Asylum Seekers; Yay or Nay?

[Bodhi]

I think I pointed out all that in the post above. And it still doesn't answer the question of who you would fight for, because they're all mostly awful unless you're a Kurd.

As for Jordan, they can carry out airstrikes and a few bits around the edges, but they haven't got the bodies to take and hold territory from ISIS. Iran could do it, Turkey could do it. Neither will.

Jordan are doing a little more than that, pretty sure I read that they were arming refugees to help them take back their homeland.

 

[Bodhi]

It's just a mechanism which is being used by people to justify doing fuck all

- Homeless people?
Homelessness has been on the increase for ages, why does it take this for us to notice and do something about it?
- Army personal mis-treated?
See above
- Syrians with designer clothing & phones
Yeah, Syria was relatively wealthy, they come with their stuff, their best stuff, why are you surprised?
- Muslims?!!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!
Firstly, not ALL are Muslims, secondly, there's a great deal of extremists groups that they can join out there if they were extremists.
- Why aren't they fighting for their country?
No group that represents them in the conflict.
- Why don't they stop in places like Turkey?
Conflict, and persecution, and there's still millions there.
- We're full!?!?!
2% of Britain is built upon - and how do you think Germany/Austria is dealing with it? - They're erecting tents left right and centre, and after speaking to some Germans, all this shit about 'they need them' is bullshit, only a handful of towns 'need' them.

The thing is we aren't doing fuck all though? We are sending more international aid to Syria than just about any other nation (three times as much as the oh so honourable Germans who love the idea of lots of low cost labour), and we're going to take in another 20,000 - however unlike Germany and Sweden who are telling refugees they are all welcome, yet leaving them to travel to Germany and Sweden on their own, pushing them into the hands of the people smugglers and into rickety dinghies on the Med - we're taking them from the camps themselves and picking those most in need, completely bypassing the people traffickers.

That to me sounds like a far more moral solution than leaving people to it until they get to Germany.

 

[DaGaffer]

Jordan are doing a little more than that, pretty sure I read that they were arming refugees to help them take back their homeland.

Not enough.

 

[Gwadien]

I did no such thing, where is my sarcasm (is it because I said surprise!)? That isn't sarcasm it's proving me right before I clicked the list of who agreed If it isn't too personal and if you don't terribly mind could you tell me how old you are @Gwadien? Not so I can take the piss I just want to know the age of people with such strong liberal feelings, I know Scouse is an old fucker. Edit - (an old Scouse, Labour fucker )

I get the relevance of this, and you'll respond with 'Oh, when I were a kid, we were the same' I seriously think this generation is a little bit different, people are seriously taking right-left wing sides on all discussions, whereas in the past, people tended to take the 'meh' get on with my job approach, 21, but let's keep this on topic!

The point I'm trying to make here is that you bleeding heart liberals can be just that because people fought for your right to be that. Does that make any sense? Do you understand? @Scouse people were smart enough to realise that if they didn't fight then they were fucked, clearly a lot smarter than most nowadays who seem to think that running is better. Running can't continue surely? Run forever in every country there is a war or problem?

Japan is a pacifist nation, you think if China attacked they would run? Would they fuck, how about all of the wars there have ever been, the majority of those countries people have fought, all bar one deciding factor which I will not say or point out because I aren't what everyone will scream if I do.

You're missing my (maybe our) point, I'm not against justified wars, WW2 being the last one, and WW1 not counting (because it was about aristocrats losing their shit about playground politics, thus millions losing their lives)

Even so, WW2 was a justified war in hindsight, but anyway, you used the example of Syria, if a civil war broke out in the UK between Supreme Lord David Cameron and Justin Welby, would I leave the country, or would I fight?

Since Supreme Lord David Cameron is a dictator and is oppressive, I wouldn't side with him, nor am I a Christian, so I wouldn't side with Welby.

If normal David Cameron said look guys, we're going to invade Lebanon because they've become Communist, and I need you all to join the army, I'd leave.

If Lebanon directly attacked us (Not indirectly, so no, selling oil to the wrong people doesn't count) then yes, I would do something about it.

This is where I draw the line with @Scouse he has a belief that humans are better than that they currently are, so he'll act in the manner which he believes they should, whereas I think the same, and know that war doesn't fix anything, but your life is more important than your principles, I'm not ready to be Che Guevara.

Another edit - Does anyone have any idea roughly on how strong the ISIS force is? It obviously isn't a small group.

I think I remember seeing something on Wikipedia about 100,000.

 

[DaGaffer]

The thing is we aren't doing fuck all though? We are sending more international aid to Syria than just about any other nation (three times as much as the oh so honourable Germans who love the idea of lots of low cost labour), and we're going to take in another 20,000 - however unlike Germany and Sweden who are telling refugees they are all welcome, yet leaving them to travel to Germany and Sweden on their own, pushing them into the hands of the people smugglers and into rickety dinghies on the Med - we're taking them from the camps themselves and picking those most in need, completely bypassing the people traffickers.

That to me sounds like a far more moral solution than leaving people to it until they get to Germany.

A very British response; throw money at things and get other people to do the heavy lifting for you. The Empire's not dead after all.

 

[Gwadien]

The thing is we aren't doing fuck all though? We are sending more international aid to Syria than just about any other nation (three times as much as the oh so honourable Germans who love the idea of lots of low cost labour), and we're going to take in another 20,000 - however unlike Germany and Sweden who are telling refugees they are all welcome, yet leaving them to travel to Germany and Sweden on their own, pushing them into the hands of the people smugglers and into rickety dinghies on the Med - we're taking them from the camps themselves and picking those most in need, completely bypassing the people traffickers.

That to me sounds like a far more moral solution than leaving people to it until they get to Germany.

I love this, from a country which has a reputation for queuing, and we have a thousand or so on our doorstep, we'll go to the back of the queue and randomly select people, as opposed to helping those that have gone through the ordeal, and evidently have a reason for going through the ordeal.

 

[Trem]

I get the relevance of this, and you'll respond with 'Oh, when I were a kid, we were the same' I seriously think this generation is a little bit different, people are seriously taking right-left wing sides on all discussions, whereas in the past, people tended to take the 'meh' get on with my job approach, 21, but let's keep this on topic!



You're missing my (maybe our) point, I'm not against justified wars, WW2 being the last one, and WW1 not counting (because it was about aristocrats losing their shit about playground politics, thus millions losing their lives)

Even so, WW2 was a justified war in hindsight, but anyway, you used the example of Syria, if a civil war broke out in the UK between Supreme Lord David Cameron and Justin Welby, would I leave the country, or would I fight?

Since Supreme Lord David Cameron is a dictator and is oppressive, I wouldn't side with him, nor am I a Christian, so I wouldn't side with Welby.

If normal David Cameron said look guys, we're going to invade Lebanon because they've become Communist, and I need you all to join the army, I'd leave.

If Lebanon directly attacked us (Not indirectly, so no, selling oil to the wrong people doesn't count) then yes, I would do something about it.

This is where I draw the line with @Scouse he has a belief that humans are better than that they currently are, so he'll act in the manner which he believes they should, whereas I think the same, and know that war doesn't fix anything, but your life is more important than your principles, I'm not ready to be Che Guevara.



I think I remember seeing something on Wikipedia about 100,000.

No, when I were a kid I couldn't give a flying fuck, certainly not on the level you are. At 21 I was far too busy getting off my face and having sex, not a dig at you by the way, just that I couldn't care less back then (half a life ago).

ISIS 100,000? Then they need to be fought against, no other way for me to say it, running will not stop them now, they are too big and they will continue to grow. It is going to get mother fucking scary pretty god damn soon if they aren't blown up. Sorry but that is the way it has to be and that is the way it will end up being.

 

[Scouse]

The point I'm trying to make here is that you bleeding heart liberals can be just that because people fought for your right to be that. Does that make any sense? Do you understand? @Scouse people were smart enough to realise that if they didn't fight then they were fucked, clearly a lot smarter than most nowadays who seem to think that running is better. Running can't continue surely? Run forever in every country there is a war or problem?

If you volunteer to join the army then that's your choice. People who do that nowadays because of "love of country" are no different to the type of people who volunteered for Hitler's army for exactly the same reason.

If they signed up for any other reason than to protect their families then they're no different to the german volunteers.


Many people were conscripted on pain of imprisonment (we prosecuted people for displaying placards like "War will cease when men refuse to fight. What are YOU going to do about it?"). I've tons more sympathy and admiration for these people.

I've already given you my opinion on when it could be considered appropriate to fight. And you've still done nothing to address my central point m8.

Anyway - we should welcome these refugees with open arms - they've decided NOT to fight for either a dictator or join one of a number of fractious weirdo groups. They're better humans than the ones who've decided to stay behind and fight voluntarily for misguided reasons - either nationalistic or religious...


Leave nationalism and love of country where it belongs - in the hands of the poorly educated and in the quagmire of our bloody history.

Do you see what I'm getting at? Albert said it well:

We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if mankind is to survive

i.e. Nationalism as a concept needs to die.

 

[Scouse]

No, when I were a kid I couldn't give a flying fuck, certainly not on the level you are. At 21 I was far too busy getting off my face and having sex

He should be commended for being politically interested at that age tbh. We could do with a lot more of that in blighty.

 

[Gwadien]

Everytime someone asks my age on this forum when we're discussing something with opinions;


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUbWzkwGfgA

 

[Bodhi]

A very British response; throw money at things and get other people to do the heavy lifting for you. The Empire's not dead after all.

Yes, because it's only money we are providing.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...yria_Crisis_Response_Summary__2015.09.04_.pdf

 

[old.user4556]

Can I take this thread in another direction please, this is suffering from the usual Freddy stagnation. For those of you that feel that the refugees are fully justified and that the UK aren't doing enough, please detail a list of what you feel we should be doing for short and long term.

@Scouse @DaGaffer @Gwadien

 

[Gwadien]

Can I take this thread in another direction please, this is suffering from the usual Freddy stagnation. For those of you that feel that the refugees are fully justified and that the UK aren't doing enough, please detail a list of what you feel we should be doing for short and long term.

@Scouse @DaGaffer @Gwadien

You seen those Royal Navy adverts? The ones where they go around helping people like 'WE'RE NOT JUST ABOUT KILLING'

Well.

That for a start.

Go to Greece, send a couple of ships, tell the Greeks, look, we know you guys are in the shit right now, but here's some help, we'll take some of the most vulnerable families out of the situation which @Trem described, and take them back to the UK, we'll stop by Gibraltar on the way back, we'll put loads near the border and tell the Spanish to buck up their ideas or we'll invade, I can't imagine anything worse than getting to 'safety' after being on a boat for ages to find out it's no better from where you just left.

We talk to the Frenchies, we divide the Calais bunch between us both, let's not be silly, it's 10k people, 5k each? - They all might not be the perfectest people in the world, but it's a situation dealt with - Whilst that's done, invest money into re securing it and making it absolutely people-trafficking proof - thus restoring the industries involved.

We relieve Eastern Europe of their issues, we take some, and we send some aid, but also we help the other Middle Eastern nations involved, we send more aid, OR in the best case situation, in each major middle eastern nation taking people in German, French, British, Italian, Spanish, etc etc etc camps are setup which are ran by the countries, which we give them a Britain away from Britain.

We have a proper meeting with all the nations, decide which is the best course of action is - get a unanimous decision from all parties - the decision will not be easy, and it will take much discussion and protest.

If it's not an unanimous decision, the parties which have voted go against the general consensus agrees NOT to help the people which have been voted against.

IE we help the Fuljuamamaks vs the Dkoakofmz, Russia can't arm Dkoakofmz, if they do, we nuke them, jokes, we buy all their russian dolls and we burn them, thus destroying the Russian economy.

It'll cost, it'll cost alot, but all those lives.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNmkr-1rTk0

 

[DaGaffer]

No, when I were a kid I couldn't give a flying fuck, certainly not on the level you are. At 21 I was far too busy getting off my face and having sex, not a dig at you by the way, just that I couldn't care less back then (half a life ago).

ISIS 100,000? Then they need to be fought against, no other way for me to say it, running will not stop them now, they are too big and they will continue to grow. It is going to get mother fucking scary pretty god damn soon if they aren't blown up. Sorry but that is the way it has to be and that is the way it will end up being.

How? With what?

 

[DaGaffer]

Can I take this thread in another direction please, this is suffering from the usual Freddy stagnation. For those of you that feel that the refugees are fully justified and that the UK aren't doing enough, please detail a list of what you feel we should be doing for short and long term.

@Scouse @DaGaffer @Gwadien

Enforced EU quotas. If a particular country is unwilling to take their numbers they take a penalty, say €100K per person for every one under their allocation, which gets reallocated to any country taking more than their fair share. If people want to be dicks about it, the allocation formula is based on population density and GNP to shut the "we're too crowded" mob up.

Long-term; three year plan to re-arm Syrians who want to go back as part of an EU-backed army. Keep ISIS softened up the whole time and invade via Jordan and maybe Lebanon. Swell the ranks by offering anyone who joins up from Turkey or Lebanon the right for their families to remain in Europe or reconstruction aid when they win back Syria. Tell Assad he's on the clock and the real Free Syrian Army is after him as well as ISIS. Make it clear that anyone who takes up arms against them is fair game. Guarantee the Kurds a homeland and tell the Turks to fuck off if they don't like it.

 

[Bodhi]

You seen those Royal Navy adverts? The ones where they go around helping people like 'WE'RE NOT JUST ABOUT KILLING'

Well.

That for a start.

Go to Greece, send a couple of ships, tell the Greeks, look, we know you guys are in the shit right now, but here's some help, we'll take some of the most vulnerable families out of the situation which @Trem described, and take them back to the UK, we'll stop by Gibraltar on the way back, we'll put loads near the border and tell the Spanish to buck up their ideas or we'll invade, I can't imagine anything worse than getting to 'safety' after being on a boat for ages to find out it's no better from where you just left.

We talk to the Frenchies, we divide the Calais bunch between us both, let's not be silly, it's 10k people, 5k each? - They all might not be the perfectest people in the world, but it's a situation dealt with - Whilst that's done, invest money into re securing it and making it absolutely people-trafficking proof - thus restoring the industries involved.

We relieve Eastern Europe of their issues, we take some, and we send some aid, but also we help the other Middle Eastern nations involved, we send more aid, OR in the best case situation, in each major middle eastern nation taking people in German, French, British, Italian, Spanish, etc etc etc camps are setup which are ran by the countries, which we give them a Britain away from Britain.

We have a proper meeting with all the nations, decide which is the best course of action is - get a unanimous decision from all parties - the decision will not be easy, and it will take much discussion and protest.

If it's not an unanimous decision, the parties which have voted go against the general consensus agrees NOT to help the people which have been voted against.

IE we help the Fuljuamamaks vs the Dkoakofmz, Russia can't arm Dkoakofmz, if they do, we nuke them, jokes, we buy all their russian dolls and we burn them, thus destroying the Russian economy.

It'll cost, it'll cost alot, but all those lives.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNmkr-1rTk0

I can see a few issues there. The biggest of which is that you seem to be suggesting that one way to ease the crisis is to potentially invade Spain? Using Gibraltar as an entry point? That will do wonders for relations within the EU.....

If we were to allow in the migrants at Calais, do you honestly think that would deal with that particular situation permanently? Key word there being permanently.

 

[Scouse]

If we were to allow in the migrants at Calais, do you honestly think that would deal with that particular situation permanently? Key word there being permanently.

What's your solution Bodhs old bean?

 

[Gwadien]

I can see a few issues there. The biggest of which is that you seem to be suggesting that one way to ease the crisis is to potentially invade Spain? Using Gibraltar as an entry point? That will do wonders for relations within the EU.....

If we were to allow in the migrants at Calais, do you honestly think that would deal with that particular situation permanently? Key word there being permanently.

Sorry, I forgot the Toht winky face.

I think the situation at Calais is pretty dire tbh, I've been there, it's hardly going to put people off from going there, in reality the migration won't end here, and it's going to continue for generations, so why not invest an absolute truck load of money into improving it, stop with the pointless finger pointing and throw money at it, as opposed to putting up a fecking fence.

 

[Embattle]

Fighting an external aggressor is completely different from fighting a civil war.

Indeed, but then most European countries have had one or more of those as well.

 

[Bodhi]

What's your solution Bodhs old bean?

Invest more in the camps in the area, sending whatever resources Jordan, Lebanon etc need to cope. Give the Gulf States a bit of a prod and suggest they help more than they are already doing, then go and sort out Syria so the refugees can return home (we had a chance to do this before ISIS emerged but we declined to take it). The most needy can be re-settled here whilst we are doing that, those remaining in the camps can help us sort their homeland out.

 

[DaGaffer]

Indeed, but then most European countries have had one or more of those as well.

Yes, but Yugoslavia excepted, not in the modern era. But even back in the day, something like 2m Russians fled to the West during their civil war (and it was a lot harder to do back then) and half a million Spanish republicans fled to France. And in the case of the Yugoslavia, there's definitely an argument that the first response of any of the non-combatants should have been to get as far away from there as possible. If ever there was a good example of why "fighting for Syria" is a lousy idea for most people, its what happened in Bosnia and Kosovo.

 

[Job]

Sweden now has an open door policy, how do you Scandies feel about that, personally it saddens me to think the culture of the Nordic countries will be swamped by large numbers compared to population, only 10 milli9n Swedes, you could easily end up with 2 million immigrants in 5 years time.

 

[Scouse]

I keep "funnying" all your posts as you asked @Job, but nothing's happening

 

[Job]

I was referring to then new lad, unless there's something you need to tell us.

 

[Trem]

Everytime someone asks my age on this forum when we're discussing something with opinions;


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUbWzkwGfgA

I only asked your age because I was wondering if you had tried to suck your own peen yet, that was the real reason. Ahhh those heady days wedged bent in half under a table with my tongue just about reachng the tip of my helmet...*sigh*....now I'm lucky if I can stand up from the table.

 

[Scouse]

I was referring to then new lad, unless there's something you need to tell us.

Not really. It was just something to do

 

[Gwadien]

@Job I have some information you can tell your mates

Do you know what made the Roman Empire fall?

Immigration.

Seriously, the Huns pushed the Germanic people across the Roman Empire and being not as white as the Romans, they completely trashed everything

 

[TdC]

I bet they took a lot of jobs off hard-working ernest Roman folk by utilizing their mad 0ffice skillz yo.

 

[Raven]

@Job I have some information you can tell your mates

Do you know what made the Roman Empire fall?

Immigration.

Seriously, the Huns pushed the Germanic people across the Roman Empire and being not as white as the Romans, they completely trashed everything

That was more an effect, rather than a cause.

 

[Gwadien]

That was more an effect, rather than a cause.

Meh, matter of perspective.

I suppose the Roman Empire was on the ropes for a very long time, and they were unable to stop their blood being mixed when the Germans came.