9/11 again

[Chilly]

I did it. Now stfu.

Oh, and saying the US economy benefited from the whole debacle is probably a bit wrong. How much you rekon it costs to keep the boys out in the east a day? $50million? $100million? Fuck knows, but its an assload of money and it's fucking their budgets up. Yes, they might have a temporary economic boost but it's being paid for by disgustingly large loans and selling off vast amounts of assets and foreign currency stockpiles. Like going shopping on your credit card - fucking stupid.

 

[Paradroid]

Have you ever whacked a piece of concrete with a hammer? I have.
....

Why doesn't that surprise me?






Listen, Tom, what you do all day is of no concern to us.







Have you ever created a pyroclastic flow with your hammer & concrete?







Hammer time, eheheo, eheheo ....

 

[yaruar]

Have you ever whacked a piece of concrete with a hammer? I have. Surprisingly, bits of concrete fly off in all directions. Its called energy.

The flying up is probably also something to do with the rapid conceternering of the floors as they collapse inwards which will blow smaller particals upwards due to the massive expulsion of air (just like how a concertina plays music, physics is great isn't it)
Also depending on the tower, one of them collapsed around the central support which would have probably meant that crap was blown upwards through the central pillar through teh doors/holes/etc creating a much higher blast of debris and dust through the chim chiminey, just imagine a pre diagnosis murder dick van dyke flying up pushing young boys in front of him flying out the top.

 

[Wij]

It wouldn't have taken hundreds of people to orchestrate 911, most of those involved would be fully signed-up members of the establishment (ie State Secrets carrying an automatic 25-40 years in jail). The foot-soldiers (and it's been proven scientifically) will push any button and do anything if told by someone with authority - that's what they're trained to do after all.

Take this wee scenario:

Neocons want to change the direction of political affairs to favour the USA internationally and themselves internally, which no one seems to doubt (ie probable cause).

The USA have a long history of funding/encouraging so-called "insurgents" in other countries to try and force internal change...coups involving bloodletting are the norm (eg Chile on 11/9/1973...911 again, spookily enough). If they can happily do it abroad (in someone elses country), think how easily they could do it at home?. The reason I'm saying this is, what if Osama Bin Laden is entirely a CIA asset (as theorised)? This would have an effect on the culpability aspect of any criminal charges.


The US security services uncover (or plan) a plot which is basically/roughly 911 as we know it. They know (because they're cunning and have read history books and understand human psychology) that if they foil this plot they gain nothing from it and the so-called terrorists will strike again elsewhere possibly catching them by surprise and causing a real upset (if, indeed, it wasn't a US plan from the start).

So, the fact that they "uncovered" a 911-style plot gives them (basically) all the post-911 political clout they need within the background on capitol hill. Think about it. The US president (more likely someone higher up the financial food-chain) calls a secret meeting and tells "important" players in the game what they've discovered - that we're going to be attacked. That if we foil the attack the next one could be hugely damaging, and their best bet is to allow the terrorists to fulfill their plan but within a controlled environment. That way they get all the benefits of the publically backed political clout to actually address the real problem (in their eyes anyway) of this anti-USA terrorist threat, by way of a focussed war in the middle-east.

The entire US economy benefits from this (as they're a huge weapons manufacturer, and lets not forget all that lovely oil revenue).

I don't want to over-simplify this, but even I can see a way of contriving peoples opinion towards the goal of letting it happen. Each person involved (or group of people) will have had their own "information" fed to them, their own set of agends that could be fulfilled.

The military - it's all good there innit? Apart from the dead soldiers...but war is hell isn't it?
The intelligence/security community - they play puppet-masters again.
The US economy - well, where do you start? Everything from: Their military-industrial complex is geared towards war (most money spent on military); it'll avoid/prolong a slide into reccession (Enron anyone?); Iraq and other oil producers were talking about moving oil trading from Dollars to Euros, wiping out the US's ability to give itself a free loan; etc, etc, etc,.......
The Rebublicans - they get to rule the roost in Washington for a while and get loads of dodgy legislation passed, while forcing citizens to give up their freedoms (just like the "terrorists" want).
The Democrats - (see Republicans).
Larry Silverstein - was probably convinced by neocons that there was an imminent terrorist attack, some people would die but it wasn't our fault anyway, the WTC towers also needed a huge repair bill anyway. He might have been told that they'd clear the buildings before demolishing them (but someone further-up decided they needed a bigger impact from bigger body-counts)....what's he going to do after the fact? Come clean and say it was just a convenient insurance job gone wrong?
The Bush family empire - well, again, where do you start? They're a fukin oil company! Daddy works for Carlyle group, no problems there (even the Saudis were happy). Brother Jeb runs Florida, who got him elected and had a State of Emergency declared 2 days before 911 (funny that). Brother Marvin ran the security company that had the contracts for the WTC and one of the highjacked airports.
Dick Cheney - ran Halliburton and oversaw them becoming unchallenged recipients of huge contracts for Iraq.
Donald Rumsfeld - he lives this shit. He's the real political "hawk" who's been trying to mould public perception about one "scarey bogey-man" after another for more than 30 years. The bullshit we were subjected to about WMD was pure Rumsfeld. In the 70's he was banging his anti-Russia/communist drum and saying they had weapons so advanced, sooo advanced, that we weren't even able to see them! (That's just how advanced that threat was!)

Have you any idea how insane you sound ?

 

[Tom]

Have you ever created a pyroclastic flow with your hammer & concrete? [/I]

A pyroclastic flow eh? What, you're suggesting that there was a pyroclastic flow on the day the towers fell?

Where was it, Indonesia? Because there certainly wasn't one in New York.

 

[JingleBells]

A pyroclastic flow eh? What, you're suggesting that there was a pyroclastic flow on the day the towers fell?

Where was it, Indonesia? Because there certainly wasn't one in New York.

I dunno....

 

[Insane]

Have you any idea how insane you sound ?

He doesnt sound at all anything like me!

Id have you know that I sound unique
Id also like to add for the record, your all a bunch of boobs.

 

[leggy]

Guys.... what made the bits of the building go upwards? (like in this picture?), gravity?

View attachment 3030

Are you actually serious?

Straws. Clutch. Lose.

 

[Paradroid]

Have you any idea how insane you sound ?

I'm struggling to understand exactly what you think is insane?

That the US governement (or any government) is capable of such a thing? Never heard of the Reichstag Fire or Operation Northwoods?

Why do you think the phrase "False Flag" even exists? Or "Demolition Experts"? (common theme emerging here, me thinks)


btw, I liked your concertina metaphor Yaruar ... except, to complete the picture, you just need to add a fistful of knitting-needles in the middle.

 

[Overdriven]

Guys.... what made the bits of the building go upwards? (like in this picture?), gravity?

View attachment 3030

oO You DO know that gravity pulls things DOWN... Yes? Or did I miss a very important world-wide-based-issue regarding physics?


WHO FORGOT TO TELL ME THE GRAVITATIONAL PULL OF THE EARTH HAD BEEN REVERSED?!

 

[Mofo8]

oO You DO know that gravity pulls things DOWN... Yes? Or did I miss a very important world-wide-based-issue regarding physics?


WHO FORGOT TO TELL ME THE GRAVITATIONAL PULL OF THE EARTH HAD BEEN REVERSED?!

erm.... I was attempting a degree of sarcasm. To clarify, I don't believe gravity was responsible for the huge chunks of building going upwards.

 

[DaGaffer]

Right, heres the question you should be able to answer then:

Who gave the order?

Who was it who said "hey guys, lets fool the public into thinking that Islamic fundamentalist terrorists flew passenger aircraft into our landmarks"?

Who was it who stood there and suggested this, and was sure that of the many hundreds, possibly thousands of people required to carry out this crime, not a single one of them would have a slight pang of concience and spill the beans? Christ, Watergate was a simple bugging of a few offices, and look how that turned out....

Just ploughed through this (didn't we have this debate last year btw?), and this bit is what it all hangs on for me; the idea that Americans of all people could do this and keep it a secret, is just laughable. The NSA, the CIA the FBI, the Secret Service, all spy on each other. Every agency, at the top level, and quite a few levels down would have to be co-opted into the conspiracy. It would get out. These are not competent people. You only have to look at Iraq to see their general levels of fuckwittery, and yet they could pull off a stunt like 9/11 without a problem? Unless of course, they're only pretending to be incompetent in Iraq so people wouldn't think they were capable of pulling off 9/11... Oooh, Machiavelli would be proud

 

[taB]

I'm inclined to agree with DaGaffer, to believe otherwise would give these people too much credit and I for one am happy with my blinkered view that most Americans I have met are fuck-wits. There are exceptions, but they are not the rule.


Ben.

 

[old.user4556]

Some of the stuff on this thread is unbelievable, and total comedy.

 

[Mofo8]

What about the theory that it could have been perpertrated by only a couple of high ranking Neo-cons in cahoots with a foreign power - namely Israel and Mossad?

What about the Israeli "students" working for a removal company that were arrested on 11th September 2001 across the river for acting suspiciously? Whooping, giving each other high-fives, celebrating, taking photos of themselves with the burning towers in the background giving thumbs up signs, etc.

There are also reports that many Israeli and Jewish WTC workers were warned not to go into work that day.

What about the fact that no Al-Qaeda cell has been uncovered in the States since 911, despite thousands of arrests of Muslims, yet several hundred Israelis have been arrested and deported for spying? No Guantanamo for them.

What about the Israeli Mossad agents arrested inside the Mexican parliament shortly after 911, armed with firearms, grenades, C4 explosives and Palestinian passports?

Mossad have carried out black flag operations many times in the past. They can look like arabs, talk like arabs, and act like arabs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident (not Mossad but IDF)

'By Way of Deception, thou shalt do War'

 

[Tom]

Ah reet. Now it isn't the US government, or the chap that owns the WTC. Its Israel, yes people the Israelis, from a country in the ME that annually receives many hundreds of millions of dollars directly from the US, are the ones who attacked the US of A.

Really, you're just trolling now aren't you? Nobody can possibly be that stupid. You can't actually argue against the documented facts of the day in question, so you just pull random shite out of the air and attempt to confuse the argument.

SHUT UP.

 

[Tom]

Oh and the Black Ninja would kick your avatar's arse.

 

[Mofo8]

Ah reet. Now it isn't the US government, or the chap that owns the WTC. Its Israel, yes people the Israelis, from a country in the ME that annually receives many hundreds of millions of dollars directly from the US, are the ones who attacked the US of A.

Really, you're just trolling now aren't you? Nobody can possibly be that stupid. You can't actually argue against the documented facts of the day in question, so you just pull random shite out of the air and attempt to confuse the argument.

SHUT UP.

Mmmhhh.... not exactly a stunning rebuttal. You failed to address any of the questions posed. That's the bits with little question marks at the end of them instead of full stops.

As I said - Israel has attacked the USA before to try and draw them into war in the Middle East... with America's collusion.

I suppose the guys in the Mexican parliament were Al Queda pretending to be Mossad pretending to be Palestinians?

I can't believe that you can't admit that governments haven't decieved their own people before, or carried out false flag operations, as a reason to get into a war or erode civil liberties or attack an internal group.

Oh and the Green Yamo kicks both Bruce and the Ninja's ass!

 

[DaGaffer]

As I said - Israel has attacked the USA before to try and draw them into war in the Middle East... with America's collusion.

Huh? Who did what now? When did Israel attack the US? Did I miss a memo?

 

[Mofo8]

Huh? Who did what now? When did Israel attack the US? Did I miss a memo?

You must have missed the bit above where I mentioned (and had a link to) stuff about the Israeli attack on the USS Cole.

 

[Tom]

Mmmhhh.... not exactly a stunning rebuttal. You failed to address any of the questions posed. That's the bits with little question marks at the end of them instead of full stops.

As I said - Israel has attacked the USA before to try and draw them into war in the Middle East... with America's collusion.

I suppose the guys in the Mexican parliament were Al Queda pretending to be Mossad pretending to be Palestinians?

I can't believe that you can't admit that governments haven't decieved their own people before, or carried out false flag operations, as a reason to get into a war or erode civil liberties or attack an internal group.

Oh and the Green Yamo kicks both Bruce and the Ninja's ass!

Why should I address them? What basis in fact have you given them? If you want to compare previous incidents of Israeli military action, can you please show me where Israelis have performed suicide bombings? How many Jewish suicide bombers have waltzed into Muslim territories and blown themselves to smithereens?

"Martians have 15 foot long dicks, and like to have tentacle sex with rabbits"

Should I answer that as well?

Why would Israel attack the USA to give them a pretext to wage war in the middle east? This is the USA we're talking about, the same country that just a few posts ago orchestrated a conspiracy against its own citizens to fly aircraft into buildings.

Why have you swung from conspiracy to conspiracy like Tarzan from the trees? What am I, your www.answereveryridiculousquestionmofo8poses.com bitch?

I'm quite prepared to admit that governments, including our own, have deceived the population. It goes on every single day. What doesn't generally happen though is for that government to stage terrorist attacks on their own country as an excuse to wage war.

You still haven't answered my very pertinent and quite obvious question - who gave the order?

Then, once you've answered that, supply me with credible evidence backing up your claim.

You must have missed the bit above where I mentioned (and had a link to) stuff about the Israeli attack on the USS Cole.

Oh dear, more signs of your confusion. Sit down, have an LSD tab and a smile, and stfu.

 

[Mofo8]

can you please show me where Israelis have performed suicide bombings? How many Jewish suicide bombers have waltzed into Muslim territories and blown themselves to smithereens?

Why are you so hung up on suicide bombings? What makes them so much worse than traditional bombings, detonated by timer, mobile phone or command wire? Or indeed traditional bombs and shells dropped by aircraft and fired by artillery?

'Cause there's plenty of times the Israelis have carried out bombings (on Arabs and others including British servicemen) before and after 1948, and plenty of times they've targeted civilians.

I think it's just a way for you to get all frothy at the mouth about Islam.

Let's change the subject a wee bit, as it's clear we can't agree on much of this stuff.... ever.

What's your solution? Kill all muslim? Just the "bad" ones? Deport all British muslims? What about the blacks? Irish? Have an Orwellian never-ending war?

 

[supersaint]

The world trade centre collapse never happened at all.David Blaine used gigantic mirror's he stole from dance class to make it look like the plains hit the towers.It's plausible,i mean he is Jewish isn't he?

 

[Tom]

Mofo8, go follow your conspiracy theories if you like. You're a deluded fool.

 

[DaGaffer]

You must have missed the bit above where I mentioned (and had a link to) stuff about the Israeli attack on the USS Cole.

Ah, right. But that's rubbish isn't it? There's not a shred of evidence, and a whole bunch of evidence pointing in the other direction. The 'evidence' seems to be that Israel had a 'motive' (take attention away from the Intifada), and 'means' (the explosive used is manufactured in Israel). Unfortunately, the motive is dubious; the attack took place during the Clinton administration, which was actually the coolest US administration towards Israel since Eisenhower. The Israelis had much more to lose than gain from such an attack if their involvement was revealed. As for the 'means', that explosive is also manufactured in the US, and two arab nations, so its pretty meaningless really (and given the exigencies of the international arms trade, not that relevant even if Israel was the only place to get the stuff).

In actual fact, Israel has attacked the US, but it was a mistake, (the Israelis thought the USS Liberty was an Egyptian ship and they were fighting the six-day war at the time, the Liberty sailed into an exclusion zone by mistake) and it was nearly 40 years ago; and despite the bitterness of some of the Liberty's crew, it wasn't part of some plot (in fact the Israelis were shitting themselves because when they realised the ship wasn't Egyptian, they thought it was Soviet, and signal traffic confirms that).

All of these conspiracies are actually racist if you ask me. Its like, "A bunch of ragheads just aren't capable of this, we must have done it to ourselves". Bollocks. Occam's Razor.

 

[Mofo8]

Ah, right. But that's rubbish isn't it? There's not a shred of evidence, and a whole bunch of evidence pointing in the other direction. The 'evidence' seems to be that Israel had a 'motive' (take attention away from the Intifada), and 'means' (the explosive used is manufactured in Israel). Unfortunately, the motive is dubious; the attack took place during the Clinton administration, which was actually the coolest US administration towards Israel since Eisenhower. The Israelis had much more to lose than gain from such an attack if their involvement was revealed. As for the 'means', that explosive is also manufactured in the US, and two arab nations, so its pretty meaningless really (and given the exigencies of the international arms trade, not that relevant even if Israel was the only place to get the stuff).

In actual fact, Israel has attacked the US, but it was a mistake, (the Israelis thought the USS Liberty was an Egyptian ship and they were fighting the six-day war at the time, the Liberty sailed into an exclusion zone by mistake) and it was nearly 40 years ago; and despite the bitterness of some of the Liberty's crew, it wasn't part of some plot (in fact the Israelis were shitting themselves because when they realised the ship wasn't Egyptian, they thought it was Soviet, and signal traffic confirms that).

All of these conspiracies are actually racist if you ask me. Its like, "A bunch of ragheads just aren't capable of this, we must have done it to ourselves". Bollocks. Occam's Razor.

Ooops. Thanks DaGaffer. I had got my ship names all jumbled up. I was meaning USS Liberty when I referred you to a post I'd made. But.... a mistake.... bitterness on the part of the crew? Do you know how many died? Do you know how long the Israelis attacked the ship for? Do you know it had a huge US flag and 10 ft high ID number painted on it. They only called off the attack when a Soviet spy trawler appeared nearby. It was in international waters BTW.

Here's a good site that seems to cover a lot of the evidence (from all sides of the arguement).... it includes links to radio logs between Liberty and the fleet.

I know it was a long time ago. I mention it simply to support the idea that Israel has in the past attacked the US.

 

[Scouse]

I had a whole other (bloody long) post but after reading the whole of this report on the attack on the Liberty I figured that it was more important to ask Tom to do the same (if you're up for it - bit of a gauntlet-stylee challenge).

They provide evidence, sources and credible witnesses and yet are dismissed as "conspiracy theorists" - a tactic that you're particulary fond of Tom

I'd be honestly interested to know what you think - from the obvious slant (that I'll state up-front) that if you could believe this is cover-up then perhaps you'll consider other "consipracy theories" a bit more seriously than you evidently do.



Just for anyone who can't be arsed here's a few quotes off the main website:

"I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous "
-- US Secretary of State Dean Rusk


"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty."
-- CIA Director Richard Helms



"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."
-- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby



"To suggest that they [the IDF] couldn't identify the ship is ... ridiculous. ... Anybody who could not identify the Liberty could not tell the difference between the White House and the Washington Monument."
-- Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chief of Naval Operations and later Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, quoted in The Washington Post, June 15, 1991, p. 14




Conspiracy Theory eh??

 

[Paradroid]

Have you seen this BBC documentary series called Century of the Self? I think you should before you go on living on my planet any longer. (hour each)

Part 1:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8953172273825999151&q=The+Century+of+The+Self

Part 2:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-678466363224520614&q=The+Century+of+The+Self

Part 3:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6111922724894802811&q=The+Century+of+The+Self

Part 4:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6884155963216756796&q=The+Century+of+The+Self


It's not directly related to 911 but it explains where we're at now and how we got here.


Look at what the US did to Guatemala. To protect the profits of one US corporation they overthrew a democratically elected government. And, they didn't just press a button and make it happen, no. They orchestrated a strategic campaign to fool americans (in the US and Guatemala) that Guatemala was some kind of communist threat that needed "gotten rid of". The campaign involved the US government (at home and abroad), the media & news channels in the US (involving loads of reporters no doubt), fake news outlets, the CIA, and, the US airforce (who eventually dropped bombs on Guatemala). The propaganda they ushered wasn't just news stories but also organising marches, protests & riots in Guatemala to help the friendly insurgents effect their coup.

...and that was all for one fukin US fruit company operating in the defacto Banana Republic!!!!! This was a true conspiracy carried out in full view of observers at home & abroad, and they got away with it!

Now, fast-foward to the late 1990's and there's an oil pipleline planned to cut across the middle-east (to avoid paying those nasty Ruskies any tariffs), and one country, Afghanistan, is a stumbling block.


If the US are willing to do that to Guatemala for one corporation that sells fruit, what do you think they're capable of when it comes to oil? I mean oil is not only the direct business of many large US corporations, but is the life-blood of their entire country and economy. Couple that with the fact that a war encourages economic growth in other large US corporate sectors and you've got a win-win situation for the US since 2001.


BTW, I generally like Penn & Teller (I've watched the first 2 series), so I've only seen this 9 min clip from the conspiracy theory episode...but I have to say this: (ignoring the fact that they've obviously selected the goofiest looking odd-balls to represent their pre-denounced conspiracy "theorist" argument, and, the fact that as US citizens from NYC we're actually seeing an emotional response from Penn & Teller and not much logic (which is a pity 'cause they used to do some research))....one guy they interviewed states (correctly) that NORAD were running exercises on 911 that duplicated the real attacks, thereby hampering the response of the airforce...Penn & Teller dub their voices over the guy saying "oh yeah? Realllly? Uh-huh? (whacko!) etc" before quickly panning back & forth from one guy to the next and never addressed anything he said! Or did he? I haven't seen the whole episode. It's a documented fact that NORAD were doing these exercises - were Penn & Teller just ignoring that?

Also, the guy with the outlandish conspiracy theory that remote controlled fake planes were used and passengers were switched (etc), well, hang on to your tinfoil hat people, but this conspiracy theory was first theorised by the US military and is part of the documented (pdf) history of US politics, see Operation Northwoods for details.

He was simply relaying an idea that came from the US miltary, but 45 years later.

Also, on the show, he venomously spits that he hopes this jackass meets some of the relatives of those killed on 911 and he hoped they chuck him down a flight of stairs (emotional, no?)....he also, conveniently, ignores the fact that there are families of those who died who are part of the Truth movement and believe the government lied.

So, by my reckoning, you'll all be handing out tinfoil hats to just about everyone (who knows something that you're not aware of yet).





(btw, watch the docu series linked above, it's really good...honest)

 

[old.user4556]

Do you listen to Beatles records backwards?

 

[Paradroid]

Do you listen to Beatles records backwards?

There's a forwards?