were open to kill anyone anywhere (pve lands or rvr). So the 3 realm thing wasn't there exactly. In camelot unchained, it will all be "designed for tri-rvr" world/map, and your realm's areas will still be "safer" since your realm is your team. More defenders around!
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BloodOmenEU 4 days ago
I think it'll be less like Mordred and more like what Warhammer was if anything, Warhammer was fairly open but did have its limitations/towns you couldn't enter due to guards etc, I'd assume this will be something similar in that respect - which i'm fine with, was just looking for some comfirmation
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Mark Jacobs 59 minutes ago
That's pretty close. It is intended to be a persistent open world game.
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ileks
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No PvE sounds dodgy.
I like nearly everything else he has to say.
The combat mechanics will make or break it for me. It needs to be fast paced with powerful (but readily countered) spells. The longer you make the average fight take the harder it is for few to take on many. I want it like DAOC basically I'm sick of MMOs where you have very little chance of beating enemies that outnumber you even if you are better than them.
I like nearly everything else he has to say.
The combat mechanics will make or break it for me. It needs to be fast paced with powerful (but readily countered) spells. The longer you make the average fight take the harder it is for few to take on many. I want it like DAOC basically
I'm sick of MMOs where you have very little chance of beating enemies that outnumber you even if you are better than them.
Himse
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No PvE sounds dodgy.
I like nearly everything else he has to say.
The combat mechanics will make or break it for me. It needs to be fast paced with powerful (but readily countered) spells. The longer you make the average fight take the harder it is for few to take on many. I want it like DAOC basically
+1
Although to me no PVE is perfect, I hate PVE personally, I don't have time to do it, it's slow, boring etc etc.
I always wanted a DAoC freeshard that was classic'ish, but I50 (a bit like eden OF) that was really fun to play, balanced and plenty of groups. After live died all of the freeshards seem to be just gimped or Uthgard (which I really don't have time to level on)
Gwadien
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Thing is with Eden and stuff it was a temporary server, and that's what it was intended for, people were on a par in terms of stats and stuff and took a lot of the challenge away from the game.
A major thing that concerns me is if there's no PvE, BloodOmen will be level 50 first, and he'll already be farming players in RvR for gold to buy the mats to make his armor then someone who plays a lot more casually will roll in at level 50 to be 1 hit by all the hardcore players on a regular basis, because they can't afford to buy new armor so in DAOC there was already the advantage of RPs for RvR now its gear too?
Himse
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I hope that was a joke. It made the game more about who was actually a better player than who has the best gear. That's WoW's flaw, unless you're sick at the game, 90% of the time people will beat you based on items. Skill>being good because of gear.
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Resident Freddy
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There will always be a case of where someone can play 24/7, and have an advantage over casual joe.
I don't think thats the problem, even in DAoC the more you played the better / more experienced youl became. Even in GW2 which I casually played, I still got kitted out quickly due to the guild helping with crafters etc.
I really like the thing about class and not skills - and also about how things effect your class throughout your time. Looking back before everything got serious with maxing templates, it would be fun to run with 1 stat higher as that was your playstyle, but ofcouse leave some weakness somewhere else.
The thing about DAOC.. there was something which made me go WOW, i want to play that class, or look at that pala in plate armour. It took me 6 months before I got a level 50, and I was quite addicted back then (ok I was like 14). With these new MMOs i just pick one and see it through and theres never anything which makes me flinch, because all seem so... similiar?
I don't think thats the problem, even in DAoC the more you played the better / more experienced youl became. Even in GW2 which I casually played, I still got kitted out quickly due to the guild helping with crafters etc.
I really like the thing about class and not skills - and also about how things effect your class throughout your time. Looking back before everything got serious with maxing templates, it would be fun to run with 1 stat higher as that was your playstyle, but ofcouse leave some weakness somewhere else.
The thing about DAOC.. there was something which made me go WOW, i want to play that class, or look at that pala in plate armour. It took me 6 months before I got a level 50, and I was quite addicted back then (ok I was like 14). With these new MMOs i just pick one and see it through and theres never anything which makes me flinch, because all seem so... similiar?
BloodOmen
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Live interview happening right now with Mark Jacobs @ http://www.mmorpg.com/streams.cfm
Well there is a difference between advantage and being rolled over with no chance.
Much of this game does sound interesting, although personally there are some things that missing IMO (PvE for the time I just want to muck about for example and I'm not too sure about the PvP model which sound Darkfalll -ish) - but I do think whether or not they forget not everybody can play 24/7 any more - many of the old-school gamers have grown up quite considerable and aren't school kids/students/single any more.
If casual playing don't stand a chance and will be one-shotted (or effectively might as well be one-shotted) due to not being able to afford/gather gear - then the niche for the game becomes a whole lot smaller.
People need to remember, that casual does not mean dumped down, even if it is a prevailing insult and meme on some boards.
You can play 24/7 and be dumb as a door and not able to walk through it, and you can play 2 hours every other day and still want a challenge (but a challenge that can be overcome).
Gwadien
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Respec? - missed that... what's that then?
Ctuchik
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Only obtained from a hard ass mission iirc...
BloodOmen
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No, he said if any spec was changed for balance free respecs would be given, as for choosing a spec thats really bad, the logic is people will have to live with whatever spec they choose to make them think about it more rather than just going "OMG THAT SPECS POONS" which is fine I guess.
The train of thought so far in CU is basically "We're not holding your hand like modern mmo's live with your choices"
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It's not really hand holding though, it is a standard feature. If they make it too stupid with inconveniences people simply won't play it and you may as well just play DAOC. How many average MMOs have died within months lately? What sort of a chance do you think a game that goes out of it's way to be awkward will have? This will be even more of an issue at the start when people don't know what specs are any good. How many people will stick around if they spend weeks on a character only to find it's badly specced but find they are stuck with it?
Respecs are part and parcel of MMOs these days. If Mark Jacobs want's his to survive it's first year then he has to take off the rose tinted glasses and acknowledge that the world and therefore his subscriptions source, has moved on. This isn't just about respecs but in general OMFG ITS HARDCORE!1121!! will kill the game before it's started.
Respecs are part and parcel of MMOs these days. If Mark Jacobs want's his to survive it's first year then he has to take off the rose tinted glasses and acknowledge that the world and therefore his subscriptions source, has moved on. This isn't just about respecs but in general OMFG ITS HARDCORE!1121!! will kill the game before it's started.
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Resident Freddy
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Which is how they were in daoc tbh, going on dragon raids to get a respect etc...
I think I have about 200 of each now in my vaults on hib
I think I have about 200 of each now in my vaults on hib
Urgat
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Yes, they are, and they reward people for being fucking lazy and stupid.
Before i roll any class i do my research, and figure out how to build it properly. I have been doing this in MMOS since i went 2 years at the start DAOC with a sub par shaman build because i made poor choices to begin with. I learned from that experience, it made me a better MMO player.
I LIKE "hardcore" (as you put it) mechanics in MMOs, i dont fucking want my hand holding.
I want to know that my build choices MATTER because i cant just change them on a whim.
I want to know that if i get killed, it MATTERS and that i cant just teleport back into combat in 20 seconds.
etc etc
The simple truth is, he is not pitching the game to the kind of poeple who like easy mode MMOs... he is pitching it to people like me, who remember when games were difficult, who remember when games didnt hold your hand, and who very much agree with everything he has said so far, and are looking forwards (if he pulls it off) to a game that goes back to a time when MMOs were challenging, and your actions and dicisions mattered.
I guess we will find out if there are enough poeple like me left when it comes to the kickstarter. It will either get the funding or it wont.
For the love of god though, if this doesnt appeal to you "AS IS" then stay the fuck away from the kickstarter please. I would rather see the game not launch, than see it launch with a load of people trying to change it's nature because they dont agree with the design of it.
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It really doesn't matter what you want, it matters what the MMO player of today want. I didn't say I don't like it to be hard. I love a bit of difficulty but the masses don't, the masses are who will decide whether this (or any other MMO) survives. He isn't going to get very far with 10, 20k subs. Not after however many millions of dollars invested. It's simple business, it is not a nice little fantasy land where they tailor an MMO to your personal needs or likes.
Why do people think they are a special snowflake these days?
Why do people think they are a special snowflake these days?
Mabs
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Ceixah
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Which is how they were in daoc tbh, going on dragon raids to get a respect etc...
I think I have about 200 of each now in my vaults on hib
This is because I ran like a million raids on dyvet before transfer
Urgat
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You missed the point entirely.
It DOESNT matter what the masses want.. Fuck the masses. Because this ISNT a game for the masses.
Jacobs is betting that there ARE enough people like me left to back his vision of an "old school" MMO. He isn't pitching to the masses, and we will see if he was right to believe there are enough people left like me when the kickstarter... well.... kicks off.
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There won't be Not in the long term anyway. What's the investment? 4 mil? They need 33k ish subscriptions (assuming $10 a month) for a year to make that back and that isn't even thinking about the costs of running the servers, staff, future development.
Not in the long term anyway. What's the investment? 4 mil? They need 33k ish subscriptions (assuming $10 a month) for a year to make that back and that isn't even thinking about the costs of running the servers, staff, future development.