Anders Brevik had a point...

[rynnor]

Stuff

Isnt that marxist doctrine scouse? Next you'll be on about proletariats.

 

[Scouse]

Not at all funny.

I explained to you that the title was tongue in cheek - as many of mine are. It is also relevant - because the demographic changes Anders Brevik decided to kill 90 people over are the exact sort of demographic changes that Labour sought to implement in the UK with their immigration policy.

Anders Brevik was enraged about cultural marxism. I don't support his actions, but I'm intelligent enough to understand that the man didn't "go mad" - he took a stance for what he believed in and killed family members of politicians in what he thought was a logical target of the people responsible.

So:

• Anders Brevik DID have a point
• That point was RELEVANT to this post
• You just pulled a MASSIVE emotional hissy-fit over it - like a girl

And yes. I can underline, bold and italicise things more, if you like

 

[Scouse]

Isnt that marxist doctrine scouse?

Don't think so m8.

 

[CorNokZ]

but I'm intelligent enough to understand that the man didn't "go mad"

Oooookaaay.. What would you call it exactly then?

And boohoo. Your ancestors colonized India and Pakistan which, from my understanding, are from where most of your immigrants come from. You invaded their countries, enslaved the people, imported them as cheap labour to the UK and now when your colonies have crumbled and they have started taking over your country, you come crying

 

[Scouse]

And boohoo. Your ancestors colonized India and Pakistan which, from my understanding, are from where most of your immigrants come from. You invaded their countries, enslaved the people, imported them as cheap labour to the UK and now when your colonies have crumbled and they have started taking over your country, you come crying

Way to miss the point CorNokZ.

I'm not "crying". I don't have a problem with immigration. I don't much care either way what the ethnic makeup of the UK is. I simply thought the UK Census results were interesting - and that they related directly to the Anders Brevik debacle - because that's exactly what he went on his rampage about.

Oooookaaay.. What would you call it exactly then?

I already answered that but I'll do it again for you:

I certainly wouldn't call it madness - and the Norwegian Courts agree with me.

Anders Brevik hated immigrants. The people he targetted were the people responsible for Norwegian immigration policy and their families - politicians.

It was a perfectly logical target.

 

[Raven]

The Danes massacred people at Lndisfarne and tons of other places, do you have guilt about that? lolplease

 

[Scouse]

Yup.

Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god.

I guess every time we talk dispassionately about war CorNokZ is going to have a massive period.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

I do find it interesting that there's a strong correlation between those who view immigration as a massive problem and those who live in non-immigrant areas.

 

[rynnor]

You invaded their countries, enslaved the people, imported them as cheap labour to the UK and now when your colonies have crumbled and they have started taking over your country, you come crying

Actually we didn't do most of that tbh. India wasnt a country when the brits came but a set of mini-states each with their own ruler and the East India company (not the state) just worked its way into that existing system. We never enslaved anyone in india and we never imported them as cheap labour - generally the work moved to india instead.

As to the rest I think we need immigrants if only because our native demographic is so bad - we just wouldnt have enough people to do all the jobs without them.

 

[DaGaffer]

Oooookaaay.. What would you call it exactly then?

And boohoo. Your ancestors colonized India and Pakistan which, from my understanding, are from where most of your immigrants come from. You invaded their countries, enslaved the people, imported them as cheap labour to the UK and now when your colonies have crumbled and they have started taking over your country, you come crying

Wow, where did you get your ideas about British history from? Mel Gibson?

 

[MYstIC G]

After a year, welfare should be a contribution to utility bills being paid and restricted food vouchers, no booze, no fags. Just food. Fuck cuddles and choice. If you don't work and don't want to find work then you shouldn't expect a decent standard of living, there are better things to spend my tax money on, Shaz and Darren's trip to the offy is not one of them.

We would disagree. They should expect a standard of living, we all should in a reasonable society, what they should not expect is any say over what that standard is or how it is delivered. I'm very much for the introduction of vouchers as I think as well as curtailing drinking and smoking I doubt any local drug dealer would be accepting them any time soon. So some of the smarter ones might start bartering but I doubt many people will want to exchange a bottle of gin for 40 loaves of hovis.

 

[TdC]

I'm sorry but my parents drilled in to me that if I can't afford something then I can't have it until I has enough cash saved. It was harsh as a young teenager but also ultimately the best lesson I ever had. If the hypothetical Shaz and Darren layabout jobless wasterels want a bottle of rum, or brand trainers, or a holiday that isn't to the beach that was created when the canal got a bit dodgy then they have to learn to savour the anticipation of saving up for it and better not cry about how comparatively shit their lives are.

-however-

if Shaz -working her arse off at the local burger place so she can pay for her kids and put herself through night classes to become a beautician and thus have a better future- comes crying to me that her washing machine broke and she can't afford the 100 euros for a nice second hand washing machine as her old one broke I would happily buy her a new one (indirectly ofc, my taxes would. or should.)

-however-

if Shaz has a legitimate reason for not working mental or physical then I would wish on her the full care of the social welfare.

which brings me to the fact that I believe that the primary problem is that there is not enough overseeing being done by said welfare state. Since the hypothetical Shaz and Darren know exactly where the loopholes in the laws and honey pots in the benefits system are, they're crazy to not make use of that knowledge surely? Why aren't they checked out? Why isn't the honey pot put back in the cupboard? Why do the bureaucrats not give a shit? Once I asked in Gray's Problem Child thread why the support services are not taking a much more active role in his problems, and I seem to recall the answer was because they aren't paid to care. So you have to be paid to care about your fellow man? Isn't that horrendous? Isn't that the actual issue here?

 

[rynnor]

People feel the social contract has broken down tbh.

Benefits were meant to be a lifeline not a lifestyle and its probably now too late to weed out the worthy from the unworthy in the incredibly complex system.

 

[throdgrain]

I do find it interesting that there's a strong correlation between those who view immigration as a massive problem and those who live in non-immigrant areas.

Absolutely. My brother is a proper Pink Floyd socialist, all for immigration, guess how many foreign faces there are in his little village in the middle of nowhere?

Yeah that's right, none

 

[rynnor]

Absolutely. My brother is a proper Pink Floyd socialist, all for immigration, guess how many foreign faces there are in his little village in the middle of nowhere?

The reality is that immigration is to the cities - the countryside is like a different country.

I was born and grew up in London so I tend to notice the lack of non-white europeans out in the country.

 

[Job]

In the past 2 years the immigrate population in my town has quadrupled, from about 6 to 24.
That is not a joke, I was dropping the wife off in Liverpool last week and one Muslim in the stocking hat and long dress outfit ( worn with black socks and shiny shoes, how stylish) was stood outside Limestreet looking very lost and alone, I looked around, ..perhaps 2-3 thousand people walking about, he was the only non white face.
In 200 years we will all be coffee coloured, but I'm sure we'll think of a whole new set of differences to hate each other for.

 

[Raven]

24 people?!

 

[Wazzerphuk]

Absolutely. My brother is a proper Pink Floyd socialist, all for immigration, guess how many foreign faces there are in his little village in the middle of nowhere?

Yeah that's right, none

Actually was thinking the other way round. There's little to no anti immigration sentiment in London, apart from a few isolated places.

 

[Ormorof]

Not what I meant, plus, the incentive to do a job is to live? Not think, oh fuck it, I can get 20k/y for doing sweet FA so why bother to work hard, if at all?

PS, I know it's DM, but http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nds-2-000-Christmas-20-presents-children.html this seems to have caused quite a stir on the website lol.

it may be the DM but this struck me as true:

"Said there was 'no point' getting minimum wage job and paying for childcare"

if she has to go work 2 jobs and still live in a slum never seeing her kids OR she can not work, see lots of her kids and live in a reasonable house

no sane person would chose the first option, and if there is no incentive to chose that option then whats the point?

in Scandinavia for example childcare is very very cheap and available almost universally from the age of 6 months to 15 (once it goes above 12 they mostly just provide things for kids to do rather than much looking after) - so if someone wants to work there is not much to stop them

a colleague of mine when i worked in Dublin pointed out that in Ireland (pre-crash at least!) once the third kid was born it was often cheaper for one of the parents to give up their job, claim benefits than it was to pay for childcare for all three which is a bit absurd

 

[Everz]

Absolutely. My brother is a proper Pink Floyd socialist, all for immigration, guess how many foreign faces there are in his little village in the middle of nowhere?

Yeah that's right, none

I'd say it's the other way round?

The difference from Wolverhampton to Cheltenham is unreal. Loads here hate immigrants, whilst I'd say a majority back home don't really mind.

 

[TdC]

a colleague of mine when i worked in Dublin pointed out that in Ireland (pre-crash at least!) once the third kid was born it was often cheaper for one of the parents to give up their job, claim benefits than it was to pay for childcare for all three which is a bit absurd

wait..what? how can someone claim benefits when they're living together with someone fully capable of working?

 

[Job]

24 people?!

At a rough estimate and I know them by sight, 3 Tamills in our local shop, two Indians run one Off license, about 10 Chinese, all chippies and the rest in various kebab type shops down the main street.
Oh and a muslim family near my mum,who have taken the house apart and forgot to put it back together.

 

[Scouse]

Actually was thinking the other way round. There's little to no anti immigration sentiment in London, apart from a few isolated places.

Hardly surprising. They can't be anti-themselves - and if you're indigenous and anti-immigration you're hardly going to move to London are you?

 

[Scouse]

At a rough estimate and I know them by sight, 3 Tamills in our local shop, two Indians run one Off license, about 10 Chinese, all chippies and the rest in various kebab type shops down the main street.
Oh and a muslim family near my mum,who have taken the house apart and forgot to put it back together.

That was exactly my experience of immigrants in the good old white Wirral - where my mum's (American) company had a 2% "quota" on black people employed that they couldn't fill - because less than half of one percent of people on the Wirral were from an ethnic minority - let alone black.

We had one black kid in our school. One. He lasted a year before being expelled because he beat kids up and stole loads of stuff.


Then I moved to Bradford - fully knowing that the "ethnic proportions" were dramatically different - and being completely not racist, at all, didn't blink an eyelid. And my eyes opened.

 

[Moriath]

Haven't had time or inclination to read all this.

But in my opinion you should e able to move where you want and live where you want. I'm a citizen of the world not just UK or Europe.

Yes I will always see myself as English but I don't see why man made boundaries should tell me I can't go live anywhere else I should want to. And the other way around.

 

[DaGaffer]

Actually was thinking the other way round. There's little to no anti immigration sentiment in London, apart from a few isolated places.

That's because all the racists moved to Essex years ago.

 

[DaGaffer]

Haven't had time or inclination to read all this.

But in my opinion you should e able to move where you want and live where you want. I'm a citizen of the world not just UK or Europe.

Yes I will always see myself as English but I don't see why man made boundaries should tell me I can't go live anywhere else I should want to. And the other way around.

What a desperately naive statement.

 

[Ormorof]

wait..what? how can someone claim benefits when they're living together with someone fully capable of working?

child benefit increased if only 1 parent was working + the equivalent of job seekers allowance (admittedly if you quit your job you had to wait a few months before getting it, but pregnancy lasts longer than the waiting period )

its a bit of a gamble, but aren't most people trying to maximize their incomes all the time? (is that not the point in capitalism?)

so the point i was making was rather than using only stick to beat "welfare scroungers" perhaps a bit of carrot now and then would do some good

 

[rynnor]

so the point i was making was rather than using only stick to beat "welfare scroungers" perhaps a bit of carrot now and then would do some good

I tend to think the stupidity in the welfare system is there by design to keep people dependant on the state so theyll vote labour.

 

[Job]

I think the problem with the long term unemployed in sink estates is they developonto a social underclass that think its perfectly ok to prey on the tax payers. I was in a house with four female doleys and 10 kids..the language was toe curling and all the kids were little fuckers...iheard them whisper..is he the landlord? like i was from another planet.