9/11 again

Calaen

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The thing for me is talk about dragging it out, do we actually care or need to know if another pointless video has been found?
 

Tom

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WTF? Somfone vbeat the USA? Nobod can do that, ffs consipraicy!!11
 

old.Tohtori

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I know i'll get flamed for this...big time...but hasn't stopped me before.

But...

I'm kinda getting bored and tired of every year having to see the 9/11 documents on TV and seeing it plastered all over the net, news, papers and people each year dragging it out of the mothballs.

Ok..i'm done...*bends over for the "naughty boy" beating*

EDIT:

Oh and oh noes!! The al-waida are training to defeat andre agassi!

_42062364_train.jpg
 

mank!

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old.Tohtori said:
Oh and oh noes!! The al-waida are training to defeat andre agassi!

_42062364_train.jpg

hasn't he just retired?
 

PLightstar

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old.Tohtori said:
I know i'll get flamed for this...big time...but hasn't stopped me before.

But...

I'm kinda getting bored and tired of every year having to see the 9/11 documents on TV and seeing it plastered all over the net, news, papers and people each year dragging it out of the mothballs.

Ok..i'm done...*bends over for the "naughty boy" beating*

have to agree with that, I can understand a year later memorial and a 2yr silence but its been 5yrs get over it already, you don't see the US mourn over the ppl lost in the countless IRA Bombs, we get over it and move on,That country is far to emotional they still have a day remembering Pearl Harbour, Coventry was pretty much destroyed (saying that so was half of Germany) the US have it easy.
 

GDW

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You can agree with it because you probably haven't been directly/ personally affected by terrorism, hence your perceived idea that its easy 'to get over it'. For may who have been affected it not easy 'to get over it' as you are suggesting.

Whilst I to relase a sigh whenever another 9/11 documentary is aired I can't help thinking thats its good mental preparation for when it happens again, and it will happen.
 

Tom

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PLightstar said:
have to agree with that, I can understand a year later memorial and a 2yr silence but its been 5yrs get over it already, you don't see the US mourn over the ppl lost in the countless IRA Bombs, we get over it and move on,That country is far to emotional they still have a day remembering Pearl Harbour, Coventry was pretty much destroyed (saying that so was half of Germany) the US have it easy.

Yeah, those rememberance services we have every year are so overkill. :rolleyes:

Tell me, can you think of anything so dramatic thats happened to our country recently? I'm struggling to think of anything as shocking as planes flying into skyscrapers.
 

Calaen

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Tom said:
Yeah, those rememberance services we have every year are so overkill. :rolleyes:

Tell me, can you think of anything so dramatic thats happened to our country recently? I'm struggling to think of anything as shocking as planes flying into skyscrapers.

7/7 count? that was highly dramatic and traumatic for lots of people.
 

Bodhi

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PLightstar said:
have to agree with that, I can understand a year later memorial and a 2yr silence but its been 5yrs get over it already, you don't see the US mourn over the ppl lost in the countless IRA Bombs, we get over it and move on,That country is far to emotional they still have a day remembering Pearl Harbour, Coventry was pretty much destroyed (saying that so was half of Germany) the US have it easy.

We still have a day remembering VE-Day and Remembrance Sunday.
 

Mabs

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this is going to sound a bit harsh but...

we had decades of IRA killings
spain has had decades of ETA problems
the germans, french, israelis, etc, etc, have all had problems over the year with serious terrorist incidents

the USA got off incredibly lightly, until 9/11 and suddenly its the end of the world.. well HELLO its what the rest of us have been living with to varying degrees for a lot longer

considering quite a lot of IRA money came from the irish americans through sinn fein channels etc, i have even less sympathy for them.

end of the day, it was fucking horrendous what happened, and i wouldnt wish it on anyone, but yet again the USA is somehow special whenever something happens, time to move on.
having days of rememberance is one thing, using it to reopen old wounds to keep the pro-war fervour wipped up ? im not even going down that road :puke:
 

PLightstar

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How about the bombing of the Conservative party meeting in Brighton in the 80's, how about the pubs been blown up in the major cities in Britain, some of my mums family were injured in those explosions.

I agree it was a terrible thing and on a scale thats not been seen before in 'peace time' (relative term cause we are always at war with someone) but to acknowledging it every year is not the way to beat it, it is proving to the terriosts that we aren't as strong as our governments say we are if we keep dwealing on it, the US needs to move on the Western Powers need to move on, and focus on trying to slove the problems, but thats not going to happen as at the moment we are trying to safeguard our future by making sure we have enough oil supplies for our nations, which makes sense, even though we are not helping countries that may need our help more, we need to safeguard us before we can move on and defeat the terriosts factions through many different ways, miltary might just won't work, we need to find a way to prevent the reasons why these factions spring up in the first place, then at least we can stop any new recurit's. (very sorry for the rant and the spelling/grammer)
 

Bodhi

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How about the fact that Al-Queada killed the same number of people in one day than the IRA managed in 30 years? Not think that might have something to do with it?
 

old.Tohtori

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Bodhi said:
How about the fact that Al-Queada killed the same number of people in one day than the IRA managed in 30 years? Not think that might have something to do with it?

1 life, a thousand, 10 thousand, 2 million....all the same, waste.
 

Tom

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The USA had suffered with plenty of terrorist attacks before 9th September 2001. You just need to do a bit of research.

If you can find me an example in history of an attack on a world superpower as violent and shocking as what happened that day, you'll be doing well.

When you hear of an ETA attack in Spain, I bet it takes no more than 5 minutes of your attention. What did you do when you saw what happened in the US that day? I bet you were glued to the television like the rest of us.

If the Americans want to commemorate that day and the people that died, then I'm fine with that. Thousands of people died in circumstances that defy belief, and it deserves rememberance.
 

Aada

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Tom said:
The USA had suffered with plenty of terrorist attacks before 9th September 2001. You just need to do a bit of research.

If you can find me an example in history of an attack on a world superpower as violent and shocking as what happened that day, you'll be doing well.

When you hear of an ETA attack in Spain, I bet it takes no more than 5 minutes of your attention. What did you do when you saw what happened in the US that day? I bet you were glued to the television like the rest of us.

If the Americans want to commemorate that day and the people that died, then I'm fine with that. Thousands of people died in circumstances that defy belief, and it deserves rememberance.

You're right in every sense i sometimes laugh when people compare 7/7 (wow what a rip off?) to 9/11.

Flying jumbo jets into Skyscrapers was movie material before then and then it happened for REAL and yes everyone i know was glued to the TV for the entire day watching the news as you saw PEOPLE jumping from the top floor to their death and the news replaying the 2nd Jet flying into the tower.

7/7 is nothing compared to 9/11
 

Mofo8

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The closest comparison I can think of is Pearl Harbour, where recent research has suggested that the Yanks had foreknowledge of the attack beforehand (they'd successfuly cracked the Japanese Naval codes), but let it go ahead regardless for political reasons. Back than is gave them a cassus belli for declaring war on Japan (Note than they didn't join in the struggle against Germany until after Hitler declared war on them), and in 2001 it suited the nutters in America (who'd already discussed NEEDING a new Pearl Harbour) a reason to lie to their public (and the rest of the world) and basically declare war on Islam.

Maybe after the 7/7 bombing we should have declared war on Leeds?
 

Tom

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Japan declared war on the United States, which meant that Hitler by way of treaty was forced to declare war on the United States.

I think its utterly implausible to suggest that the intelligence agencies lack of action before the events of 9th September 2001 were anything other than incompetence. With hindsight its easy to say that they 'should have done something', but nobody could have expected what happened that day. Its simply unbelieveable.
 

Mofo8

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Tom said:
Japan declared war on the United States, which meant that Hitler by way of treaty was forced to declare war on the United States.

I think its utterly implausible to suggest that the intelligence agencies lack of action before the events of 9th September 2001 were anything other than incompetence. With hindsight its easy to say that they 'should have done something', but nobody could have expected what happened that day. Its simply unbelieveable.

erm.... under the terms of the Tripartite Pact, Germany, Italy, Japan and the minors like Hungary, Roumania, etc., where only obliged to come to the defence of their allies if they were attacked. Germany was not obliged to declare war on the USA and if it wasn't for the fact he'd invaded the Soviet Union, it would have been the most stupid descision he'd made during the war.

I know this has been gone over time and time again, here and elsewhere, but:

1) What about all the suspicious put options on airline stock just before the attacks Interestingly only in American Airlines and United Airlines.... not in the third major carrier Delta). Was that Bin Laden sitting in a cave somewhere (next to his handy portable dialysis machine)? Have the Americans tracked down the source of these suspicious trades? Nope! Somebody made a LOT of money because they knew airline stocks were going to crash that day (some estimates are around £15 billion).

2) What about the Enron connection to all this? The stench of Enron is everywhere you care to look on 9/11. They had links to both the Bush government and the Taliban (with whom they'd been negotiating a pipeline deal). The interim president of Afghanistan, Karzai, installed by the USA, just happened to be a former advisoe to UNACOL, the company that was to build the pipeline. Many of the documents dealing with the Enron scandal were stored in WTC7.... you know the 47 story building that managed to collapse in the manner of a controlled demolition even though it hadn't been hit by an airliner.

3) What the fuck happended to the 'plane that hit the Pentagon? I don't buy the fact that it just vaporised.

4) Why was the debris from the twin towers attacks destroyed so quickly and not retained as evidence? Remember Lockerbie when they painstakingly rebuilt the aircraft? I'm not suggesting rebuilding 2 passenger jets and a total of 267 floors of skyscraper, but they could have least have retained significant samples for investigation.

5) The are persistant claims that Condeleeza Rice phoned the mayur of San Fransisco (a close personal friend)on 10th September and warned him not to fly. Who the fucked warned her?

and finally (for now) here's an interesting quote about the 2 part drama on BBC2 that finished last night (which as far as dram and fiction goes was pretty good btw... better than Tom Clancy)

Comments by Richard Clarke, former counterterrorism czar under Presidents Clinton and Bush, and current ABC News consultant:

As someone who was directly involved in almost every event depicted in the fictionalized docudrama, "The Path to 9-11," I believe it is an egregious distortion that does a deep disservice both to history and to those in both the Clinton and Bush administrations who are depicted.

Sadly, ABC's Entertainment Division hired a production company and screen writer who were apparently unqualified to deal with this historically important subject matter. That error appears to have been compounded by the failure of some of the docudrama's consultants to insure that the account was accurate. Some of the most outrageous scenes were removed after a recent senior level review. What remains, however, is not the true story as told by the 9-11 Commission.

Although I am not one to easily believe in conspiracy theories and have spent a great deal of time debunking them, it is hard to escape the conclusion that the errors in this screen play are more than the result of dramatization and time compression. There is throughout the screenplay a consistent bias and distortion seeking to portray senior Clinton Administration officials as holding back the hard charging CIA, FBI, and military officers who would otherwise have prevented 9-11.

The exact opposite is true. From the President, to all of his White House team, and NSC Principals (Lake, Berger, Albright, Tenet, Reno) there was a common fixation with terrorism, al qaeda, and bin Ladin. The President approved every counter-terrorism operation presented to him, including many that CIA proved unable or unwilling to implement. He increased counter-terrorism spending by 400% and initiated the first homeland security program in forty years. Even though the US had taken relatively few casualties from al qaeda at the time, the President repeatedly authorized the use of lethal force against bin Ladin and his deputies and personally requested the US military to develop plans for "commando operations" against
them. Even though he knew the timing of an attack aimed at killing bin Ladin would be labeled by critics as a political diversion, Clinton decided to follow the advice of his national security team and pay the price politically.

All of us who worked on these issues, then and now, hold some responsibility for the failures to stop al qaeda. I bear that burden every day.

But if history is to know where to assign some of that culpability, it should not be guided by this fictionalization. It might better focus on leaders of the FBI who held back John O'Neill, leaders of the CIA's Clandestine Service whose risk aversion prevented the Counter Terrorism Center from doing its job, and senior generals who strongly urged the Commander-in-Chief not to use our military to go after the al qaeda leaders in Afghanistan. Somehow, all of that is missing from this not too subtle televised politicization of history.

As is so often the case, the best advice about how to think about these things comes not from people like me or others in Washington, but from the families of the victims of 9-11. Several family members issued this statement, which I strongly commend to all:

"Families of September 11 believes the best way to honor those who were lost is to make sure that what happened to them never happens again. As such, we must understand exactly what took place, and not allow "entertainers" to promote misleading or incorrect information as fact to the public.

If we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it. Any depiction of 9/11 that is not accurate and factual propagates myths, myths that may cause us future harm.

In order to make our country safer and more secure, we owe it to those who were lost to acknowledge that which took place, so that we can ensure it never happens again."
 

Paradroid

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Tom said:
Japan declared war on the United States, which meant that Hitler by way of treaty was forced to declare war on the United States.

I think its utterly implausible to suggest that the intelligence agencies lack of action before the events of 9th September 2001 were anything other than incompetence. With hindsight its easy to say that they 'should have done something', but nobody could have expected what happened that day. Its simply unbelieveable.


That's complete nonsense. They not only envisioned such an attack in numerous security briefings stretching back for years, but loads of foreign intelligence agencies gave specific warnings before the attacks. The fact that they all in unison said on 12/9/2001 that "we never even knew such a thing was possible" underlined just how much of a bunch of big fat media-twisting liars they are.

Shit, there was even a pilot episode of a new TV series called The Lone Gunmen which depicted the exact same senario (also including remote controlled planes btw) and was aired on 4/3/2001....so the US public were even aware of "such a thing".

There were loads of FBI guys reporting all the details, but their reports were buried.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1266520,00.html

linky said:
Significantly, Sheikh is also the man who, on the instructions of General Mahmoud Ahmed, the then head of Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), wired $100,000 before the 9/11 attacks to Mohammed Atta, the lead hijacker. It is extraordinary that neither Ahmed nor Sheikh have been charged and brought to trial on this count. Why not?

Ahmed, the paymaster for the hijackers, was actually in Washington on 9/11, and had a series of pre-9/11 top-level meetings in the White House, the Pentagon, the national security council, and with George Tenet, then head of the CIA, and Marc Grossman, the under-secretary of state for political affairs. When Ahmed was exposed by the Wall Street Journal as having sent the money to the hijackers, he was forced to "retire" by President Pervez Musharraf. Why hasn't the US demanded that he be questioned and tried in court?


:m00:
 

Tom

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Mofo8 said:
Somebody made a LOT of money because they knew airline stocks were going to crash that day (some estimates are around £15 billion).

Prove that anybody 'knew it'.

Mofo8 said:
2) What about the Enron connection to all this? The stench of Enron is everywhere you care to look on 9/11. They had links to both the Bush government and the Taliban (with whom they'd been negotiating a pipeline deal). The interim president of Afghanistan, Karzai, installed by the USA, just happened to be a former advisoe to UNACOL, the company that was to build the pipeline. Many of the documents dealing with the Enron scandal were stored in WTC7.... you know the 47 story building that managed to collapse in the manner of a controlled demolition even though it hadn't been hit by an airliner.

Controlled demolition my arse. Have you ever seen a building prepared for demolition with explosives? You can't hide that. The building fell because of damage from falling debris and fire. Fact.

Mofo8 said:
3) What the fuck happended to the 'plane that hit the Pentagon? I don't buy the fact that it just vaporised.

Thats your problem then. Aircraft aren't made from aluminium and made to be as lightweight as possible for no reason. They could always make them from wrought Iron if it would make you feel better. They wouldn't fly very far though.

Mofo8 said:
4) Why was the debris from the twin towers attacks destroyed so quickly and not retained as evidence? Remember Lockerbie when they painstakingly rebuilt the aircraft? I'm not suggesting rebuilding 2 passenger jets and a total of 267 floors of skyscraper, but they could have least have retained significant samples for investigation.

You don't need to rebuild the aircraft. You've got clear video evidence of exactly what happened to them. They flew into buildings at very high speed and disintegrated amongst huge fireballs of burning fuel. Also, not all of the debris was removed and destroyed. Debris was recovered from the areas around each impact, analysed, and it was demonstrated that the steel had lost most of its strength through excess heat, and that the structure had failed. Coupled with multiple camera angles showing a structural collapse of both towers, it doesn't take a genius to work out what happened.

Mofo8 said:
5) The are persistant claims that Condeleeza Rice phoned the mayur of San Fransisco (a close personal friend)on 10th September and warned him not to fly. Who the fucked warned her?

Prove it.

You can't. You can wave accusations around all you like, but until you can prove any of them, they're irrelevant. You appear to have joined the ranks of 'OMG CONSPIRACY', well done mate you're now officially an idiot. Especially if you believe in the old 'controlled demolition' story heh.
 

Aada

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I've watched too many videos now to believe it was a terroist attack the goverment were behind it i mean 2 towers built to withstand earthquakes do not just collapse like that on the video you can see what looks like a chemical melting the top of the tower.

You don't get that reaction from Fuel and there is a very interesting video on you Tube which makes you think alot about the events that day.
 

Wij

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Aada said:
I've watched too many videos now to believe it was a terroist attack the goverment were behind it i mean 2 towers built to withstand earthquakes do not just collapse like that on the video you can see what looks like a chemical melting the top of the tower.

You don't get that reaction from Fuel and there is a very interesting video on you Tube which makes you think alot about the events that day.

Fuck off.
 

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