Buffy Finished.

[whipped]

Watched the final ep tonight. Have to say that it didn't get me in the heart as much as other episodes have, but I'm still satisfyied with the ending. I likeed the "What are we going to do now Buffy?" bit. The quaint smile on her face said only one thing. "I'm having a fucking holiday!"

Looking forward to the next series of Angel now. Should be good stuff.

 

[Jonny_Darko]

Watched it...very cool, don't get exactly what the amulet did or how, and I want that scythe!

Although it was an amazing ep I did expect more emotion...some more deaths would have been nice but I'm so glad Andrew made it.

Question: If all the potentials around the world became slayers why did it show clips of girls around the world "activating"? Surely all the potentials were there with Buffy at the time (unless they had missed a few I guess). Also Damini, they won't be born slayers - they'll activate at 15 or whatever - when they're ready.

That much power in the hands of that many young women? Surely some of it's going to get abused? (See Faith). Though I do like the idea mostly - you go girls!

Couple of plot threads not really resolved...Joyce's "When it comes to it, she won't choose you" speech to Dawn...what was that about? Doesn't sound like she meant about sending her away. Plus the thread about how the first was able to gain power and attack because of Buffy coming back, that wasn't explained either.

Spike's sacrifice lost impact because a) we know he'll be back from the Angel announcements and b) it didn't make sense...his work was done so why not just leave before the hellmouth went all implody?

 

[Durzel]

Unfortunately (particularly with Season 7) BtVS has never put much stock in continuity, which put a lot of people off - myself included.

There were a great many plot developments in Season 7 that either made no sense, or were left unanswered. Why did ghosty Joyce appear to Dawn and give the whole "When it comes to it, she won't choose you"? Why did The First send out one ubervamp in the middle of the season? How was it suddenly possible to dust thousands of these ubervamps when midway through the season it took Buffy an entire episode to barely kill one? How did defeating The First's army result in The First itself being defeated (at least thats whats implied)? What was the deal with the whole girl-enpowering thing, does that imply that they're all Slayers in Training as well? If so, why weren't they there as well? How is an ultimate weapon of destruction (the axe/scythe) allowed to be "just there" in a rock, waiting to be pulled out? What about Spike? At the beginning he was supposed to be a key part in The First's grand plan, and suddenly (after being de-triggered) he ends up being "just another one of the Slayer crew" - again, no explanation. There are several other glaring omissions or plot shortcuts that can only be rationally explained by the writers simply being too tired to properly tidy up their loose ends.

There are a great many implied inconsistencies as well. Since the focus moved from Sunnydale to "Buffys House", there hadn't been one instance that stuck out in my mind of Buffy actually saving a normal person? When was the last time she patrolled? Again, because character development has been the primary focus of the past 2 seasons - the feeling is that the writers have simply forgotten the basic premise of the show, i.e. her saving normal people from being killed, etc. If you look back at the first few seasons (up until Season 5 in fact) even though each of the episodes had a more encapsulated feel to them, they all had very clear direction and continuity.

Season 7 started very slowly, and didn't get going until far too late. Caleb, who had the potential to be a powerful mini-"big bad" ended up existing for 3 episodes, during which time (one can only presume) he just sat in the wine cellar waiting for Buffy to show up. As the right hand of an all-consuming evil, he didn't exactly wreak havoc on Sunnydale as previous "Big Bads" had done. And then there's "The First", an incorporeal mother-of-all-evils that can't actually physically harm anyone. You would think given this handicap that it would dedicate itself to corrupting the minds of the Slayer gang, turning them against eachother, etc.. but alas, it simply talks and talks and talks.

The other big problem I had with Buffy towards the running-down of the show (since Season 6 really) was how they had begun to trivialise the horror. The key problem I had was that whilst comedy obviously has a place in drama, the overuse of comedy just completely dilutes the drama, and makes it all too kitsch to take remotely seriously.

The above all said and done, I really enjoyed the character development of the show and was prepared to stick with it purely because of the history of watching all the previous seasons. But, I'm glad its finished really.

 

[Sar]

The "missed/absent from Sunnydale" potentials I assumed were those that weren't or hadn't been picked up by the Watcher's Council, were too inconspicuous or were plainly just too young to be considered a potential.

The lack of difficulty with the many Ubervamps (grrr-arggh) could possibly be explained by Willow's actions. The three men who created the first Slayer only gave her/the ensuant Slayer line so much power - and then offered Buffy the rest for the upcoming battle when she went to have a cuppa with them, which she refused to take (the power, not the cuppa).

Willow's re-writing/trashing of the rulebook meant that Buffy et al all gained the full & complete power that the Slayer line was meant to have/could have had from the start. Which could also explain why Buffy healed nearly instantaneously from what would have otherwise normally been a debilitating/fatal stomach wound for even her.

The single ubervamp mid-season was a test - for both the First & Buffy. It wanted to see how she'd handle one, so that come the End of Days it would have an inkling of how the battle should go.

How did defeating The First's army result in The First itself being defeated (at least thats whats implied)? Well if you defeat any evil person/being's means of conquer then it would follow logically that said being would be unable to present any further threat.

The axe admittedly was a complete deus ex machina, which Joss shouldn't have resorted to.

The lack of patrolling? I assumed she had continued on with it, albeit off camera. We've seen her do it for manys a year now - we don't need to be told/shown still that she has to patrol.

Why did ghosty Joyce appear to Dawn and give the whole "When it comes to it, she won't choose you"? Wasn't that The First playing mind games with Dawn? Trying to sow seeds of insurrection in the Summers' household?

The anti-climax with Caleb was mirrored on Angel this season as well - apparantly this being had engineered the lives and circumstances of the crew of Angel investigations all along, the raising of Darla, the birth of Connor, Cordy's ascension to a higher plane, all to enable its corporeal birth.

And it dies after, again, 3 episodes.

Too much story, not enough episodes methinks.

 

[nath]

Continuity used to be very very important in buffy. It does seem to have lost that in s7 and to a lesser extent s6. The ending seemed to be "how can we finish off the show without killing buffy (as that's been done) but without the knowledge that she's gunna carry on, on her own as usual, and get killed at some point later". The answer, make it so there's a lot more slayers, that way, she's one of a group of a load of girls. The problem is, they didn't really bother explaining it well. As you said durz, secret axe thing, super power, willow does mojo to give power to all potentials. "These were rules made by some powerful guy, willows more powerful so we'll change the rules". Well ok great.

One thing always seems evident in the Buffyverse, nothing comes for free. No doubt if they were planning on making an 8th, there would be consequences for having all of those slayers, it would knock everything out of balance etc. The writers seem to just wanna wrap it up so we can think "ahh, happy ending" without explaining it. Similar to ending a long drawn out story with "I woke up and it was all a dream".


edit: Sar yeah, you could be right about taking on the uber vamps. But how come Giles/Wossisname could take them on, they're still significantly weaker than a standard slayer, let alone some beefed up one...

 

[Damini]

What does the dues ex bit mean? Been reading it a lot recently, and it's still not twigged.

 

[Jonny_Darko]

Originally posted by Sar
The axe admittedly was a complete deus ex machina, which Joss shouldn't have resorted to.

No.

The axe/scythe has been around in Slayer lore for a while now...have you read Fray (future slayer)? That's the weapon she's presented with, "The Slayer's Weapon", "the one link to the slayer heritage".

And this was written at least a couple of years ago now - it's not an "aaargh, quick, I've run out of ideas, quick let's find a magic sword" moment for Joss - he doesn't have them - plus they already ridiculed that concept with that Angel ep where he went Raiders Of The Lost Ark.

btw: Fray's out as a Titan Books graphic novel soon.

 

[nath]

But were we supposed to know this magically? Shouldn't they have explained it a bit more. It was a bit out of the blue, as far as the tv show goes.

 

[Jonny_Darko]

Originally posted by nath
The writers seem to just wanna wrap it up so we can think "ahh, happy ending" without explaining it.


edit: Sar yeah, you could be right about taking on the uber vamps. But how come Giles/Wossisname could take them on, they're still significantly weaker than a standard slayer, let alone some beefed up one...

They've ALWAYS, ALWAYS gone on about the buffy being alone thing. It's been the theme from the start and has come up in almost every episode - so it makes perfect sense. Why SHOULD it be only one? It's like the episode "Checkpoint" in Season 5 when she took over the council...when needs dictate, times should change, hanging on to tradition for tradition's sake is not wise, and Buffy figured what the hell...she had the essence of the slayer in the scythe, she had a witch more powerful than the shadowmen who originally created the slayer...so why not?

And as for Giles and Wood, I thought they were Ubervamps at first but then they cut back and it turned out they were "just" bringers? Need to rewatch to make sure I think.

 

[nath]

Well ok then. My main point is, none of this was all that clear from watching it. Story-wise it may well have fit together ok, but they didn't present it like that. That's what the problem is/was.

 

[Sar]

Originally posted by Damini
What does the dues ex bit mean? Been reading it a lot recently, and it's still not twigged.

Deus Ex Machina: Greek, means literally "Ghost from the machine".

Refers to the greek tradition of working the heroes of their plays into unwinnable situations, just to have some completely unrelated thing (usually a god of some sort) rescue them, and make everything ok.

 

[Sar]

Originally posted by Jonny_Darko
No.

The axe/scythe has been around in Slayer lore for a while now...have you read Fray (future slayer)? That's the weapon she's presented with, "The Slayer's Weapon", "the one link to the slayer heritage".

Having restricted myself to the series (Buffy & Angel) and not read any of the books, which I'm sure is the same for a lot of the viewers, then unless it has been alluded to onscreen, which tbh I can't remember it being done so, then it is, within the context of the series, a D.E.M.

I always take the series itself as canon, with books etc being possibilities within the same universe.

 

[bodhi]

Originally posted by Sar
Deus Ex Machina: Greek, means literally "Ghost from the machine".

It's actually Latin, and means "God out of the Machine".


It's amazing what good games can do for your classics knowledge.

 

[nath]

lol, what game? (I assume Deus Ex, but I don't remember it there..)

 

[bodhi]

It was primarily Deus Ex. I thought it was a cool phrase, so renamed my profile on my phone "Deus Ex" (it's still called that). I thought it would be prudent to find out what it means just in case people asked.

There was also a game back in the Speccy games called "Deus Ex Machina".

 

[nath]

People always give me weird looks when they notice the "Schweinhünt" that is my phone logo :/

 

[Sar]

Originally posted by bodhi
It's actually Latin, and means "God out of the Machine".


It's amazing what good games can do for your classics knowledge.

The language is latin, yes (I know, studied it for 7 years in school), but the concept itself is Greek in origin.

And yes, it can mean God too



PS: Deus Ex was superb.

 

[Embattle]

It has now dragged on for too long

 

[gremlin]

Originally posted by Embattle
It has now dragged on for too long

Buffy? Or the pointless willy-waving over latin phrases?

 

[dysfunction]

Originally posted by gremlin
Buffy? Or the pointless willy-waving over latin phrases?

All 4 options

 

[Jonny_Darko]

Originally posted by Sar
I always take the series itself as canon, with books etc being possibilities within the same universe.

Normally I'd agree with you but certain (few) other stories are pushed as official additions to what we see on TV. Fray is an 8-part comic book written by Joss Whedon, so it's not like it's some unknown author who's using the license and knocking out rubbish.

It's also really bloody good, so I'd advise you to check it out!

 

[Summo]

I've just watched the last episode so I can read this thread safely...

I only ever saw a smattering of seasons 1-4 and half of 5, but watched the second half of 5 and all of a 6 and 7.

The 'evil Willow' ending for season 6 (was it?) was the best ever. It should have ended there, continuity or no continuity.

Do I have to watch 4 years of Angel now? Am I missing stuff?

 

[Sar]

Not really - just watch Season 3 onwards, the first two seasons really weren't concerned with any sort of plot arc.

 

[nath]

Except that 1 & 2 are the good seasons, 3 & 4 are pretty lame.

 

[Summo]

Holy crap!

 

[nath]

11k for spikes oldskool punk rocker outfit.. fuck me.

God knows how much the leather jacket would go for..

 

[Jonny_Darko]

Summo, yes it's worth watching all of Angel but more important that you watch earlier Buffy that you've missed...if you think evil Willow was bad? I've never seen a series end as powerfully as series 2 of Buffy and season 3's just a ride all the way through.

Angel takes its time to get going - some fantastic eps in 1 and 2 but really takes off in Season 3...Season 4 was just incredible though.

 

[Durzel]

Originally posted by nath
11k for spikes oldskool punk rocker outfit.. fuck me.

God knows how much the leather jacket would go for..

It probably cost $thousands to begin with, so Lord only knows.

 

[nath]

Já and the first thing they did when they bought it was chuck it on the ground and drive over it several times :/

 

[dysfunction]

Originally posted by Jonny_Darko
Summo, yes it's worth watching all of Angel but more important that you watch earlier Buffy that you've missed...if you think evil Willow was bad? I've never seen a series end as powerfully as series 2 of Buffy and season 3's just a ride all the way through.

Angel takes its time to get going - some fantastic eps in 1 and 2 but really takes off in Season 3...Season 4 was just incredible though.

I must have watched a different version.

Cos I've found that in Buffy and Angel that the acting is horrendous, the fighting is comical (as all the bad guys and as thick as pig sh1t) , the story line is weak and predictable....

I really cant see the appeal...

tbh