Bush calls for constitutional amendment to ban same sex marriages

[Krazeh]

Just noticed a debate about this (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/24/elec04.prez.bush.marriage/index.html) over on another forum and wondered what peoples views on same sex marriages were.
Should they be given the same rights as heterosexual couples to marry?

 

[Trem]

FS! Me and Leggy were gonna get married in the States as well

 

[Doh_boy]

Just noticed a debate about this (http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/02/24/elec04.prez.bush.marriage/index.html) over on another forum and wondered what peoples views on same sex marriages were.
Should they be given the same rights as heterosexual couples to marry?

Surely they should be from a legal standpoint. If discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is ilegal then they should be afforded the right to marry as well.

 

[Gengi]

Very Hard question to answer.
In an instinctive, gut reaction, I say yes why not ? remember the old joke Q 'should Should Roman Catholic priests be allowed to marry ?
A 'Yes if they love each other'

So Bush is bad, this has nothing to do, or indeed everything to do, with the constitution (life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness).
Then I think a little, how do same sex couples have children ? obviously its an adoption, or an artificial insemination (ok fairly extreme there). Then comes the question of nature over nurture, would children brought up in a family where both parents are the same sex be disadvantaged compared to children in a traditional family setting ? and would their adult sexuality be shaped by their family background ?
I do not know the answer to those questions. And the rest that spring to mind in the same vein. It comes back to the children every time, I have no problems with the concept of gay people marrying, and adults are free to choose, but what about the kids they would have no choice.
Damn...
Bloody hard question...
I think I am going to prevaricate and say definitely maybe.

Later

 

[Doh_boy]

well as for the children-related questions I'd guess at;
Since homosexuals are, more often than not, brought up in a heterosexual family it's safe to assume that the sexual orientation of the parents will not be a lasting effect on the offspring. As for having same-sex parents, since children from one-parent families don't seem to be dis-advantaged emotionally from their up-bringing (in my experience) then having two parents shouldn't be a problem. Two men bringing up a girl might cause initial problems reuberty and stuff but I'm sure that's easily remedied.

 

[jaba]

I find this question kinda confusing because, although I have no problem with gay couples getting married, I often wonder why they would want to. My reasoning being that im sure somewhere in the bible it says that homosexuality is wrong (im probably wrong on this so flame away). So if it says that homosexuality is wrong then, why would they want to prove their love in the eyes of someone (God) that thinks what theyre doing is a sin anyway? because the whole marriage thing is just proving your love to god isnt it?


Discalimer: this message is my opinion, only my opinion and nothing but my opinion so take none of it to heart in fact if youre reading this you have done very well indeed!

 

[fatbusinessman]

because the whole marriage thing is just proving your love to god isnt it?

Not really, no. Aside from religious reasons, it also provides the married couple with various legal rights (such as inheritance, should one member of the marriage die)

 

[Krazeh]

I find this question kinda confusing because, although I have no problem with gay couples getting married, I often wonder why they would want to. My reasoning being that im sure somewhere in the bible it says that homosexuality is wrong (im probably wrong on this so flame away). So if it says that homosexuality is wrong then, why would they want to prove their love in the eyes of someone (God) that thinks what theyre doing is a sin anyway? because the whole marriage thing is just proving your love to god isnt it?


Discalimer: this message is my opinion, only my opinion and nothing but my opinion so take none of it to heart in fact if youre reading this you have done very well indeed!

But is marriage purely about religion anymore? Yes it has it's roots in religion but is marriage still about a declaration of love and and desire to be with one person before god or is it now about declaring your love and desire to be with one person to the rest of the world?
If/when I marry it won't have anything to do with religion, it will purely be a declaration of my love for someone, the same as anyone else who currently has a civil marriage ceremony. And I'm sure gay couples who want to marry want to do it for the same reasons, it's saying to the rest of the world that you want to be with that one person forever more.

 

[granny]

because the whole marriage thing is just proving your love to god isnt it?

Nope, that's not what marriage is about at all.

Marriage is about making a commitment to each other and the value of that is the same whether you're religious or not, or gay or straight. Either way it's about standing up infront of those you love (friends & family) and declaring your love for each other and your intention to stay together - if you happen to be Christian too then I suppose God is one of those that you love so that's part of the ceremony.

Only a relatively small proportion of the UK are religious (don't know the numbers but 10-30% at a guess) but a far larger proportion get married.

 

[granny]

lol 3 of us posted the same response in the space of about 30 seconds

That's you told eh jaba?

 

[Tom]

More important than sexual orientation is stability. If same sex marriages make more people happier, and improve family relationships, then its a good thing.

Theres nothing worse for a society than single parent families, broken homes, orphans, etc. It just breeds resentment.

Bush is just playing for votes, I doubt he would have brought this up at any other time than an election.

 

[Summo]

It's the Devil's work and they'll pay their penance on Judgment Day.

 

[throdgrain]

Beat me to it Summo

 

[jaba]

Hehe well I did say flame away! Points taken but still, what I said is more appicable to america as they are a lot more religous than we are as a country. But i think I have proved my stupidty so my case rests...I think I proved you all wrong and I shall now sit smugly at work and revel in my genius..hahaha!


Disclaimer: Im an idiot.

 

[Wij]

What the fuck is Bush doing ? Surely he has other things to do ? What a completely gay idea !

 

[TdC]

bush si teh ghei!!!11!

 

[Panda On Smack]

yay, go Bush

damn gays! ban them all!

 

[granny]

This is just the kind of thing Bush does though... here's a list of some of the stuff he did in his 1st year in office:

1. Significantly eased field-testing controls of genetically engineered crops.
2. Cut federal spending on libraries by $39 million.
3. Cut $35 million in funding for doctors to get advanced pediatric training.
4. Cut funding for research into renewable energy sources by 50%.
5. Revoked rules that reduced the acceptable levels of arsenic in drinking water.
6. Blocked rules that would require federal agencies to offer bilingual assistance to non-English speaking persons. This, from a candidate who would readily fire-up his Spanish-speaking skills in front of would-be Hispanic voters.
7. Proposed to eliminate new marine protections for the Channel Islands and the coral reefs of northwest Hawaii (please see San Francisco Chronicle, April 6, 2001).
8. Cut funding for research into cleaner, more efficient cars and trucks by 28%
9. Suspended rules that would have strengthened the government's ability to deny contracts to companies that violated workplace safety, environmental and other federal laws.
10. Approved the sending of letters by Interior Department appointee Gale Norton to state officials soliciting suggestions for opening up national monuments for oil and gas drilling, coal mining, and foresting.

Nice guy huh?

 

[Mazling]

morons.org is a good resource for news on this subject.
It seems that US law distinguishes between a marriage, and a civil union - that being anything other than a man-woman relationship. Personally I think a government should recognise only the idea of a civil union - that a certain person can choose another to benefit from tax relief for couples, esp. with children, and for inheritance related tomfoolery.

 

[nath]

Secular state my arse.

 

[DaGaffer]

6. Blocked rules that would require federal agencies to offer bilingual assistance to non-English speaking persons. This, from a candidate who would readily fire-up his Spanish-speaking skills in front of would-be Hispanic voters.

Well, I agree with that one. US law says you're not supposed to be there (e.g. work permit or green card) unless you pass an English test anyway. If you're a genuine refugee I'm pretty sure this rule wouldn't apply and if you're illegal you shouldn't expect access to Federal Agencies anyway.

Having said that:

My Darn Good Resumé
Accomplishments as President
By GEORGE W. BUSH
The White House, USA

* I attacked and took over two countries.

* I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the Treasury.

* I shattered the record for biggest annual deficit in history.

* I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period.

* I set all-time record for biggest drop in the history of the stock market.

* I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner.

* I am the first president in US history to enter office with a criminal record.

* In my first year in office I set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history.

* After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided over the worst security failure in US history.

* I set the record for most campaign fundraising trips by any president in US history.

* In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their jobs.

* I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any other president in US history.

* I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12-month period.

* I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history.

* I set the record for the fewest press conferences of any president since the advent of TV.

* I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any other president in US history.

* I presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed.

* I presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have.

* I cut healthcare benefits for war veterans.

* I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind

* I dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history.

* I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in US history.

* Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. (The 'poorest' multimillionaire, Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her).

* I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously go bankrupt.

* I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market in any country in the history of the world.

* I am the first president in US history to order a US attack and military occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the will of the United Nations and the world community.

* I have created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States.

* I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any other president in US history.

* I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the Human Rights Commission.

* I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the Elections Monitoring Board.

* I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of Congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history.

* I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant.

* I withdrew from the International Criminal Court.

* I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions.

* I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors access during the 2002 US elections.

* I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations.

* The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one of my best friends, presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEOof Enron Corporation).

*I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history.

* I am the first president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied, saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1)

* I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government.

* I took the world's sympathy for the US after 911, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history).

* I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe(71%)view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability.

* I am the first US president in history to have the people of South Korea more threatened by the US than by their immediate neighbor, North Korea.

* I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts.

* I set the all-time record for number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling their huge investments in corporations bidding for gov't contracts.

* I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history.

* In a little over two years I have created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided that the US has been since the civil war.

* I entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down, record unemployment being the most recent achievement..

RECORDS AND REFERENCES:

* I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas drug conviction has been erased and is not available).

* I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during a time of war.

* I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug use.

* All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

* All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

* All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view.

* Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review.

 

[Vae]

* In a little over two years I have created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided that the US has been since the civil war.

Probably an old and a Glen but this reminded me of the predictions of a US civil war starting in 2005 made by John Titor whether he's a hoax or not

Admittedly that list is biased against Bush but it's still rather worrying having Bush in power in the US.

 

[DaGaffer]

Probably an old and a Glen but this reminded me of the predictions of a US civil war starting in 2005 made by John Titor whether he's a hoax or not

Admittedly that list is biased against Bush but it's still rather worrying having Bush in power in the US.

In the interests of balance I tried to find a list of achievements for poor old George, but no-one seems to be very interested in doing that

What was particularly scary was an article I saw on the news the other night that had an American political commentator pointing out that Republicans are often surprised by the potrayal of Dubya as a demagogue in the European media; they think he's quite liberal!

 

[dr_jo]

Back to the gay marriage issue - Does the issue of children really come into it? I mean, do you have to be married to adopt? Or to apply for ivf treatment?
I think that same sex unions are a very very good idea, but without them, I think same sex couples would still apply for adoption, and that the issue of whether to allow that is a different debate.

 

[Tom]

In this country, you can adopt if your married, single, divorced, gay, lesbian, transvestite, black, chinese, etc.

Fortunately, the old 'cant put a black child with a white family' attitude of social services is on the way out.

 

[nath]

Is that actually a rule, or more of a guideline or what? I.e. is there a guideline that says "no black kids with white parents and vice versa" or whatever?

I actually know an american family who adopted a black kid.. so obviously they've not had the same rule in America for quite some time.

 

[Tom]

It used to be a rule. It isn't any more.

 

[throdgrain]

I new a South African couple who adopted a black child. They let him live in the house instead of the shed in the garden.
His mum though, she still had to live in the shed.

 

[Mofo8]

Why should we complain? Just leaves more rampant totty for us real men, eh?

 

[Panda On Smack]

I new a South African couple who adopted a black child. They let him live in the house instead of the shed in the garden.
His mum though, she still had to live in the shed.

heh

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