Anti Muslim Protests

[00dave]

I see, so you can call me stupid, but I can't call your argument stupid? When it plainly is, for all to see?

To be honest Tom my main point in all of this is your retarded schoolboy view of being threatened with death. You still maintain you would laugh at it because you're sat in front of your computer nice and safe, trust me it's different when it's in your face and very real. The fact here is that it is something I have experienced and I doubt you have.

You seriously want any condemnation or objection to the parading of soldiers through the streets banned - and you think that I'm misguided...

Nope don't remember saying that I want it banned, I did compare it to me with a die hard style sandwich board if that's what you're refering to.

As for the US, I won't make any such statement. I don't need to, because I've already mentioned that I wouldn't dare use my experiences to stereotype an entire country of people. You obviously didn't read that, did you?

Oh yeah I read that but problem there is Tom, you do. In arguing with me you have pretty much claimed that America as a whole is intolerent and stopped integration a long time ago. You also mentioned Australia stealing aboriginal children and telling migrants to piss off because they're full. You're using glimpses of information to stereotype people there really aren't you.

More personal attacks. I see. Do continue, please.

My personal attacks aren't intentional but when arguing with someone with such a holier than thou attitude it's difficult to keep them in.

 

[nath]

I'm so fucking tired of religion.

I'm also so fucking tired of human beings.

Hear hear.

Lets run away together G!

 

[mr.Blacky]

I got bored and read this thread. Honestly, I only had a basic religious education at school, and I can see the amount of ignorance and media fuelled crap here, if you guys believe lots of what you say then maybe you should take some time to teach yourselves? You have the net, it's not going to cost you anything but time and maybe swallowing your pride and admitting your ignorance. It's sad that it appears lots and lots of us can still take the extremes of every community and label the entire community in the same way.

Are all British football fans hooligans because of a few idiots? If you believe in stereotypes and insist on using them in your arguments then you have failed before you open your mouth for the first word.

hmm the man with the a-team photo speaks the truth .. god we are all gonna die

 

[Trem]

Hear hear.

Lets run away together G!

Slag

 

[old.Tohtori]

Are all British football fans hooligans because of a few idiots?

They showed them in EuroTrip and the movie had tits.

Tits = Truth.

Ergo; All UK football fans are hooligans!

 

[old.user4556]

I know all you guys love football, but that's something else I avoid - I can't be arsed with the monumental fuckwittery that accompanies it. Maybe it's Scotland, but it's a vehicle for loutism and bigotory, especially with regards to Rangers / Celtic. I love the world cup and European championship and never miss them, but amongst my Scottish peers I am dealt abuse as an England supporter. They take it so seriously.

How did 22 men kicking a bag of air around a field manage to cause so much angst, tension and emotion? Get a fucking life, it's only a game of football.

 

[Garaen]

Just got this in an email, quite an interesting point (even if it is spam mail).

A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism. 'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace, and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectra of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics, who bomb, behead, murder, or honor-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque.

It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.

The hard quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant.

China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.

The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.

And, who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'? History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our posers of reason we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points: Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.

Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late

As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts; the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

 

[Bugz]

Did it end with: 'Please buy our penis enhancement pills!!' ?

 

[old.Tohtori]

As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts; the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

This much is true, but we also have to keep prejudice out of the rest.

Troublemakers are always the one we have to watch, but it shouldn't give the right to judge all and take away rights from the non-trouble ones.

 

[rynnor]

This much is true, but we also have to keep prejudice out of the rest.

Troublemakers are always the one we have to watch, but it shouldn't give the right to judge all and take away rights from the non-trouble ones.

In the real world eventually I think you have to do exactly that.

I dont think we are anywhere near that point with Muslims but I'm thinking back to the IRA years.

Because it was practically impossible to tell them apart from the law abiding Irish there were many restrictions placed upon them, people feared that any Irish person might be a bomber etc. etc.

Its just how things are - thats why extremists try to polarise people because if they get it to that point they win - the whole thing becomes a vicious circle.

 

[Tom]

If the email had more than a grain of truth about it, it would identify the German man.

The fact that it doesn't seem to suggest to me that its nothing but scaremongering bullshit.

 

[Garaen]

This was what was before the email

This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read. His references to past history are accurate and clear. Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read. The author of this email is said to be Dr. Emanuel Tanay, a well known and well respected psychiatrist.

But imo it could still be total shite, regardless I still think there are some valid points

 

[noblok]

It is a silly letter for the simple fact that terrorism isn't nation-bound. This whole 'axis of evil' concept with certain states being full of terrorists is fundamentally flawed and treats the terrorists as enemies which can be fought by means of a traditional war (as is also implied by the term 'war on terror'). This isn't the case. Those terrorist can live just as well in Germany, the USA or the UK as they can in Iraq, Afghanistan or Iran.

That's why the analogy to nazi Germany fails. The terrorists aren't mustering an army in a certain country. Terrorist organisations function as a network, not as political entity.

 

[rynnor]

Terrorist organisations function as a network, not as political entity.

Hmm - thats provably untrue - Sinn Fein, The PLO, Hamas etc. are all terrorist organisations that are also political entities.

I think the basic idea that the peacefull folk are irrelevant is probably true.

 

[noblok]

That depends on how you look at it, I guess. I doubt the political parties are identical with their corresponding terrorist organisations. I believe there is a difference between their political and terrorist activities. However, I'll admit that those terrorist organisations (as opposed to the likes of Al Qaeda, which I had in mind in my original post) have identifiable political goals and as such can be viewed as a political entity.

 

[rynnor]

That depends on how you look at it, I guess. I doubt the political parties are identical with their corresponding terrorist organisations. I believe there is a difference between their political and terrorist activities.

Well the High ups in Sinn Fein were also Commanders in the IRA - not identical but you cant seperate the political struggle from the terrorism.

I'm not a big believer in some massive Al-qaeda network - I tend to think its just the spread of radical Islam which is a very political force and has taken over a number of countries.

They use violence, terrorist acts and the threat of violence to cow whole societies to obey their twisted ideals - the paralel with Nazi Germany seems clear enough to me - all extremists be they far right, religious etc. are fundamentally the same in seeking to impose their worldview on everyone else.

We must oppose all forms of extremism.

 

[throdgrain]

Muslim Pussy

 

[throdgrain]

Well the High ups in Sinn Fein were also Commanders in the IRA - not identical but you cant seperate the political struggle from the terrorism.

I'm not a big believer in some massive Al-qaeda network - I tend to think its just the spread of radical Islam which is a very political force and has taken over a number of countries.

They use violence, terrorist acts and the threat of violence to cow whole societies to obey their twisted ideals - the paralel with Nazi Germany seems clear enough to me - all extremists be they far right,far left, religious etc. are fundamentally the same in seeking to impose their worldview on everyone else.

We must oppose all forms of extremism.

Its all the same thing

 

[DaGaffer]

are fundamentally the same in seeking to impose their worldview on everyone else.

We must oppose all forms of extremism.

Would that include American foreign policy then? If that's not "seeking to impose their worldview on everyone else", I don't know what is.

Its all very well banging on about islamic fundamentalism etc. but you also have to consider the conditions that allow that point of view to prosper; and some of the reasons to do with that are the fault of the West. Stop and search an Asian lad enough times for no valid reason and you will drive him into the arms of the radicals. Create a permanent climate of fear amongst the general population and you desensitise us the injustices committed against our own people in the name of "safety".

The fact is that Islamic fundamentalists are, in the scheme of things, a trivial nuisance, far more people are killed every year in car crashes, but it suits certain people (governments, arms contractors, security snake-oil salesmen) to put the fundamentalist "threat" on a par with Nazism, which is bollocks, and pretty insulting to the people who fought against it.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Would that include American foreign policy then? If that's not "seeking to impose their worldview on everyone else", I don't know what is.

Also to add to this; isn't it extremism to exterminate extremism?

 

[rynnor]

Would that include American foreign policy then? If that's not "seeking to impose their worldview on everyone else", I don't know what is.

They are a somewhat unique case since their mission statement includes promoting democracy and imposing democracy on a country is a different ballgame to imposing your rule on them.

I think the key difference between them and the extremists is what happens to the opposition - if extremists take over your country the opposition are likely dead/fled. If the US takeover the opposition eventually gets a vote.

 

[TdC]

If the US takeover the opposition eventually gets a vote.

really?

 

[DaGaffer]

They are a somewhat unique case since their mission statement includes promoting democracy and imposing democracy on a country is a different ballgame to imposing your rule on them.

I think the key difference between them and the extremists is what happens to the opposition - if extremists take over your country the opposition are likely dead/fled. If the US takeover the opposition eventually gets a vote.

"Imposing democracy" if that is alien to your country's beliefs and traditions, is no more acceptable, or useful, than ruling as an Imperial power. After all, if the Americans bring in democracy and the first thing the locals do is vote in the local warlord (which is what tends to happen) then while the Amercians can convince the voters back home of a job well done, the reality on the ground is rather different.

"Democracy" is the end result of a two-thousand year western experiment that's gone backwards and forwards to reach the point we're at now. The American failure is that they seem to believe its the natural way of things, indeed the only way of things, when the reality is its completely alien to most cultures; its not even a particularly pan-European tradition; its a north-western European thing merged with a bit of Roman idealism and ancient Greek philosophy; it means fuck all to most people and we shouldn't assume it does; and in its way, its an extremist viewpoint just like those idiots waving Korans around.

Now as I am from that western democratic system, I prefer it, am used to it, and am within my rights to demand the people who live here abide by it. What I'm not at liberty to do, is toddle off to the middle east and expect them to conform to my traditions. That's imperialism, and we're supposed have given that up.

 

[rynnor]

Now as I am from that western democratic system, I prefer it, am used to it, and am within my rights to demand the people who live here abide by it. What I'm not at liberty to do, is toddle off to the middle east and expect them to conform to my traditions. That's imperialism, and we're supposed have given that up.

A good arguement but I personally dont believe that all cultures are equal - I think it would benefit other countries to have the democratic system - if that makes me an Imperialist then so be it

I always come back to a little thought experiment of what if we had just discovered South America with the Inca priests still sacrificing men,women and children.

Would we A. Say thats their unique culture and leave em to it or B. intervene.

Once you accept that you'd intervene in that circumstance everything else is just a matter of degree.

 

[Ch3tan]

I wouldn't intervene, people do not learn from the mistakes of others, they learn from their own mistakes. It's arrogant to think we are doing anything better (even though we may be).

 

[DaGaffer]

A good arguement but I personally dont believe that all cultures are equal - I think it would benefit other countries to have the democratic system - if that makes me an Imperialist then so be it

I always come back to a little thought experiment of what if we had just discovered South America with the Inca priests still sacrificing men,women and children.

Would we A. Say thats their unique culture and leave em to it or B. intervene.

Once you accept that you'd intervene in that circumstance everything else is just a matter of degree.

I don't believe all cultures are equal either, but in the scheme of things there are certain moral imperitives where intervention makes sense (to directly protect yourself or others for instance, and stopping Aztecs cutting hearts out covers that), but I wouldn't equate imposing forms of government with that kind of thinking; after all, even we don't fit the American model of democracy, and we wouldn't be too impressed if they came over here and told us to bin the Queen as head of state at the point of a gun...

 

[00dave]

I wouldn't intervene, people do not learn from the mistakes of others, they learn from their own mistakes.

Clever people learn from their mistakes this much is true, but the really clever folks learn from other people's mistakes and their own. For example how much have we all learned from Trem's misadventures?

 

[Wij]

Clever people learn from their mistakes this much is true, but the really clever folks learn from other people's mistakes and their own. For example how much have we all learned from Trem's misadventures?

That mental impairments are funny ?

 

[Ch3tan]

Clever people learn from their mistakes this much is true, but the really clever folks learn from other people's mistakes and their own. For example how much have we all learned from Trem's misadventures?

The human race is not clever.

 

[Trem]

I am smarter than all of you for sure

I bet I can pwn each and every one of you at DIY and spunking accurately. I simply have the confidence to do the things I do without fear of anything going wrong, hey if we never try we never learn.

Queers.