Anders Brevik had a point...

[CorNokZ]

Dear lord....

"Anders Brevik had a point..."

​

This.. Exactly this! What is going on in your head Scouse!? Don't bother answering it.. You're going on ignore! Tired of your rubbish posts!

 

[old.Tohtori]

And if you're really that dumb you won't realise it's mind numbingly boring. And will be pleased with having a job. The rest of us can't manage without the people who do those jobs.

Quite right, there was a great quote by john cleese...lemme find it...ah yes, from 3:34'ish


View: http://youtu.be/x8Afv3U_ysc?t=3m34s


Similarum applies here too. (not calling minwage people stupid, just that the theory applies on people who enjoy jobs that some consider menial).

Not to mention that Scouse likes to pop in on every matter and say that his way is the only right way

 

[old.Tohtori]

Posting right when you wake up makes for poorly presented points, but it's in there somewhere damnit

In a nutshell it's this; there are no lesser jobs, only people who think there are to bolster their ego. People enjoy what people enjoy, or at least don't mind.

And then there's lazy arrogant egomaniacs with half a brain cell.

 

[Raven]

This.. Exactly this! What is going on in your head Scouse!? Don't bother answering it.. You're going on ignore! Tired of your rubbish posts!

He kinda did have a point though. But then Hitler was correct about a couple of things too!

(That's not to say the answer is to massacre a bunch of kids ofc!)

 

[rynnor]

The money isn't the issue, it's actually doing the work. Fields of fruit remain unpicked because the lazy arses coming out of school think it's "too hard" to actually pick fruit.

I did that in Summers at Uni - picking soft fruits while camping at farms in Essex and Kent. Even then it was nearly all eastern european workers - tough work but cash in hand - work was dead easy to find too.

 

[Scouse]

He kinda did have a point though. But then Hitler was correct about a couple of things too!

Some people are dumb enough to think that an interesting and tongue-in-cheek thread title equals support for a way of thought, eh?

I guess I'm a little disappointed by CorNokz wanging me on ignore - but then, like the yanks, he obviously doesn't get irony or sarcasm - and if that's the case then the vast majority of my posts are going to go right over his head anyway...

 

[old.Tohtori]

To be fair it doesn't come off, at any point, as tongue in cheek, but i also know that written form needs room for explanation

I'm assuming you don't agree with the man then?

 

[Scouse]

To be fair it doesn't come off, at any point, as tongue in cheek, but i also know that written form needs room for explanation

I'm assuming you don't agree with the man then?

Nice pre-empt old bean!

I was just about to edit my post with:

tongue-in-cheek

adjective
1. cleverly amusing in tone; "a bantering tone"; "facetious remarks"; "tongue-in-cheek advice"

adverb
1. in a bantering fashion; "he spoke to her banteringly"
2. not seriously; "I meant it facetiously"

No. I (obviously) dodn't think that Mr Brevik chose the best course of action in deciding to murder a load of people for his beliefs.

However - I also acknowledge that Anders Brevik did believe that the ethnic makeup of Norway was changing dramatically. I used that in a thread title just to open a (hopefully) intellectual discussion of the British Census results - that shows what Mr Brevik went on his kill-crazy spree for in Norway is, factually, happening in Britain.

Now, that's not to say I support his actions....


Anyway. Nearly all of my thread titles are tongue-in-cheek. I'm miffed that CorNokZ (and Jeros) have thrown tantrums over it because of a knee-jerk emotional reaction. Just like people who think Frankie Boyle should be banned...

 

[DaGaffer]

Lot of ridiculous oversimplification going on here, but there are some cogent points.

1. First of all, Scouse is right about private education etc. and claiming its not all a bed of roses for the privileged is a bit insulting frankly; statistically, privately educated people are about 7% of the UK population but make up 70% of MPs, and even higher proportion of senior civil servants, QCs, Judges and senior military officers. The elite are the elite because most of them were born and educated to be so, individual stories are irrelevant.

2. At the bottom, its far more complicated than "lazy fuckers won't get a job". Back in the day, there was a process to give (for want of a better phrase) the working classes meaningful work. It wasn't a handout and it wasn't necessarily easy, and there were elites within the working class (skilled v semi-skilled v manual), put there was a recognisable hierarchy and actually, potentially, progression within that social strata and for some, up into the "middle class". In the post-industrial world, all that's gone. The ability to progress has been cut away and the drawbridge pulled up for huge sections of society. In the 80s a great swathe of people fell out of meaningful* work into, at best, mcjobs or at worst, the benefits system, and now we're dealing with their grandchildren who are institutionalised failures. This isn't a dig at Thatcherism by the way, she saw the writing on the wall about something that was going to happen anyway (our dirty little secret is the British have never been that productive compared to the Germans, except, ironically, during WWII, and that we were going to lose the manufacturing battle), and accelerated the process that's going on all over the developed world.

People worked in the past for relatively low wages because they a. faced societal pressure to work, b. worked in jobs, that in many cases required vocational skills and made recognisable products (hence, "meaning"), and c. saw a potential route to social advancement (that was rather more possible than winning the lottery or the X-Factor). If you don't get at least some of that back or a meaningful replacement, then you have to accept a gradual return to the 18th century; charity, workhouses, kids begging in the streets, because the Western world is running out of spare cash for social welfare and the ageing population, when forced to make a choice, will force politicians to spend what money is available on healthcare and pensions instead.

And for the record, I wouldn't stack shelves for minimum wage (not beyond the age of 20 anyway).

*"Meaning" in work is an under-recognised issue. Most humans like to feel work has value, a lot of employers forget that.

 

[Scouse]

*"Meaning" in work is an under-recognised issue. Most humans like to feel work has value, a lot of employers forget that.

HUGELY important. Hugely.

 

[old.Tohtori]

*"Meaning" in work is an under-recognised issue. Most humans like to feel work has value, a lot of employers forget that.

Can one judge that meaning in broad strokes though? While other may find shelf stacking menial and having no value, others may value that job.

Not saying that employers don't forget that, but also have to remember that there are a lot of people in this world who love putting a black pebble in a toy 24/7 and couldn't dream of doing a job that was more complex.

 

[DaGaffer]

Can one judge that meaning in broad strokes though? While other may find shelf stacking menial and having no value, others may value that job.

Not saying that employers don't forget that, but also have to remember that there are a lot of people in this world who love putting a black pebble in a toy 24/7 and couldn't dream of doing a job that was more complex.

We've had shelf-stackers for a long time, long before the collapse of the working class. That job, and others like it, were usually done by those on the road to somewhere else (e.g. students) or by...[PC mode]the differently abled[/PC mode]. Statistically, that kind of job was never done by what I'd call the working class. That's the problem; there are a lot of people who are not stupid, but not academic either, who are expected to accept this type of role in life or somehow they're a sponging scumbag. It isn't going to work.

 

[throdgrain]

Thing is, pretty much all of the posts on here (yours included Scouse) seem to bear NO relation to how a lot of people in the world behave. Do you lot actually know people who live in council houses? Who get the minimum wage? I cant beleive you do.

 

[old.Tohtori]

We've had shelf-stackers for a long time, long before the collapse of the working class. That job, and others like it, were usually done by those on the road to somewhere else (e.g. students) or by...[PC mode]the differently abled[/PC mode]. Statistically, that kind of job was never done by what I'd call the working class. That's the problem; there are a lot of people who are not stupid, but not academic either, who are expected to accept this type of role in life or somehow they're a sponging scumbag. It isn't going to work.

I was saying that even the working class people have people who like a monotonous job. This doesn't apply to all ofcourse, but one can't just dismiss all shelf stacking as universally boring and beneath someone when there are people who like that sort of work. You can't expect everyone to like it and that's a point that i agree on and that's when the people willing to "struggle through" work those jobs while others aren't willing to do so.

 

[Scouse]

Thing is, pretty much all of the posts on here (yours included Scouse) seem to bear NO relation to how a lot of people in the world behave.

Behaviour and motivation are two different things throddy.

I'm interested in and have been talking about motivation - because only if you understand motivation can you possibly understand behaviour.

Do you lot actually know people who live in council houses? Who get the minimum wage? I cant beleive you do.

Yes. I do.

Not that that matters in the argument I'm making. It's as plain as the nose on your face - look again at my post with the graph. That's accurate.

 

[Scouse]

I was saying that even the working class people have people who like a monotonous job.

Find me someone who likes a shelf stacking job. Likes it. Finds it rewarding.

Other than one of DaGaffer's drooling retard spacker sub-normal moron window-lickers*.


*I'll say it. "Special needs" my arse. PC and me don't mix. Not online anyway

 

[throdgrain]

Behaviour and motivation are two different things throddy.

I'm interested in and have been talking about motivation - because only if you understand motivation can you possibly understand behaviour.




Yes. I do.

Not that that matters in the argument I'm making. It's as plain as the nose on your face - look again at my post with the graph. That's accurate.

I'm not interested in your nerdy graph mate! And niether do I believe that you know people who do proper normal jobs, or you wouldnt post the stuff you have!

 

[Scouse]

I'm not interested in your nerdy graph mate!

So you're not interested in my argument throdlar?

You're just interested in what you have to say...

And niether do I believe that you know people who do proper normal jobs, or you wouldnt post the stuff you have!

I'm a statistical outlier. I'm in the 99.9th percentile but am from a poor and underpriviledged family.

That means that I grew up with people like that but choose not to mix with them now I'm an adult. That's because, through no fault of theirs or my own, it's frustrating and unrewarding to me.

I do not live near my family any more. That fact is both a source of great sadness and a massive relief.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Find me someone who likes a shelf stacking job. Likes it. Finds it rewarding.

Other than one of DaGaffer's drooling retard spacker sub-normal moron window-lickers*.

You'd have to define like, which is ofcourse subjectional

In any case, there are regular people just like you and me(heh, regular, you and me ) who enjoy assembly line work and other such "menial" jobs because they know exactly what they're doing day in day out. No surprises, no need for thought or desicion making, just a tune out robot work. Even without any source of evidence etc you can see how that isn't outside the realm of possibility.

I'll try and find a source for this, but it's not exactly google top 100.

 

[Gumbo]

From an employers point of view, if the minimum wage went up by more than about 15% I'd have to lay a fella off and he'd become dole scum.

If there was no minimum wage then I could afford a summer bod to do stuff around here for pocket money, gaining experience, working in the sunshine around boats all day. There's plenty who would like to do it, I've been asked on many occasions, but it would be illegal for me to employ someone on what I could afford. Instead for that lad it's probably a summer of playing Fifa and drinking in the park.

Abolish the minimum wage tomorrow and let market forces decide wages. I would employ an extra half a person a year, and I'm a tiny business.

 

[rynnor]

there were elites within the working class (skilled v semi-skilled v manual), put there was a recognisable hierarchy and actually, potentially, progression within that social strata and for some, up into the "middle class". In the post-industrial world, all that's gone. The ability to progress has been cut away and the drawbridge pulled up for huge sections of society. In the 80s a great swathe of people fell out of meaningful* work into, at best, mcjobs or at worst, the benefits system, and now we're dealing with their grandchildren who are institutionalised failures.

I dont personally believe this is true about it being impossible to progress - the system is still wide open for people willing to make a few sacrifices to gain an education and/or have enthusiasm and intelligence to get into work.

I dont agree with the crap jobs bit either - lots of uninspiring jobs can get you into something better if you grab the opportunities and there is a dignity in work that sitting around can never give you.

What has changed is there are less manufacturing jobs to soak up the unskilled but in such circumstances you have to do your best to not be unskilled.

I guess theres a fundamental divide here between those who think its the states duty to get you a job and those who believe its up to the individual.

 

[DaGaffer]

From an employers point of view, if the minimum wage went up by more than about 15% I'd have to lay a fella off and he'd become dole scum.

If there was no minimum wage then I could afford a summer bod to do stuff around here for pocket money, gaining experience, working in the sunshine around boats all day. There's plenty who would like to do it, I've been asked on many occasions, but it would be illegal for me to employ someone on what I could afford. Instead for that lad it's probably a summer of playing Fifa and drinking in the park.

Abolish the minimum wage tomorrow and let market forces decide wages. I would employ an extra half a person a year, and I'm a tiny business.

People get around minimum wage with internships all the time. Having said that, not really a fan of the minimum wage, even though the UK has one of the lower ones. Germany seems to get by without minimum wage.

 

[DaGaffer]

I dont personally believe this is true about it being impossible to progress - the system is still wide open for people willing to make a few sacrifices to gain an education and/or have enthusiasm and intelligence to get into work.

I dont agree with the crap jobs bit either - lots of uninspiring jobs can get you into something better if you grab the opportunities and there is a dignity in work that sitting around can never give you.

What has changed is there are less manufacturing jobs to soak up the unskilled but in such circumstances you have to do your best to not be unskilled.

I guess theres a fundamental divide here between those who think its the states duty to get you a job and those who believe its up to the individual.

You've missed the point. In the past, "an education" was an apprenticeship; you'd spend longer getting your cards than a student spent at university. Now the only way to get an education (practically) is via academia, which not only is a non option for loads of people because of the debts, its also devaluing higher education.

I don't disagree that the individual ultimately has to take responsibility; I've never claimed dole in my life, but in the past that was a strata of employment and education levels that made finding one's niche less challenging, now the middle ground has gone away.

 

[Scouse]

You've missed the point

Massively

 

[throdgrain]

I dont personally believe this is true about it being impossible to progress - the system is still wide open for people willing to make a few sacrifices to gain an education and/or have enthusiasm and intelligence to get into work.

I dont agree with the crap jobs bit either - lots of uninspiring jobs can get you into something better if you grab the opportunities and there is a dignity in work that sitting around can never give you.

What has changed is there are less manufacturing jobs to soak up the unskilled but in such circumstances you have to do your best to not be unskilled.

I guess theres a fundamental divide here between those who think its the states duty to get you a job and those who believe its up to the individual.

Shame I cant click "like" to this post two or three times.

 

[rynnor]

You've missed the point. In the past, "an education" was an apprenticeship; you'd spend longer getting your cards than a student spent at university. Now the only way to get an education (practically) is via academia, which not only is a non option for loads of people because of the debts, its also devaluing higher education.

The world changes continuously - we all have to adapt the same as people everywhere do. There are still areas like trades/building/chef etc. that still allow you to start low and work your way up and in fact most companies I have worked at in IT have people who did the same thing so I am wondering why you think its no longer viable?

I work with a scouser who started off in the post room and is now an IT specialist for example.

 

[Scouse]

I work with a scouser who started off in the post room and is now an IT specialist for example.

You're still completely ignoring the situation of the (masses of) people I've described. The ones who could never do that because they're incapable...

 

[rynnor]

You're still completely ignoring the situation of the (masses of) people I've described. The ones who could never do that because they're incapable...

You really think all the jobless are incapable of doing work?

 

[Scouse]

You really think all the jobless are incapable of doing work?

We're educated to believe that hard work can bring you the moon.

Which is a lie.

It's no wonder that people who are literal no-hopers - those with zero natural intelligence (we all remember loads of them from school - the kids who, try as they might, just don't get it) - find themselves surrounded by people who are better off, in a society that will never like them (we hate the dumb) and a society that rams rich people down their throat all the time - as a mechanism to "raise their aspirations" - when they know full well the things they can aspire to will never be in their reach.

Is it really that surprising that many of them go "fuck that" and opt-out??

The reality starts with this:
View attachment 10995

You can work as hard as you like, but you'll spend your life looking at people around you who will be better off - even if they have no work ethic.

But this graphic doesn't tell nearly half the story. Even people at the very top of the IQ scale are highly unlikely to meet their aspirations through hard work alone - as the educational system has taught them they will - because the priviledged kids of the already-rich are the ones who hoover up their jobs.

This country, this economic system, is set up to provide:

1) Mid-level jobs for the average-IQ plebs.
2) Great "jobs" for the children of the already rich and priviledged
3) Shit jobs for retards with insulting levels of pay

The very clever but not priviledged have to live the double wank-whammy of having a job that insults their intelligence and demoralises them on a daily basis because of this - but they're aware of the inequities of a system set up for a tiny minority and are powerless to do anything about it.

The clever keep working - because they know how hard and miserable life on the breadline is. But nobody cares.

The retards have no choice. Life is always going to be hard. So many of them opt-out and skank the world for all it will give them.

They've no hope. They've no prospects. They're lifes losers.

And nobody cares about them, either.

In fact, we complain that they won't quietly and meekly do our slave labour jobs, that we would never lower ourselves to, and just stfu and take it. The lazy skanks.

They can work - but what they're being offered isn't good enough for them to bother.

I don't blame them.

 

[CorNokZ]

But either way CorNokZ - it's a thread title.

Anders Brevik did believe that the ethnic makeup of Norway was changing dramatically. I used that in a thread title just to open a (hopefully) intellectual discussion of the British Census results - that shows what Mr Brevik went on his kill-crazy spree for in Norway is, factually, happening in Britain.

Now, that's not to say I support his actions...


...but if you want to believe otherwise and throw a complete hissy fit like a massive girl...

Scouse sent me this in a private message. "I'll provoke a lot of people to start an intellectual discussion! HERP DERP Let's get this discussion going!" after having quoted what sarcasm and irony means.. Just because it was a thread title doesn't mean it is not stupid and idiotic. Not at all funny.

"I hope a Kraut got your grandad in the Normandy and Hitler had a point!" LOL it is irony, so it doesn't matter! Cool logics bro