A Discussion

[Kinetix]

All people are asking is to stop beeing so bitter and have some fun? It never has bin about givin in, it's about trying to have some fun together (as a whole, ie. the people that play on the same cluster, not just your realm) and enjoy the game?
If you are destroying someone else's fun in the game (even if legit) there's something wrong with it? Then again you could be like Kagato and give a rat's arse about other people.

Yes tuth, but i also stated that not even 40% of english cluster are represented here, and for it to work, this flexibility and understanding, all of ppl would have to discuss and agree.

 

[Blow]

edit : Fiver if you cant post anything constructive here - dont bother !

You sir, are an idiot. Be gone, kekethxbye!

He isnt worth wasting the energy you expend typing a reply to him.

Even Soulja QQ me following me, he can make longer lines and ask some normal stuff then you 2 do, you can learn something of him Tuthmes and Cromcruaich.

Why Should Requiel know better ????? don't understand that enlighten us he posted on here with a discussion so add to that discussion Blow TBH I would love to know what goes through you mind seeing as you 1 of the people who introduced this kind of play.

Requiel has come here which I my view Goa has shown an interest in this server and it's problems so fair play on them.

So Enlighten us with you View Blow

Soulja

Because all threads here on FH are having QQ see at the 2 other replies on me just telling that, they dont give any
contribute to this topic.

Nearly everyone say they dont care about Relics, so why QQ about relics being taken.
Nearly everyone say taking keeps / relics without defense is lame.

So i agree on both of them, taking relics late night is lame, taking keeps in the morning/afternoon is lame aswell,
but even if i think its lame i dont QQ about it, i do not punish my realmmates by setting renaris to lvl 1, i just
continue playing the game, trying to retake keeps that enemies took in our frontier.

As far i can remember we have done a total of 5-6 AC raids from september 2005 until July/August 2006. Where 2 of those
raids where taking our own relics back home.

We stopped doing late relic takes as a CM GG because we wanted to fight enemies and where getting bored to kill guards
and a few defenders, and after 5-6 late night raids we knew we have upset mid/hibs for their entire life We proberly
would have stopped earlier with taking relics in the late night if there wasnt so much QQ about CM, that helped a few
of my guildies to stimulate me to continue with some other AC takes.

As you can read on FH we still getting blaimed by most of the FH posters when albs (re)taking a relic, so it for us it
would be easy to restart doing it simply cause we will get pointed anyway. (but we dont restart it ).

People play less, and whine more.... I keep my whines aswell, i could easy point out x-realmers and false play (either
via printscreen IRC as in game) but why should I , if they think its fun on that way they should go on with that untill
someone who will care and who will take action about those people.

 

[Tuthmes]

Yes tuth, but i also stated that not even 40% of english cluster are represented here, and for it to work, this flexibility and understanding, all of ppl would have to discuss and agree.

Look you don't have to agree to come to an understanding ^^. Take for example Tip, who has a twin brother called Aim. Now i don't agree on their playstyle, however i do understand it. All i hope is that they understand that it isnt exactly fun for me (when zergin my solo ass for the 5th time) and stop doin so for a whiled.
And if it's that much fun to pwn me, you can continue the zergfest the next day.

P.s. Soz using Tip and Aim here as an example :|

 

[Kinetix]

Hmm...I dont agree...are you really saying that there are less than 10 Albs logged on during daytime ?

I havent had my Alb account activated in a couple of months so cant check that myself, but im willing to bet that there are 50+ albs logged on during the entire day...so it isnt a pov thing...atleast not with my argument...

You can argue that no rvr willing albs are logged on during the day, but that is not the same as not having any people logged on at all. Atleast they have the choice.


Well, what he meant is that any rational person defends what is harder to regain. Meaning that a enemy relic requires alot of time to regain, while your own relic only requires 1 keep to be taken. If it had been the other way around im pretty sure Albs would have defended their own relic instead.

/Charmangle

Shark, for the 1rst point ( and lets not drag this back and foward discussion on this thread, pm me or something) if you read my defenition of AC RR it dosent say numbers.
What it does say " a time were a realm benifits of a much higher population then another". Dosent matter if there were 20 albs online if there was 60 mids, you understand were im getting at? its the large difference on numbers.


as for the second point i was on relic defense at that time, and i can assure you the reason we had albs defending renaris was the reason i stated before. So i asked him if he was an alb and if he was even there to make such statment.

 

[SkarIronfist]

Simply put, taking keeps in Albion is a huge waste of time, and time is to precious to be thrown away.

Taking alb keeps is a huge chore, given the number of long range characters and mr m. rez. So when its achieved, then its normally a really big effort on the part of the realm involved. No offense to the hibs, but taking a relic from an underpopulated realm is not in the Spirit of the Game (I think hib redefines the meaning of underpopulated).

I know the guys I play with are happy to help out where possible, cutting of inc, helping out on keeps (before we get bored etc). Mainly because due to the population issues we barely have the numbers to fill one zone, so IRvR helps out all. Those without groups, solos, zergs, at least you can get some action.

Then to see people retake them with 1 / 2 fgs when no bugger is on, has the effect of why bother. Now I know a few people have said, well come out to defend. Well unless you defend with a equal number, then the 1st time you pop your head over the battlements, then its normally gameover. That a keep can be taken with 1/2 fgs shows a lack of design. Its so bad now we barely have enough guilds earning enough points to keep towers at a reasonable level and the number of guilds who can relistically support a keep is falling.

I think you have to remember, for alot of people no meaningful RVR of whatever nature they choose (solo,fg,zerg), leads them to not log on and finally not bother subscribing.

So for those who Alarm Clock, because there is nothing else to do. Well congratulations you show what an exercise in futility taking a keep is, and enjoy the wasteland that you are creating. I will not even bother with Relics since they are meaningless, because they just go back next morning and taking a Relic is the biggest grind of all.

 

[Darzil]

You can argue that no rvr willing albs are logged on during the day, but that is not the same as not having any people logged on at all. Atleast they have the choice.

It's not exactly the same, but a person who doesn't rvr (or in my case if I'm working from home I'll craft, but not pve or rvr on the second pc during the day) isn't a defender, and cannot be, by definition. It's why rvr balance depends on numbers of people in rvr, not numbers logged in, and you and I have no access to such figures.

If as has been stated, Mids had 5fg out, then that's more organised groups than I've seen in the frontier in a BG in Alb apart from during a MRE, and would have won, albeit a bit slower, in primetime.

Darzil

 

[charmangle]

As you can read on FH we still getting blaimed by most of the FH posters when albs (re)taking a relic, so it for us it
would be easy to restart doing it simply cause we will get pointed anyway. (but we dont restart it ).

To be honest I'm aware that you claim that your guild stopped the AC raiding, and I also do believe the claims!

Meaning that my referenses towards CM as ACers is misrepresenting, and I appologize for that. I kinda took the lowroad there and working with old assumtions.

Ive argued on FH several times, that we should all give people who are trying to amend for former actions a second chance, so ofc so should you get one!
Dont take the blames to heart, as long as you know that you have changed the rest of us will get it eventually!

It's not exactly the same, but a person who doesn't rvr (or in my case if I'm working from home I'll craft, but not pve or rvr on the second pc during the day) isn't a defender, and cannot be, by definition. It's why rvr balance depends on numbers of people in rvr, not numbers logged in, and you and I have no access to such figures.

If as has been stated, Mids had 5fg out, then that's more organised groups than I've seen in the frontier in a BG in Alb apart from during a MRE, and would have won, albeit a bit slower, in primetime.

Darzil

I agree, but in the end, Alb still have enough playing people who can defend if they choose to during the day, to atleast set up a playable defence. And thats alot different from beeing 2-3 players defending vs 2 fgs. Even if its just 2 fg vs 5 fgs it is alot better.

I also agree that mids mostly are more organized when it comes to grouping etc, than Albs, but those things are still choices and even though they do make a difference, thats nothing you can base your actions on.

In the end the amount of active logged on chars are the one that decides, weather or not it is AC raiding or not in my opinion. And as someone suggest, lock keep/relic takes in a realm when the total logged on people drop below a certain amount (25 maybe) would be a good thing for all, since below that there just arent enough people to stage a defence or create a group.

/Charmangle

 

[Sharkith]

So i agree on both of them, taking relics late night is lame, taking keeps in the morning/afternoon is lame aswell,
but even if i think its lame i dont QQ about it, i do not punish my realmmates by setting renaris to lvl 1, i just
continue playing the game, trying to retake keeps that enemies took in our frontier.

As far i can remember we have done a total of 5-6 AC raids from september 2005 until July/August 2006. Where 2 of those
raids where taking our own relics back home.

Requiel - you said to me that there was no evidence from your perspective that there was a systematic approach by a group of players to grief the server. Now we have had Kagato admit he did his to piss people off. Blow has subsequently posted that they took part in no less than 6 relic raids at very early times.

I think you can now conclusively accept that this was a systematic pattern and that both the Hibs, Mids and Albs who have been upset about this were and do have a real reason for feeling how they do. Blow's post even confirms that some AC'ed relics were done in response to FH whine and the goal was to piss people off.

Now as you can see by the definition of grief play I have offered you the feeling we have are both confirmed and legitimate. Not only was this a systematic pattern of play it was deliberate on several occassions and designed to have maximum effect.

Now can we please have a serious debate about why this can be defined as grief play and why the game as it is designed allows this kind of play to happen. Can we please bring this to Mythic and show them that this is a fact. It is not just some whine. It has happened it was systematic and it was deeply damaging.

I deeply respect your posting here but you now have a responsibility to take this forward in some meaningful way. I do not want to see anyone banned I want us to be taken seriously and for it to be accepted that our conerns are real concerns.

Please do this now you have started the debate.

p.s. Kinetix:

yes i said i would true - Anger created by situation as i previously posted.

No i didnt participate in any AC RR since then mate

Yes I accept that and I also accept that you have not done anything like that since. Lets try to stay on the topic - concerning why this is such a damaging thing. We have a chance with Requiel to try and get some help to stop the cycle getting worse.

 

[Arethir]

yes i said i would true - Anger created by situation as i previously posted.

No i didnt participate in any AC RR since then mate

The situation here being a prime-time relic raid run by Mastade? And why did this make you angry?

 

[Sollers]

we have upset mid/hibs for their entire life We proberly
would have stopped earlier with taking relics in the late night if there wasnt so much QQ about CM, that helped a few
of my guildies to stimulate me to continue with some other AC takes.

The funny thing is that the AC raiders openly admit that they did their raids to piss off other people. That's griefing in its purest form.

When my guild decided to drop Renaris to level 1, it was not to grief you or any of the other AC raiders in alb, but rather to let the mids/hibs now there was still people in Albion who were not part of the lame crew and did care for mid's/hib's victimized position in this game. Sadly though, I soon found out though that this was extremely griefing and deserved a ban.

It is this griefing that everyone knows the proper meaning of, bar Requiel and his crew. And even though for many months people have screamed it at them, and TT has put it into practise, they still fail to see what is really going on.

Requiels post would have been nice 6 months ago, now its just another pindication that they have little idea of life on the server.

 

[Tuthmes]

The situation here being a prime-time relic raid run by Mastade? And why did this make you angry?

Try this one: https://forums.freddyshouse.com/showthread.php?t=207591

 

[Kinetix]

Look you don't have to agree to come to an understanding ^^. Take for example Tip, who has a twin brother called Aim. Now i don't agree on their playstyle, however i do understand it. All i hope is that they understand that it isnt exactly fun for me (when zergin my solo ass for the 5th time) and stop doin so for a whiled.
And if it's that much fun to pwn me, you can continue the zergfest the next day.

P.s. Soz using Tip and Aim here as an example :|

I understand what you are saying.
yes you are right, but i must ask you this. Do you think mids understand the fact albs dont have fun defending keep and having to retake keeps/towers all day?
Ofc this is a vicious cycle and once this is over albs will pbbly be doing the same to them as soon as they can and they will be giving as much understanding as mids did to us.

 

[Darkptang]

...Is this what you want? Dont get me wrong fights for relics are nice, but taking all of keeps/towers of another realm after taking relics just to piss off others is defenatly a "asking to get payback soon" due to all the anger created by it.

2nd dec 2006, 2am... 15 hibs online, 8 of them bb´s

look at rw btw, dont remember hibs doing this in 2006 m8

 

[Blow]

The funny thing is that the AC raiders openly admit that they did their raids to piss off other people.
That's griefing in its purest form.

When my guild decided to drop Renaris to level 1, it was not to grief you or any of the other AC raiders in alb, but rather
to let the mids/hibs now there was still people in Albion who were not part of the lame crew and did care for their victimized
position in this game. Sadly though, I soon found out though that this was extremely griefing and deserved a ban.

It is this griefing that everyone knows the proper meaning of, bar Requiel and his crew. And even though for many months
people have screamed it at them, and TT has put it into practise, they still fail to see what is really going on.

Requiels post would have been nice 6 months ago, now its just another pindication that they have little idea of life on
the server.

I did not say we did it to piss off enemies, let me try to explain it better. We have a GG out then only where able to
logon late due to timeschedule from work. So here it goes:

Relic raid #1 : We just here, lets see if we can get some hib/mid out action by taking keep x (Ending up in a relic)
Relic raid #2 : Lets retake our relics that mid/hib have took from us
Relic raid #3 : (see relic raid #1)
Relic raid #4 : (see relic raid #2)
Relic raid #5 : Lets retake Berks and Eras (again for the 5-10th time in a row, and take a keep of them to give them a lesson that we do not like iRvr (ending up in relic raid)

The 6th relic raid we did not as group but i can remember there where +/- 5 from CM participating (that was in july/august 2006)


And this was in the period September 2005 untill july/august 2006 where we where online 5-7 days online, where we logged just most of the times or taking 1 keep only.

 

[Darzil]

The situation here being a prime-time relic raid run by Mastade? And why did this make you angry?

If it's the one I think it was, it starred Mids and Hibs both attacking different keeps, each with numbers greater than Alb defenders, along with whine here about Alb overpopulation, after some weeks of pressure on Alb.

Sometimes it's hard being Alb, we have enough numbers to provoke whine, but not enough disciplined RvRer's to win against what we face. If we lose it's because we're rubbish, if we win it's because we're zerger's. Largely speaking, the Hib/Mid guild groups help their siege warfare, the Alb ones didn't, leaving Alb at a tactical disadvantage (CM is the main exception to this).

Darzil

 

[Soulja_IA_]

When NF was 1st launched did not an american server of Hibs Stop RvRing because of issues concerning Relics and Mythic came in and to resolve it.

A while ago I know but think it was because of Relics that went back to relic shrine on how the attacking realms did take them and it was then near impossible to retrieve especially for server that it was on hence mythic then introducing that enemy relics would be placed into a keep and not into relic shrine.Seems that Mythic listened to it's customers and did something about it asap.

I Appreciate Requiel now taking an interest but surely this has been a long term thing Even us Hibs showed an amount of dissapproval to you actions when we released all Hib towers and Keeps WHY was nothing sorted out then Sharkith made a lot of Posts but then you chose to take action by Muyls post on TT.

All these points were put to Goa months ago about declining server and why it was happening.

FAO Blow Fair play on you answer honestly thought you were going to sit on fence over this one.

Soulja

 

[charmangle]

I understand what you are saying.
yes you are right, but i must ask you this. Do you think mids understand the fact albs dont have fun defending keep and having to retake keeps/towers all day?
Ofc this is a vicious cycle and once this is over albs will pbbly be doing the same to them as soon as they can and they will be giving as much understanding as mids did to us.

Hmm...then what does the random Alb want to do in RvR?
There arent many Alb fgs out roaming the FG arena...so whats left? Solo stealthering? But surly not all Albs do that?

What is left, except sieging? Either take the Albs to Hib/Mids area or defend vs Hibs/Mids in their own area?

And why AC Hib Relics if you dont like to defend the realm? (The power relic that is, before the TT action). Your comment doesnt seem to describe the Alb way, but rather only your personal opinion!:/
/Charmangle

 

[Legaethiel]

I agree that with most of the arguments that are being raised here, but is no achievement in capturing relics by AC raids, or when real life comes before DAoC. I think Albs are in a no win situation, being targetted because they have the greatest population on the game. Albs don't seem to have enough established rvr groups - people who regularly together: therefore established rvr groups from different realms, always do alot better.
There is no point in complaining, because you are just get more and more wound up. The other realms are going exploit that, like they are doing.
I enjoy rvr, and my highest realm rank is 3L4; I haven't been on the game long and will struggle against people who have been on the game for 4 years. I won't flame them for being better than me, I learn from the experience and move on. This experience just inspires me to get more action and improve.

 

[Shike]

the questionmark Sharkith leave in his first post is the only relevant really. I agree fully with his post and he nails it spot on, plain and simple.

What is griefing. In my opinion, the nightraidcrew are arseholes since they full well know they are pissing off alot of people and yet they just keep on doing it. In my book, its 100% crystalclear that these people are causing major problems, and also make people change server and even cause people to cancel full stop. If that isnt griefing, then what is? Hell I cancelled 3 accounts and the reliccrew is one large factor to why i did cancel. I dont want my gaming experience to be hurt from arseholes and when they actually can do it, I just cancel since GOA do nothing about it. Then it is time to find other alternatives which I now have done and im now a happy gamer again. DAoC is a game Ive spent 5 years on and I still love the game, I love my nightshade but I refuse to ever come back under these circumstanses where someone like blow and other idiots have the power to decide how my nightshade will perform the next day, thats 100% pure bollox and nothing but bollox.

10% relicdamage is a huge bonus. Anyone saying anything else is ignorant and probably just dont play the game as seriosly as some others do. If 10% didnt matter much, then what is the point in getting a really good template for the character in the first place? Its idiocy to neglect 10% from relics, end of story.

I think its too late to even bother with this now Requiel, far too late. GOA should have a made a move months ago and put in extra guards, a dragon, behemoth, whatever.. and taken the public discussion back then and asked the community, are you guys really ok with having your characters performance to be affected by people that is doing as they want while you are asleep.

As you know, Mythic design the game after a serverenvironment that can be called a 24/7 environment. UKcluster just cannot fall into this category of envinronment since the only ones awake and active during the night are some rotten albs that steal relics and affect the whole server in doing so and they just keep on doing it aslong as they can do it.

How can this not be crystalclear Requiel, explain that to me and I'll applaud you if you can come up with an reasonable honest explanation.

 

[noaim]

Tbh this entire thread feels useless without Requiel of other GM´s replying in it. Its not a debate if the one asking the question doesnt participate, its just another thread where 1 side think its ok and the other dont think its ok.

 

[Kinetix]

2nd dec 2006, 2am... 15 hibs online, 8 of them bb´s

look at rw btw, dont remember hibs doing this in 2006 m8

Yes i agree with you mate, its bad enough to have relics gone and to actually take towers/keeps just to piss off.
Mids are doing the same to us as we did the same to them last year.
Like i stated several times, this is a vicious cycle and the anger keeps going from one side to the other and this type of situations will repeat themselfs unfortunatly

 

[Sollers]

Tbh this entire thread feels useless without Requiel of other GM´s replying in it. Its not a debate if the one asking the question doesnt participate, its just another thread where 1 side think its ok and the other dont think its ok.

I was about to say that yeah :/

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

I think this discussion is a dead horse. There are a lot of lame things you can do in this game Requiel, walk-trough, strafe, relic raids with little defense if you want, RR11 vs RR3 group, 8 vs 1, certain classes and so on. It is all by design, if it upsets players when it's repeated often and when it's hurting the playerbase, change the design. Change the design of how relics are taken, voila. Mythic did start a good way with the class changes, so this could be possible.

The second thing is the human nature, some people will just whine because of a lost relic like a lost toy but you will often find them in a category that is definatly causing some grief to some other players, so I think the whine is unjustified.

Dyvet is going bad atm, I know you are monitoring the situation, more and more people will leave unless there is something we can look forward to soon though.

 

[Kinetix]

Hmm...then what does the random Alb want to do in RvR?
There arent many Alb fgs out roaming the FG arena...so whats left? Solo stealthering? But surly not all Albs do that?

What is left, except sieging? Either take the Albs to Hib/Mids area or defend vs Hibs/Mids in their own area?

And why AC Hib Relics if you dont like to defend the realm? (The power relic that is, before the TT action). Your comment doesnt seem to describe the Alb way, but rather only your personal opinion!:/
/Charmangle

I cant speak for all the albs, but i like fgs fights. The problem is that like you said there arnt many set fgs runing wich compromises our defense/ofense capability wich denies every possibility of doing the things you did.
Most albs arnt as active in RvR as mids or hibs, you can find many pugs of 3-4 ppl but not even a balenced one maybe even with no real healing. A group such as this dosent have enough force to fight the heavy fgs and balenced ones from mids/hibs


"Your comment doesnt seem to describe the Alb way, but rather only your personal opinion!:/"

Cant describe anything else then what i see, from my pov.


I cant say why albs AC hib relics mate i wasnt there.

 

[Cromcruaich]

From your posts Kin its seems like you have finally come around to understand and accept the arguments all those people who complained about AC raids made. To me thats real progress.

Now, I think rather than us all arguing about mids and albs and what is an ac raid and what isnt, then best all get back on thread. Describe to Req what has really annoyed you about the mid action direcly and why AC raids in general are a bad thing.

Finally yes, needs more response from Req, and overall, as usual, Shark has done extremely well in trying to drive to the heart of the matter, over the tit for tat arguments.

 

[Kinetix]

From your posts Kin its seems like you have finally come around to understand and accept the arguments all those people who complained about AC raids made. To me thats real progress.

Now, I think rather than us all arguing about mids and albs and what is an ac raid and what isnt, then best all get back on thread. Describe to Req what has really annoyed you about the mid action direcly and why AC raids in general are a bad thing.

Finally yes, needs more response from Req, and overall, as usual, Shark has done extremely well in trying to drive to the heart of the matter, over the tit for tat arguments.

Np with me, just dont forget to include all types of AC RR, not just the ones done at late night.

 

[Cromcruaich]

Np with me, just dont forget to include all types of AC RR, not just the ones done at late night.

We need a new catch phrase to describe them though. Weve got Alarm Clock raid, what can be the mid day equivalent.

Actually Mid Day raid isnt bad, double meaning and all that.

 

[joap]

I did not say we did it to piss off enemies, let me try to explain it better. We have a GG out then only where able to
logon late due to timeschedule from work. So here it goes:

Relic raid #1 : We just here, lets see if we can get some hib/mid out action by taking keep x (Ending up in a relic)
Relic raid #2 : Lets retake our relics that mid/hib have took from us
Relic raid #3 : (see relic raid #1)
Relic raid #4 : (see relic raid #2)
Relic raid #5 : Lets retake Berks and Eras (again for the 5-10th time in a row, and take a keep of them to give them a lesson that we do not like iRvr (ending up in relic raid)

The 6th relic raid we did not as group but i can remember there where +/- 5 from CM participating (that was in july/august 2006)

The way you describe it, your relic raids sound like an accidental pregnancy.

"We didnt mean for it, but just happened"

 

[Arethir]

Manisch and Blow, please don't try turning this into some e-peen defence thread for CM. You both know alot of people disagree with the actions your guild has taken in the past. The only way you can change their view is ingame, not on FH.
And Manisch, even if Fatload had been griefing, why would this give you the right to do it? We all do mistakes at times, we should learn from those mistakes, not point fingers at others. If you don't believe what the guild did was a mistake, then that's all ok, just face the fact that other players don't like it, and never will.
These matters are again of the past, while this thread is directed at how we would like things to be in the future. How we would want the cluster to be if we were to keep playing on it, and why we would want it to be this way.
Again, please defend the CM reputation elsewhere, this is not the place. (Please note that in alot of the above posts, CM is not always directed at your guild, but simply is a symbol of albs doing raids during the night taking relics from the other realms. This is wrong, I know, but please look trough the fingers of it. And if you have like you say stopped AC'ing now, that's great, keep at it, people will see it in the end.)

 

[Bracken]

Sticking to the topic, the main reason I don't agree with AC raids (by which I mean raids where the main keep taking starts and ends in a time period that there are few people on line - raids where the majority of work is done in primetime but which overrun a little aren't really an issue in my book) is that it acts as a major disincentive to large-scale rvr. Why organise and run a prime-time relic raid (which in NF takes a lot of work) when the "reward" (relics) are just taken back when you and the vast majority are not playing?

I don't go with the relic bonus argument - relics are there to be taken - but that bonus should be worked for. Yes there will always be arguments about realm balance, op classes etc making it easier/harder for one side, but AC raids go beyond that. AC raids are singularly down to individual player behaviour, whereas the other "contentious" issues which cause arguments after relic raids are down to factors beyond the individual player's direct control. I think it is that which makes regular AC raids (a community would cope if they were very rare) the single biggest disincentive to large scale rvr and therefore so damaging to a server's community.