Camelot Unchained

[Ogrelin Blodig]

6,089 backers
$966,778 pledged of $2,000,000 goal
23 days to go

 

[Ogrelin Blodig]

There will be pve but mobs won't give you any exp.

 

[Raven]

source?

 

[old.Tohtori]

In the recent videos about combat, Jacobs said he wanted an Archer class but not if he felt it would be OP/lame [in so many words, obviously].

Then it's his job to de-op them

Things can't be OP on paper, unless you plan them to be. Then again one could speculate it's a cheap way to say "we can't afford it".

 

[Raven]

It seems to be plateauing at 40k pledged a day which will mean it won't make it. he needs to admit that he is wrong and look a bit silly in the short term but make a better game for it, or release some previously unknown ideas to boost interest.

 

[Aada]

Why is he wrong? He has an idea and wants to keep that idea the second he says OK we will add pve for you chumps he's in trouble because those backing it right now will withdraw their backing.

He said himself that if it doesn't get funded then so be it but he isn't going back on the ideas he's already cemented in stone and so he shouldn't.

I won't back the game if he adds pve and the eventual gear grind that comes with it to keep those that like camping a rare spawn for days happy.

I have neither the time or the inclination to go through a PVE gear grind just so I can compete with the jobless and students that will ream the content in a month get all the best gear and start wtf pwning everything.

10 years ago I had the time to sit and wait 5 hours to get a fins group and set my alarm for 5am so I could get one of the first spots and I also had the time to grind and salvage stuff to support my NS, not anymore.

Why in gods name would he add pve and repeat the same mistake that destroyed DAOC in the first place? Sure he could add pve and relive the glory years for a while but ultimately it would destroy the game.

 

[Raven]

Well people are not interested...they aren't donating...so he is wrong. PvE doesn't need to be a gear grind, it never was in DAOC. There is plenty of room for both pve gear and a crafted alternative.

You will be grinding for gear from PvP too, you don't think crafters will just give the best equipment away do you? Whether it's a token system or a gold system, either way you will be grinding for gear.

As for fins groups, it was faster to do it on your own, only people who didn't have a clue relied on fins lists.

TOA was terrible PvE in the start (already mentioned, thank Mr Jacobs for that!) but it was later toned down and was actually very good, nothing was to far out of reach for anyone and it was a nice break from PvP. People will just log off when they are a bit burnt out, empty servers/game that feels dead ahoy.

Nice touch with the personal insult because you disagree though, very true to form.

 

[Aada]

Well people are not interested...they aren't donating...so he is wrong. PvE doesn't need to be a gear grind, it never was in DAOC. There is plenty of room for both pve gear and a crafted alternative.

You will be grinding for gear from PvP too, you don't think crafters will just give the best equipment away do you? Whether it's a token system or a gold system, either way you will be grinding for gear.

As for fins groups, it was faster to do it on your own, only people who didn't have a clue relied on fins lists.

TOA was terrible PvE in the start (already mentioned, thank Mr Jacobs for that!) but it was later toned down and was actually very good, nothing was to far out of reach for anyone and it was a nice break from PvP. People will just log off when they are a bit burnt out, empty servers/game that feels dead ahoy.

Nice touch with the personal insult because you disagree though, very true to form.

Why do you think I set my alarm for fins so I could either start a group or join a group being started.

He isn't going to change his mind he's stated in update 10 he would rather the game not be funded then add PVE.

I could maybe tolerate pve if there are no drops and only crafted stuff but no way will I back a pve gear grind just so I can rvr. Doesn't make sense.

Some people like to wait till the last few days before backing.

 

[Raven]

Then it simply won't get funded

 

[old.Tohtori]

I have to re-ask Ravens point; where do the materials for crafting come from? There's always grind.

If the crafters hold all the gear, then you'll be grinding for gold/honor/peanuts to buy that gear, or grinding for items to make that gear.

He's making a game for himself, as the "no archers since they're op" clearly shows. Which is fine in a sense that you have to like your game, but it won't be succesful if you base it on your preferred mmo gaming style.

Would you say it's ok to make an MMO without PVP? If not, why the other way around?

 

[Aada]

I have to re-ask Ravens point; where do the materials for crafting come from? There's always grind.

If the crafters hold all the gear, then you'll be grinding for gold/honor/peanuts to buy that gear, or grinding for items to make that gear.

But I'll be RVRing not smashing the same mob over and over again for my beans to buy stuff from the crafters.

 

[Aada]

Then it simply won't get funded

Then it won't be funded, life goes on.

 

[Tilda]

I have to re-ask Ravens point; where do the materials for crafting come from? There's always grind.

If the crafters hold all the gear, then you'll be grinding for gold/honor/peanuts to buy that gear, or grinding for items to make that gear.

He's making a game for himself, as the "no archers since they're op" clearly shows. Which is fine in a sense that you have to like your game, but it won't be succesful if you base it on your preferred mmo gaming style.

Would you say it's ok to make an MMO without PVP? If not, why the other way around?

You're twisting what he's said to bash a game that hasn't been made yet. He hasn't released details on crafting, its early days, so who knows, perhaps players will drop them? Thats absurd to criticise something that hasn't even been designed yet.
Archers, he's said he wants it, but not immediately as he wants to work on the system. What he actually says is he doesn't want a class to have instant stealth. Its not like he's said, "I play a mage so am going to make them uber OP"...

 

[old.Tohtori]

Thats absurd to criticise something that hasn't even been designed yet.

Yeah, luckily it's not absurd to throw money at such a thing

Not to mention that would mean that praising the game, or saying it'll be good, or saying any which way would be absurd.

 

[Raven]

You're twisting what he's said to bash a game that hasn't been made yet. He hasn't released details on crafting, its early days, so who knows, perhaps players will drop them? Thats absurd to criticise something that hasn't even been designed yet.
Archers, he's said he wants it, but not immediately as he wants to work on the system. What he actually says is he doesn't want a class to have instant stealth. Its not like he's said, "I play a mage so am going to make them uber OP"...

Actually, either way you look at it, to craft something you have to grind something. Even if the materials drop from PvP it is still something you have to save up for, the crafter will want something in return for their product, be it gold or extra materials or whatever. Even more so when crafter is a separate class (I have no idea how that can work!) they aren't going to want to sit there making things for people for free. What with critical successes creating the better items (which he has hinted at) there will be an exclusive market where things will be expensive. Being a "hardcore game" one would expect it's players to want the very best. If they want the very best they will have to grind for them in one way or another.

Yes it removes one form of grinding but it also removes the many benefits of PvE. Building relationships through relaxing in PvE. Giving people something to do when they don't feel like PvPing, other than logging off, if people just log off then the servers will feel dead. Having a living PvE area gives players a sense of belonging, you have the lore, the areas, the NPCs. It might well end up just feeling like a over inflated BG where people just end up smack talking all day, they will have no connection with each other, except for the fact they are on the same team. Everyone playing a few hours here and there, rarely bumping into the same people long enough to get to know them. This realm pride he goes on about just wont exist.

To argue that the reason for no PvE is to remove the grind is absurd. He isn't doing it because he does not have the budget for it...which is fine but personally I think it is a massive mistake in the long run and he should have aimed a bit higher.

 

[Zenith]

The only thing absurd is your inability to see past your negativity. It always tells me something when the most active poster in a thread is the one thrashing everything about the topic, especially in a thread like this.

It's a bit over 20 days left. It may not make it all the way. If it doesnt, a shame. I personally think it's going to happen either way.

Second of it all, we have very little information at this point. Why the fuck are ya'll smack talking with such glee about information yet to be released?

We basically know shit about crafting. We dont know if materials will come from nodes being harvested, from mines/lumbermills owned by guilds, or whatever fucking way people have previously done it. Man, we hardly know what kind of fucking combatsystem they'll use!

Personally, I think there will be lore connected to the game. Their call of "no PvE" doesnt mean there wont be any mobs at all. Hopefully, there will be a huge ass dragon to kill. Maybe as a faction event. I dont know yet.

 

[eksdee]

Or perhaps PvE elements are stretch goals, or expansion packs or whatever else. As Zenith rightly points out - we just don't know yet. There's a lot of sense in Raven's post and if we were debating solid facts I'd probably be in the negative camp but at least for me, with so few games these days catching my attention at all let alone having a (for better or worse) marked impact on my life such as DAoC, I'm willing to give any kind of sequel to one of my favourite games of all time at least a little breathing room before I start calling doom.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Like said earlier; if people can glee over how excellent it's going to be, then we can say that we don't like what we're hearing.

 

[Zenith]

I'm not one of those who glee'ing, at anything. I guess my reply goes to both sides. Having a set mind, either way, when we have such little information is plain stupid.

 

[Hawkwind]

/wave

long time no seen bud ... or actually, we've probably ran into each other daily over the last few weeks as i see you are on Aurora Glade and i'm on Gandara
Look for the white haired human necro with " Gandara recruit [TDA] " (or something in that vain) above his head

good to see you are still around.

Will keep an eye out for you. Just leveled a condition necro myself. Flying back home tomorrow from LA so should be on at the weekend if we are still in the same match up.

Marricus - Ranger and Mirdif - Mesmer are my chars for WvW right now. Still need to gear up my Elementalist and Necro

 

[old.Tohtori]

I'm not one of those who glee'ing, at anything. I guess my reply goes to both sides. Having a set mind, either way, when we have such little information is plain stupid.

Yeap and i don't have a set mind; if the kickstarter succeeds, alright. I just doubt it. If the game isgood, ok, again just don't believe in it.

I'm just commenting on things that have been brought to light.

 

[Muylaetrix]

Evening Update April 9, 2013

Update #11 · Apr 9, 2013 · 51 comments

Folks,
So, another good day here at CSE and with our Kickstarter. I’m truly sorry I’ve been a bit pre-occupied the last two days but I’m almost through the interview cycle. I hope that by tomorrow night, I will have talked/emailed with everybody who wants to talk to us (and then we can give their ducks back to them!) and I can focus on our Kickstarter again full-time. In the meantime, I’ve got three bits of info for you all.
1) Tomorrow afternoon we will have another video update from Andrew. As you know he is building the engine that we will need for Camelot Unchained. He has continued to work on it and his next, but not final update, will show you something almost everybody has asked us for since this first tech update. The update is pretty sweet but focused not on the pretty but on the speed and scalability of the engine.
2) I’ve included a grab bag of goodness based on questions that I have been asked a lot in comments and via email.
3) I’ve got my Aloha shirt all ready to go for tomorrow! ☺
-Mark
Top Ten Questions: Grab bag of goodness
1) Do you own any other shirt than the same black one you’ve been wearing?
Lots and most of them are black. I hope that when I lose some more weight I can go back to something a little more colorful on a full-time basis.
2) While there be a Linux or Mac version of this game?
Maybe. Because we are growing the engine in house, by the time it reaches adulthood it might not be an easy port to those operating systems. Andrew is going to dig deep down (he’s threatened to write assembly code again) to get us every ounce of speed he can get. That might prevent us from a quick and easy port. OTOH, we won’t know until we are much further along with the engine.
3) How do you feel about Bufbots?
They don’t belong in Camelot Unchained and we will do our best to make their use a lot more difficult here. There is no way to prevent somebody from having a couple of accounts (unless we want to ban families, spouses, etc. which we aren’t going to do) and running two characters but we are going to go overboard design-wise so you can’t simply park a BB inside a structure and spam heals, buffs, etc.
4) Why have you chosen a subscription-model? Are you insane? Everything is FTP and should be now and forever!
a) Because I don’t want to have to support 95% of the server population free of charge, pray that 5% spend a lot of money and then find ways to get a small % of the 95% to spend something; b) Maybe, but I think it is the good kind of insane; c) Check back with me in about 3-5 years. There’s a major storm coming in the FTP space whether people/publishers want to hear it or not (well, it’s not of course). Besides, we will get a tighter community with fewer people who actually really want to play and stick with our game as opposed to a large number of people who are playing until they have to pay or they find a different FTP that interests them. I’ll take lower profits, fewer players, tighter community any day of the week. FYI, I said this same thing before, back when networks like GEnie, AOL, etc. were charging for games and the first “Adver-model games” were supposed to take over the world.
5) I think you need to give more to the $5 tiers, we’d get so many more people! Why don’t you do that?
The $5 tier generally does not get a lot of support in any of the game-based Kickstarters that I have looked at (please check out Torment, SoTA, etc.). Even if I was to give them something good (like Beta 3 access) and we did get some additional pledgers, that really wouldn’t help us meet our goals.
6) Will there be no PvE in the game at all? No NPCs, really?
There will be NPCs of course (as I’ve stated before) since towns need citizens, structures need guards, crafters need leather, etc. The world won’t be empty but NPCs will not be dropping tokens, items, etc. However, you will be able to scavenge/skin/etc. materials from them of course but again, not items, tokens, etc. There is also a difference between PvE-NPCs (cows) and RvR-NPCs (guards, human or otherwise) but no item or token drops. I also promise that there will not be PvE expansions with new tiers of gear drops that become required to complete. This game is a RvR-focused MMORPG and will remain such.
7) What’s the death penalty going to be like in Camelot Unchained?
For battles to be meaningful, I believe that Camelot Unchained needs to have a death penalty that stings a little bit. No perma-death, no corpse looting (there are rewards but that is complicated) but also - no instant rez (rez takes time), no self-rez (even for healers), dead = dead, when dead your body can be burned/magically attacked by the enemy (takes time) or you can release, no item decay on death (use/enemy attack based only), limited bind points (there is a healer + crafter mechanic that can come into play), “rez sickness” like mechanic and last but not least divine intervention.
8) When will you release the stretch goals for Camelot Unchained?
Hopefully Friday. This is a very important part of the campaign and we want to get it right before we talk about it. The obvious goals are well, obvious but the most important short-term stretch goal needs a little more massaging for its presentation.
9) I can’t find the backer’s forums. Where are they?
They won’t be opened until after the Kickstarter funds and we can survey our users to get their email addresses. The developer forums are closed to non-backers so email addresses are kind of important in order to give access.
10) Will there be crowd control in Camelot Unchained?
Yes, there will definitely be CC in Camelot Unchained and it will play an important role in the game. However, there will also be resists and I’m not looking to implement a system where you can CC a player for a year and a day. There also will be another important part of CC that I’ll discuss in detail in a future update. Like the idea we are kicking around for stealth, it is a little BSC. There will also be a limit on the number of buffs/debuffs on a player as per other postings.
11) Will there be a hard interrupt system in Camelot Unchained? (bonus question)
Yes, hard interrupts are confirmed but it won’t be binary. We should apply some common sense to how they are implemented.

 

[Muylaetrix]

6) Will there be no PvE in the game at all? No NPCs, really?
There will be NPCs of course (as I’ve stated before) since towns need citizens, structures need guards, crafters need leather, etc. The world won’t be empty but NPCs will not be dropping tokens, items, etc. However, you will be able to scavenge/skin/etc. materials from them of course but again, not items, tokens, etc. There is also a difference between PvE-NPCs (cows) and RvR-NPCs (guards, human or otherwise) but no item or token drops. I also promise that there will not be PvE expansions with new tiers of gear drops that become required to complete. This game is a RvR-focused MMORPG and will remain such.

i think this is interesting. this could mean that mobs don't drop the equivalent of 'tartaros gift' or something like that, but you might need crafting materials that are looted from certain mobs/npcs to make certain items. i would certainly not object to a system that has pve (killing mobs) to get certain crafting materials but the ability to buy anything from a crafter with currency earned in rvr only ...

 

[Ogrelin Blodig]

1 Mill and 50% funded!

 

[Aada]

Nice update with a few questions i had myself.

Also lol at question 1.

 

[Everz]

I won't be touching it at all, a game with no PvE even if it is grinding out some mobs just isn't going to succeed. As many have noted, it was nice to have a break from PvP by bashing up some mobs or farming some of the high end loot in DAoC, especially once ToA had it's initial fixes the game became extremely fun on both sides (I consider this towards the end of OF).

Not having it is a big no-no for me, which is a shame.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Only way this kind of pvp full game would work is if the whole world is a battlefield and towns/cities change rulers. It can't be the usual "enter battlefield", but a 24/7 battle all the time no breaks.

Interesting that the grind for crafters doesn't change at all and how they're planning on putting in moneysinks, what the point of crafters will be etc.

Also very interesting that they don't have a design yet, that should be done way before kickstarter.

 

[AngelHeal]

Mark Jacobs says they want to make the game feel as responsive as possible... (good!)
should they then take in consideration (current plan is 2 year development) that hand gestures will have taken a more prominent place on the pc market?

 

[AngelHeal]

Only way this kind of pvp full game would work is if the whole world is a battlefield and towns/cities change rulers. It can't be the usual "enter battlefield", but a 24/7 battle all the time no breaks.

Interesting that the grind for crafters doesn't change at all and how they're planning on putting in moneysinks, what the point of crafters will be etc.

Also very interesting that they don't have a design yet, that should be done way before kickstarter.

or he is changing the way of 'pvp'... lets battle who can mine the most silver in 10 min.. (pvp ) lets battle who can kill the most zombies in 20 min xD

 

[LordjOX]

It seems to be plateauing at 40k pledged a day which will mean it won't make it. he needs to admit that he is wrong and look a bit silly in the short term but make a better game for it, or release some previously unknown ideas to boost interest.

It'll fund eventually sadly.

These kickstarter fundings spike at the start, level out and spike toward the end.

http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained/#chart-daily

Here's an example from some other kickstarters:
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/#chart-daily
http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/cig/star-citizen/#chart-daily