Camelot Unchained

[Raven]

Yep, they are many features that make getting to the meat of the game much easier.

 

[Himse]

I see one fundamental flaw with the crafting system he speaks of;

"Only way to get best gear is crafting."
"Buying stuff from an auction house is easymode and not hardcore"(pssh)

Sounds grindtastic if i'm honest

And no, player shops are just auction houses with a pretty new paint.

I see where the guy is going with this, but he's too hellbent on removing all MMO known features(because they're so called easymode) that he's also killing some features that are good. Auction house, pve, pve drops, no forced socializing, fast travel etc etc, they are not mmo sourpoints, or "for kids". I've seen this before in designers, many times, where the idea takes over and he's unwilling to compromise on anything that might crack the sanctity of his idea of hardcore.

I think with regard to auction houses, he'd like to remove them PURELY because it encourages people to buy gold from gold sellers.

In WoW you literally don't have to even level yourself, you can be PL'd, then gain 100k gold by buying it and just go raid/pvp or whatever, which I guess is what he doesn't want in the game.

 

[old.Tohtori]

I think with regard to auction houses, he'd like to remove them PURELY because it encourages people to buy gold from gold sellers.

In WoW you literally don't have to even level yourself, you can be PL'd, then gain 100k gold by buying it and just go raid/pvp or whatever, which I guess is what he doesn't want in the game.

Yeah that could be a reason, but a poor one at that since gold sellers don't limit to selling gold. They should be thought of as services for money, which will always be there. Combating it with limiting features(aka punishing players) is not a really good move

 

[rynnor]

Since people will still buy gold to buy stuff from the playershops its a stupid arguement.

The real reason I would suggest is that they dont want to spend any money creating an AH - all the talk of hardcore is cover for having a ridiculously low dev budget.

 

[Raven]

Yep, in this case. Hardcore = 10 year old game design.

 

[Urgat]

This is clearly not the game for you.

Move along, nothing to see here.

<gets card ready to pledge>

 

[rynnor]

This is clearly not the game for you.

Move along, nothing to see here.

<gets card ready to pledge>

I knew there would be a fanboi who would suck in all the crap from MJ and say it was roses

Thanks for being predictable...

 

[Urgat]

I knew there would be a fanboi who would suck in all the crap from MJ and say it was roses

Thanks for being predictable...

Well that was a very well structured, and reasoned post wasn't it.... And your a mod here?

Yes... because i MUST be a fanboy to agree with what MJ has laid out so far in his foundation principles, and the various posts he has made on forums about CU and his past mistakes.

Or wait...

Perhaps it's just that i agree with his vision for CU, and would like to see the game he proposes to make actually hit the shelves. Ya see... the whole point of him laying out his design principles and vision, and then backing them up in conversations with those interested on various forums... is so that people can make an informed choice up front about if they want to support that vision or not.

I personally feel thaty MJ has made some awfull decisions in the past, and that he certainly shoulders some blame for what happened to both DAOC and WAR. I am certainly no "fanboy"
However, i also believe, having read a great deal of his writing about those times, that he has learned some lessons.

So far, i agree with everything he has laid out in his articles about CU, and i have been iompressed with his willingness to admit to his failings in the past. I completely agree with his thoughts on game design, and i find his vision for this game compeling, and believe that if he does what he says he will do, and makes the game he is talking about making, the way he wants to make it... it will be a game i would enjoy.

Thus, i will be willing to back it.

How this affects you enough to drive you to comment on me personally is beyond me. Consider yourself reported.


Well look at that... a well thought out post from an ex mod...

 

[Raven]

People are allowed to criticise it. It sounds terrible but would be nice if it was good. If everyone just says how GREAT it is when it clearly won't be then it will just end up being worse than it should be.

If you are allowed to say how good you think it is people have every right to say how they think it will be terrible. It's called balance.

 

[Urgat]

People are allowed to criticise it. It sounds terrible but would be nice if it was good. If everyone just says how GREAT it is when it clearly won't be then it will just end up being worse than it should be.

If you are allowed to say how good you think it is people have every right to say how they think it will be terrible. It's called balance.

I completely agree.

You think its sounds terrible, where as I think it sounds perfect.

Different horses for different courses. We are all allowed opinions, after all.

My origional point was... No one is forcing those who dont like his design goals to back it during the kickstarter, if you dont like the sound of it, you are free to ignore it and move on That was all i was saying in my earlier post.

And someone decided that gave them grounds to attack my integrity, intelegence and character.

 

[Muylaetrix]

i had to search for hours to find my FH account info back, lol.

This certainly has me excited.

... on the no pve subject.
fronteers was not a pve zone, but still there were mobs and places one could level/pl. i expect the same here. at some point on the CU website (or was it somewhere else? can't remember, damn i'm getting old) he even mentioned dragons. people remember the green knight and other epic class mobs ?

... no realm ranks.
from what i understand there will be no levels and no realm ranks but plenty of character creation options and stat diversification. levels and RR will be replaced by skill increases. remember augmented xxx level x ?

i get the expression that a lot of people read the CU website either very fast, very poorly or with a lot of prejudice.

so, the game might be very basic on release (fronteer, crafting, character development, housing/construction) which is good enough for me tbh if it manages to capture the spirit of realm vs realm as found in DAoC.

 

[rynnor]

Well that was a very well structured, and reasoned post wasn't it.... And your a mod here?

I took my tone from your post - if you want everything in this thread to be sweetness and light feel free to start your own 'sugary thread about camelot with extra cheese' or what have you but barring that I will voice my opinion on the game concept the same way you can - it is a discussion forum after all.

 

[rynnor]

... on the no pve subject.
fronteers was not a pve zone, but still there were mobs and places one could level/pl. i expect the same here. at some point on the CU website (or was it somewhere else? can't remember, damn i'm getting old) he even mentioned dragons. people remember the green knight and other epic class mobs ?.

Frontiers was a mixed pve/pvp zone - from what I have read camelot will have a zone with a few epics to attack but no pve mobs in its main rvr zones and very few npcs full stop. No Pve is pretty clear tbh.

 

[Muylaetrix]

Frontiers was a mixed pve/pvp zone - from what I have read camelot will have a zone with a few epics to attack but no pve mobs in its main rvr zones and very few npcs full stop. No Pve is pretty clear tbh.

no gates to bash overnight ? ;p

 

[Everz]

no gates to bash overnight ? ;p

You'll be a bit screwed then Muyl .

 

[Muylaetrix]

You'll be a bit screwed then Muyl .

totally, with no npcs or doors to pawn in the dead of night... hopefully there will be towers to hide in

 

[svartalf]

City State Entertainment

Foundational Principle #8 – This should be a chaotic game with epic surprises at every turn
Posted on February 26, 2013 by Patrick Doring

Over the course of my long career, I have spent a lot of time (some have said far too much time), hanging/lurking around forums, talking to players, gathering feedback, etc., but I have always considered it an important part of my job description. The advantages of this approach have always been readily apparent to me especially when I see a post that really catches my eye. A number of weeks ago a player on one of the forums that I have been spending quite some time on wrote a post that has become this Foundational Principle.When I read it, I saw that it both encapsulated some of the principles I pushed for in WAR (some of which were approved by the senior leadership team, others were met with dark stares and raised cutlery) and said it as well (probably better actually) than I could say myself. I want this game to be something you play every day not for the leveling grind, not for the gear grind but simply because playing the game is both fun and challenging. IMO, adding some elements of chaos/randomness/whim to multiple game systems and gameplay, will be a net gain for CU.This game will not be a linear, theme-park style world where you pretty much know what the outcome of most of the fights will be before the battle begins and that someone’s “Guide to riches and success in CU” will be all-knowing and 100% accurate, but rather, a game that will evolve and change over time.

Now, what does that mean for you as the player? Injecting randomness into games very often meets an ill-fated reception from a vocal portion of the player base.While many players do want to embrace a bit randomness here and there (usually when it benefits them), when the die roll goes against them, well, a lot of scream of outrage can ensue such as the ever-popular “Your randomizer is broken!”One could easily paraphrase Benjamin Franklin’s line in the film 1776 (sadly, it wasn’t a real quote) to say that “Randomness is always good when it works to our advantage, it’s only when it works against us should it be made illegal.” Over the years, my feelings about randomness in games have careened wildly along the track.As one might imagine, I currently believe that as we have made MMORPGs more and more handholding and predictable, we have lost much of both the joys and sorrows of having something really random happen to players whether it is during the course of a pitched battle or simply when just walking down a road.

Having said that, I also understand the concern of players who really don’t want too much randomness in their game because that can lead to far too many truly unexpected losses and frustration with the game’s mechanics, including the much maligned random number generator. What I propose is that this game’s combat systems have enough randomness built into them that players will not know that every time they swing their sword, they will always hit for X damage.I don’t want the player to know that every time they go into a 1:1 battle with someone of equal knowledge/skill but with a slight lower character that the outcome is easily and thoroughly predetermined. However, the system’s damage combat mechanics will be laid out so that the majority of damage will be set but where only a portion of it is random but with a strong critical hit/miss system component as well. We should have a bit more fun with very rare rolls on both sides of the success spectrum. I want to add some special critical hits and critical failures to the game, as I believe that they will add a lot of spice as well as some much needed humor and occasional pathos to the game. Critical hits & failures will be rare but every so often, something should happen of such monumental glory that the players end up discussing these as “water cooler conversations” the next day. Yes, it will not be fun to be on the receiving end of course but on the other hand, if you are on the other side or simply enjoy a good chuckle, your seeing that powerful Tuatha De Dannan mage cast a mighty spell and being turned into a horned rabbit might make your day. Again, I don’t want to turn this game into an evening’s worth of blooper reel entertainment but a little randomness could add some truly awesome moments into the game or as my son would say making it “fresh.”

Besides combat, we will look at adding a lot of randomness to the environment in terms of how not only it evolves over time naturally but also how the effects of magic that the players inject into the environment can also affect it over time as well. The landscape should change not just because of seasons (which would, IMO, be a good addition to this game) but also because the players are throwing around the equivalent of small, tactical nuclear devices like guests used to throw rice at wedding receptions. We will try to incorporate the consequences of summoning and tossing around so much power into the game in order to throw, every so often, what amounts to a curveball (or would that be a curvefireball?) at the players.This could manifest in all manner of ways including creating temporary “dead spaces” where magic might not work or maybe areas where magic works just a wee bit too well. It could also mean that the geography of an area could suddenly change or even that certain beings might manifest themselves within the world quite unexpectedly and with rather interesting results.These are just a quick sampling of the many game devices that we can use to help make our players’ experiences within the game not only a bit more unpredictable but also, IMO, a lot more fun, exciting and at times, challenging.

What it boils down to is this, do we want to have a game where randomness and chaos within the game’s systems play a small or nonexistent role or do we want some more excitement both from our game but more importantly, for our experience in that game. Applying too much randomness and chaos into this game would indeed be a mistake, as would building out the systems in a totally sterile and predictable manner. However, I for one look forward to playing in a game where a lot of unique, different and truly odd and funny events can occur anytime and anywhere. Who knows, maybe it might even be fun to be turned into a cute little bunny rabbit as long as I get to bite the head off of an Arthurian while the sound of a can opener plays in the background.

Mark

Next up: Foundational Principle #9 – Forced socialization was good, then bad. Is it time for a comeback?


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Legal

 

[Himse]

You know what'd make me PVE in this game?

If mobs/bosses aren't like WoW - OH HE'S GOING TO STUN IN 3,2,1 MOVE, if it's actually random, it'll be sort of fun.

That's what kills WoW PVE for me, if you know the tactics it's a piece of piss really.

 

[old.Tohtori]

That's a lot of talk about how random number generators aren't really liked by people and how they're going to implement random number generators in to the game

"I for one look forward to playing in a game where a lot of unique, different and truly odd and funny events can occur anytime and anywhere.", i'd like that kind of a game too, but the fact is that even if FTL is random fun, after 20 hours there's no more content to fill random holes. Pink bunny attacking your pants is fun the first time, but a pink bunny attacking your pants in a desert instead of a forest is still the same pink bunny event.

Making it green wouldn't really make me soil my pants either.

 

[Raven]

"We are going to make it hardcore where serious thought needs to be put in to get the most out of your character then we are going to introduce some bullshit random crap to make it all meaningless - that skill selection and armour choice that you spent hours working out will add to the hilarity when some rog mage one shots you! Oh the funnies"

But it's hardcore because it doesn't have an AH!

It sounds worse every time he announces something.

 

[Nate]

I'm just going to cast my magic fireball, OH SHIT I turned in to a cuddly little toy!?!?! double damage wtf!? fluffy toys don't do...forum post tell people I owned them lols.

 

[Urgat]

"We are going to make it hardcore where serious thought needs to be put in to get the most out of your character then we are going to introduce some bullshit random crap to make it all meaningless - that skill selection and armour choice that you spent hours working out will add to the hilarity when some rog mage one shots you! Oh the funnies"

But it's hardcore because it doesn't have an AH!

It sounds worse every time he announces something.

Happy to admit... This is the first design principle that has given me pause for thought.

Agree with both raven and Toht... Honestly can't see how it will be a better game for "random shit"

 

[Muylaetrix]

languague/speech is probably the worst possible means to communicate ideas. unfortunately it is our only way to communicate.

people talk all the time, but most of the time i'm left wondering what they mean.

DAoC had (has, whatever) more random influence than almost any other mmo since. most of the games today are like "you hit for 472, next hit is also 472, the hit after that is also 472, always 472 against the same target. DAoC had more variance (untill you got 50+ skill and/or were hitting for cap damage). i like the variance of hitting somewhere between 400 and 500, the unpredictability of not knowing if i'll need 3, 4 or maybe 5 hits.

in GW2 you have things like "64 % chance to crit, each crit does + 104% damage"
DAoC was more like "35 % chance to crit, each crit does + 1 to 50 % extra damage"

in that 'meaning' i'm all for a bigger influence of 'random' factors.

but yeah, without much more explication it is not evident what exactly is meant.

 

[Ctuchik]

The hell...

He just outlined the combat system for pretty much EVERY FUCKING MMO OUT THERE!

They ALL have a bunch of RNG's to determine hits, crits, misses, dodges, blocks, parry, evade and what have you...

Or did i miss something here and he's reffering to games that isn't MMO's?

I mean, i can't think of a single MMO where this stuff isn't the case.. Random dice rolls are kinda the bread and butter foundation of an MMO's combat system.....

 

[Urgat]

My thoughts exactly.

Up untill now, the foundation principles have all struck a chord with me.

Hiwever this one just feels... Strange. It's almost as though it didn't need saying... And us just filler. It tells me nothing about the game itself.

Hmmm.

 

[old.Tohtori]

If you see a professional game designer talking shop(serious matters like promises for pre-order money) like he's talking on reddit or other forum(one of the peeps), with tiny quips and jokes in brackets, it's usually not a good sign

Might be why i've been a bit critical over it, just looks too fanboy'y coming from a project lead.

I do believe the key problem is what i kind of said before; too much love for own idea. He's avoiding any possible connection to classic MMOs, be it by re-inventing the wheel or by talking excessively over a feature that is still the same feature, just to make sure that it's a hip, new, fresh MMO that can't be in any way called a MMO.

Even if it's just another MMO

 

[Tuthmes]

Stuffs

Random firewizzy's popping up like oldschool! Hi Muyl!

 

[Muylaetrix]

sure is nice to see all these old names again

Random firewizzy's popping up like oldschool! Hi Muyl!

firewizzy's ? where ? random ???? i aiz (woz) a unique ice wiz !!!

/wave

 

[Deebs]

Well that was a very well structured, and reasoned post wasn't it.... And your a mod here?

Yes... because i MUST be a fanboy to agree with what MJ has laid out so far in his foundation principles, and the various posts he has made on forums about CU and his past mistakes.

Or wait...

Perhaps it's just that i agree with his vision for CU, and would like to see the game he proposes to make actually hit the shelves. Ya see... the whole point of him laying out his design principles and vision, and then backing them up in conversations with those interested on various forums... is so that people can make an informed choice up front about if they want to support that vision or not.

I personally feel thaty MJ has made some awfull decisions in the past, and that he certainly shoulders some blame for what happened to both DAOC and WAR. I am certainly no "fanboy"
However, i also believe, having read a great deal of his writing about those times, that he has learned some lessons.

So far, i agree with everything he has laid out in his articles about CU, and i have been iompressed with his willingness to admit to his failings in the past. I completely agree with his thoughts on game design, and i find his vision for this game compeling, and believe that if he does what he says he will do, and makes the game he is talking about making, the way he wants to make it... it will be a game i would enjoy.

Thus, i will be willing to back it.

How this affects you enough to drive you to comment on me personally is beyond me. Consider yourself reported.


Well look at that... a well thought out post from an ex mod...

Urgat,

Being a mod doesn't mean one cannot criticise. Being called a fanboy is personal?

 

[svartalf]

← PreviousNext →

Foundational Principle #9 – Forced Socialization was good, then bad. Is it time for a comeback?
Posted on February 28, 2013 by Patrick Doring

Over the decades MUDs evolved from their mostly solo-friendly roots to the first generation of MMORPGs (Meridian 59, UO, EQ, etc.) where group play was not only encouraged but quickly became a necessary component to leveling up characters and gaining the best gear. More recently, the genre has further evolved (or devolved, in many peoples’ opinions) to where solo-play to level cap is not only possible but can be the most efficient way to do so when one factors in the leveling time that is “lost” when players seek a group, getting that group organized, choosing the right targets, etc. Additionally, when you also factor in things such as“ninja looting,” at times seemingly endless debate about tactics, targets, etc., solo-play becomes an even more appealing behavior. Dark Age of Camelot certainly was a pacesetter in establishing this trend since back then, we specifically wanted to make the leveling grind less rugged than in Everquest for example, by decreasing the amount of time people needed to spend between fights, no long boat rides, etc. Finally, as games that are more recent have blurred (or shattered) class distinctions, grouping within MMOPRGs is probably at an all-time low, especially for players who are not part of guilds or the like.

While many players have enjoyed this change, especially at the beginning of this rather slippery slope(for example, I’ve always been a solo player), one of the things that I have been pondering over the years is what has been lost because of these changes. IMO, for the purposes of this FP, it boils down to two words, community and Community. I’ve already talked about the role classes will play in CU so I won’t reiterate that now but rather, I’ll address how both the crafting/housing systems and other group activities can help nurture and foster both types of community.

Over the years, I have both written and spoken about the use of community and Community as non-interchangeable words.Here, I will use the word Community to refer to the current supporters of what will become CU’s core players if our Kickstarter successfully funds.While these Foundational Principles are the first step in helping to build a Community for CU, they are simply good first steps as the building of a true Community will take more time and effort than my simply waxing poetic about the MMORPG we hope to create. However, when taken as a whole, these FPs, my interviews, talking/interacting with players on forums has already created a small but energized player base with a number of players already setting up fan sites, helping spread the word about CU on forums, guilds talking about the game, etc. The best part of this for me is that while they are helping to build our Community, small as it is right now, I have also been getting gathering of useful feedback, suggestions, etc. that have been quite helpful in both validating my vision for CU and exciting the CSE team. While these methods aren’t forced on the players in the same manner that long boat rids, lengthy downtime between encounters, etc. were in certain MMORPGS, the results are quite welcome and similar; we have a group of people who are excited and working together to help us accomplish our goal, bringing CU to life.Again, this Community may be small in numbers now but if our Kickstarter successfully funds, its contribution in helping to spread the word about CU will be anything but small. No matter what the outcome of the Kickstarter, this Community has my thanks and gratitude for the efforts that have made on our behalf whether in spreading the word or simply interacting with each other and me on various forums.

If we now turn to the word community and view it as a microcosm of Community, we would do it in a manner where each realm on a server could be considered a community as would the crafters on a specific server or even that all the crafters in the game could be considered a large community or smaller Community. If these players become as excited about their realm, their class and their server as our supporters our now, that not only makes the players’ time in CU both more enjoyable and meaningful, it also helps to build all the “Prides” that are such an integral part of this game’s success.

It is thus of paramount importance to ensure that the smaller communities in our game also have this same sense of belonging to a group(s) and that they derive benefits for doing so regardless of their class, realm, server, etc. In an RvR-focused game like CU, if players of each realm really experience Realm Pride and get to know and care about their fellow realm-mates, these same players are less likely to engage in such RvR-breaking behaviors such as kill-trading, keep-trading, etc. which not only help shatter immersion but also spoil the enjoyment of their friends and realm-mates.Thus, part of our job as the designers and developers of CU is to put systems in place to create interdependency that encourages players to work together so that they not only have the most fun but also enjoy the quickest ways to success within the game.

In terms of the crafting system, we want to build this interdependency not through creating a chain of required players (gatherers -> refiners -> builders) because that could lead to its own problems if one link in the chain is damaged/broken but rather to set up crafting goals and tasks that both encourage and reward group cooperation. At the same time, that system cannot prevent players from completing some of those actions if the requisite number of players are either not available or are simply unwilling to help their fellow crafters when requested. We will also create interdependency between the crafters and the non-crafters through the use of objectives that will require the help of non-crafters to secure, such as the special crafting stations in various structures scattered throughout the world, rare and precious metal deposits, etc. Along with the whole “no gear drop from PvE NPCs” principle, the same RvR-players who can go out into the wild and secure these objectives will also need the crafters to fulfill their gear and item needs as well as their help in building and fortifying structures. This interdependency is certainly a fine example of how forced socialization and grouping can work in a modern MMORPG in a manner that doesn’t seem strained and/or forced but flows a bit more naturally from both the IP’s perspective and the game’s design and principles.

In terms of housing, which I really should rename “building” or something more appropriate as housing conjures the vision of simply building houses, picket fences and dogs happily yapping in the yard, we also will encourage interdependency. Much like the crafting system, players who engage in building structures can and should cooperate with other members of their realms to get the best results more quickly. Structures that are geared to battle will require both crafters and non-crafters working together to build them rapidly as well as to make them as powerful and assault-resistant as their crafting abilities allow. Let us say you want to build a nice beachfront house (my RL personal favorite) on a realm-controlled island because it has the best views and you are hoping the market will appreciate so you can BBD it down the road (just kidding). In order to accomplish this, your realm will first have to take control of the island and then crafters will have to come out and build the house unless you truly want to take the time to build it yourself. Now, if you are a crafter, you can build the entire house by yourself but if you can recruit some fellow crafters to help you in your endeavor, not only will your team complete the house more quickly but they will gain certain benefits by helping you as well. The same holds true for building structures out in the RvR-areas that your realm has captured and is trying to fortify against a counterattack by the other realms’ forces. If you and your fellow crafters and non-crafters can build up the defenses, there is a better chance that you will survive the coming counterattack(s), hold the structure and reap the benefits for doing so for both yourself and for your realm.

These examples are literally the tip of the iceberg (hmm, iceberg, titanic, MMORPG, bad word association) when it comes to how we are going to encourage players within a realm to work together to accomplish their goals. Whether it is working together at a crafting station or fort, trading goods with other players, having well-defined class roles within a group and other such design elements, we want our players to get to know their realm-mates and by working together to in turn foster a true sense of community and Community. I believe that by truly doing so we can bring back an element of earlier MUDs and MMORPGs that the preceding years have greatly diminished.

Mark

Next up: Foundational Principle #10 – Sandboxes are great fun for kids and adults as well!


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