9/11 again

ECA

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Tom, you cant expect them to see that, I've only posted the fighter jet disintegrating when it hit the concrete wall about five times in other WTC threads.

Why bother? They dont wanna know.
 

Tom

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ECA said:
Tom, you cant expect them to see that, I've only posted the fighter jet disintegrating when it hit the concrete wall about five times in other WTC threads.

Why bother? They dont wanna know.

I've still not had an answer to the question of debris falling more quickly than the collapse of the twin towers.
 

Marc

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haha a controlled explosion brought down the twin towers!! Classic!
 

Scouse

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BTW. I must say I'm totally undecided about whether the WTC was "us" or "them". I'm leaning towards the "them" rather than us doing it to ourselves but I can't say with honesty that I've read anywhere near enough to have a well-formed opinion.

Krazeh said:
And just a final point, I take it you are all aware of how a conman operates? The most important aspect of a con is showing whoever you are trying to con exactly what they expect to see so they don't have any reason to question what has happened. If the US Government had a hand in this do you not think they would have ensured that we saw exactly what we expected to see and not have left loads of little supposed questions floating around for conspiracy theorists to jump all over?

But about this (I've skipped a large section of the thread btw). Do you honestly believe that if this was self-inflicted that the US Government would be able to cover up something of this magnitude completely?

No chance, IMHO.

The conspiracy theories bandied around persist not just because of the natural (and healthy (though increasingly lacking)) paranoia of the public but also because it looks like there could be truth in there somewhere.

I'm not saying there definitely is - but for a conspiracy theory to not just get discarded by the masses, rather than grow in strength as many of these have, there's got to be enough reason in the argument for people to begin to consider it.
 

Tom

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The best conspiracy theories throw just enough truth into the mix of misquotes, lies, scaremongering and misinformation to make them seem plausible.
 

Scouse

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Tom said:
The best conspiracy theories throw just enough truth into the mix of misquotes, lies, scaremongering and misinformation to make them seem plausible.

I agree. But it doesn't make them all wrong.

You're not going to win any popularity contests if you choose to be a sceptic for precisely the same reasons I stated earlier. People don't want to believe conspiracy theories.

People want to accept the evils 'Western' cultures do - because to not accept them means that, if you're a person of integrity, you would feel compelled to do something about it. After all, the government acts in your name and if you disagree with their policy then you'd vote them out.

But what if all western government policy is evil? Do you really think that the British public has what it takes to revolt anymore?

No. And because of that the government policy won't change. And our recourse is to accept it. And because, on some level, it feels bad we lap up our own propaganda.

It's a pain in the ass being a sceptic. Life is no longer simple. If you decide that you're going to make ethical choices then the simple things like shopping become an exercise in mental agility. After all, if you want to behave in an ethical way you should boycott products from companies with ethics that are not in line with your own. And there's a lot of them.

It costs money, it costs time and you are challenged about your beliefs and therefore have to spend time justifying yourself to an audience who doesn't want to consider your point of view.

Why? Because if you think like that and don't act ethically then you'll feel bad. And the way not to feel bad is to act ethically. And then you end up feeling like the sceptic. Life is just that little less easy. Not much but just enough.

I just don't think that the British public would choose that anymore. We're alright Jack, remember?
 

Mofo8

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Krazeh said:
Quick question for the conspiracy theorists. What purpose did the US Government have for killing 3000 of their citizens, destroying 3 buildings in the World Trade Centre and destroying a chunk of their military command?

Google 'Enron', 'Taliban' and 'Pipeline' just for starters. Then Google 'Department of Homeland Security' and 'Patriot Act'. Then look for sites talking about the $100 billion in suspicious insider trading done in the towers early that morning.

Krazeh said:
Also how is it that not a single person involved in this "conspiracy" has not come forward? Any conspiracy theory on the scale you are proposing would require hundreds of people to pull off yet noone has had an attack of conscience and spoke up. This includes all the people who would have been required to wire up the WTC for controlled demolition and therefore would have spent a considerable amount of time around the people who died when the towers collapsed.

So.... if someone from within the US Government or Military and/or a foreign power like Mossad did it, it would require thousands of people, but, if on the other hand it was Osama's lot, all you'd need is 1 old man in a cave and 19 arabs?

Here someone describes a scenario in which as little as 50 people would need to be involved.

I don't know why so many people have a problem with conspiracy theories. They are after all simply theories about conspiracies. People use the term as if the theory itself is somehow conspiratorial. The government's case against the alleged liquid bomb plotters is in effect a conspiracy theory and will remain so until they prove it. Nothing wrong with theories at all.
 

Calaen

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Life would be great if we just left the middle eastern countries to destroy each other, we could then go in and kill the victors and leave the land barren and useless (after we have drilled all the resources of course).

We constantly stick our noses in :-( lets just leave them to it.

I am still not 100% certain that the WTC event was what it has been portrayed to be. not with regards to the actual towers but to the pentagon and the mysterious other flight.
 

Calaen

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Mofo8 said:
Google 'Enron', 'Taliban' and 'Pipeline' just for starters. Then Google 'Department of Homeland Security' and 'Patriot Act'. Then look for sites talking about the $100 billion in suspicious insider trading done in the towers early that morning.



So.... if someone from within the US Government or Military and/or a foreign power like Mossad did it, it would require thousands of people, but, if on the other hand it was Osama's lot, all you'd need is 1 old man in a cave and 19 arabs?

Here someone describes a scenario in which as little as 50 people would need to be involved.

I agree American government is dodgy as fuck, they are all capable and most of them would fucking do it.
 

ECA

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Mofo8 said:
Google 'Enron', 'Taliban' and 'Pipeline' just for starters. Then Google 'Department of Homeland Security' and 'Patriot Act'. Then look for sites talking about the $100 billion in suspicious insider trading done in the towers early that morning.


Yes why dont you.

And then add +debunk.

Fucksticks.
 

Munkey

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dont forget the jews who left the building that morning because they knew there was an attack!
 

Mofo8

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ECA said:
Yes why dont you.

And then add +debunk.

Fucksticks.

So... what are you saying? That there was no talks between the USA, Enron and the Taliban about a pipeline? Funny because even I remember that from before 9/11 or as I like to call it 11th September 2001, there were talks that failed....

Or are you saying that there was no suspicious trading prior to the attacks? If so... then you are an arsehole! Excuse my cunting French!

Or are you saying that the Patriot Act and the DHS have made the USA and the world a safer, fluffier place to live.... bollocks.... poor old George Orwell must have span right out of his fucking grave by now..... endless war against terror.... et fucking cetera
 

Wij

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So pointless - the conspiracy theories aren't even consistent. You debunk one aspect and they move onto another. They point stuff out as weird which just makes no sense when you think about it (like where is the debris from the planes that hit the twin towers - i mean who fucking cares we all SAW them hit them - it's a fact). Nobody can keep enough info in their head to see if every theory has been debunked so they carry on because that's what they want to believe.

Sad wastes of life.
 

Mofo8

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Wij said:
So pointless - the conspiracy theories aren't even consistent. You debunk one aspect and they move onto another. They point stuff out as weird which just makes no sense when you think about it (like where is the debris from the planes that hit the twin towers - i mean who fucking cares we all SAW them hit them - it's a fact). Nobody can keep enough info in their head to see if every theory has been debunked so they carry on because that's what they want to believe.

Sad wastes of life.

I personally believe that passenger aircraft impacted with both the main towers of the WTC. I don't believe that the collapse was due to this or that some old arab on dialysis and 19 arab flight school drop-outs (many of whom are blatantley alive) did IT. Is no-one else bothered by the fact that Bush:

1) Squirmed his way into power

2) Has links with Enron

3) Has links with 'Big Oil'

4) Has links with the Bin Ladens

5) Is a complete fuckwit?
 

Wij

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Mofo8 said:
I personally believe that passenger aircraft impacted with both the main towers of the WTC. I don't believe that the collapse was due to this or that some old arab on dialysis and 19 arab flight school drop-outs (many of whom are blatantley alive) did IT. Is no-one else bothered by the fact that Bush:

1) Squirmed his way into power

2) Has links with Enron

3) Has links with 'Big Oil'

4) Has links with the Bin Ladens

5) Is a complete fuckwit?

And so your real agenda comes out.
 

Tom

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mofo8 said:
So... what are you saying? That there was no talks between the USA, Enron and the Taliban about a pipeline? Funny because even I remember that from before 9/11 or as I like to call it 11th September 2001, there were talks that failed....

What does this have to do with anything?

mofo8 said:
Or are you saying that there was no suspicious trading prior to the attacks? If so... then you are an arsehole! Excuse my cunting French!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/911_Co..._insider_trading_by_people_with_foreknowledge

mofo8 said:
Or are you saying that the Patriot Act and the DHS have made the USA and the world a safer, fluffier place to live.... bollocks.... poor old George Orwell must have span right out of his fucking grave by now..... endless war against terror.... et fucking cetera

What does the Patriot Act have to do with the rest of the world? You're not one of these people who thinks that USA = world? Do you think anybody in any other country than the US gives a shit about their laws? And I'll remind you that as recently as the 1980's, the UK had quite draconian laws in place to restrict the ability of the IRA to make announcements. Even Gerry Adams voice was banned from the airwaves, not that it mattered as they just voiced him instead.

Mofo8 said:
19 arab flight school drop-outs (many of whom are blatantley alive) did IT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/911_Co... this have to do with the attacks of 11/9/01?
 

WPKenny

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I'm loathe to get involved in this debate as tbh, I've not made my mind up about it.

I just want to throw a theory out there that no one seems to have spelt out in so many words.

What if the US goverment made this happen simply by inaction? What if they didn't actually have to do anything?
Instead of top secret operations on a daily basis foiling terrorist attacks on US soil, they let this one slip through the net.

Fuck the theory that the towers were blown up. I'm perfectly willing to accept the planes did it all by themselves. I'm perfectly willing to accept it was terrorists that planned and executed the whole damn thing. But I'm also willing to accept that the US government knew about it and didn't do a thing to prevent it so they would have the biggest punctuation mark on the end of the word TERRORIST! And thus begins the War on Terror.
 

Calaen

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Now there is a thought.

Lets see what Tom finds on Wikipedia to squash your evil way of thinking :p
 

yaruar

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Calaen said:
Now there is a thought.

Lets see what Tom finds on Wikipedia to squash your evil way of thinking :p
I should write a spackypedia artical debunking Tom as an urban myth :)
 

adams901

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The people covering up what really happened on 9/11 are the same people that want us to believe the world is round. It is all one big conspiracy because anyone knows the world is really flat, if it was round it would just roll away.
 

Mofo8

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I'm now eagerly awaiting a Wikedpeia post from Tom proving he's not a cockmonger.....

:)
 

Paradroid

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Tom said:
I've still not had an answer to the question of debris falling more quickly than the collapse of the twin towers.


You've been told ... there were explosives ... explosives make things accelerate.


3-part vid on 911 demolition worth watching (30 mins a piece):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7143212690219513043&q=911+Mysteries+-+Demolitions

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-999558027849894376&q=911+Mysteries+-+Demolitions

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1162851149755261569&sourceid=zeitgeist



...the more I see the more I'm convinced something was up.

I mean, take something simple like all the arguments about the maximum temperature that aviation fuel can burn at. Everyone agreed is couldn't melt steel, the official story says it "softened" it (but also failed to explain how all the steel supports magically softened, but I digress). These videos (and many others) show molten steel flowing from parts of the building, there was molten steel under the rubble for days after the collapse - a clear indication thermite/thermate was used.


I would be keen to adopt the view "they knew about it, but did nothing" (as it fitted their needs at home & abroad).

....but, when you consider Larry Silverstein bought the complex just a few short months before hand (and got $7 BILLION in insurance from a $14 MILLION investment), Bush's younger brother (and cousin?) ran the security company that had the contract for the WTC (and one of the highjackers airports), the week before 911 there was a highly unusual amount of maintenance (electricity was cut-out, free access throughout the complex, reports of whole floors being empty but with heavy machinery being moved around, and coincidences upon coincidences like no other day in the history of the universe). So, on reflection I'd have to choose "people on the inside made this happen they way it happened". Street theatre of the NWO.

:m00:
 

Tom

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Paradroid said:
You've been told ... there were explosives ... explosives make things accelerate.

So explosives caused huge sections of the walls to fall faster than the central core?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_dYlFrQKbo

Yeah right. I think you're slightly overestimating the power of explosives to push large pieces of debris out that far.

Paradroid said:

Ooo, nice post. Great way to put your argument forward, using a video that from the outset states its bias towards a conspiracy theory. How about you post something entirely neutral, with contributions from both sides of this argument, and let intelligent people decide what happened?

Paradroid said:
...the more I see the more I'm convinced something was up.

I mean, take something simple like all the arguments about the maximum temperature that aviation fuel can burn at. Everyone agreed is couldn't melt steel, the official story says it "softened" it (but also failed to explain how all the steel supports magically softened, but I digress). These videos (and many others) show molten steel flowing from parts of the building, there was molten steel under the rubble for days after the collapse - a clear indication thermite/thermate was used.

You don't need to soften all the supports. You simply need to soften enough of them so that when combined with the damage to the exterior faces of the towers structural failure becomes inevitable.

You also have yet to demonstrate how you know that molten steel is flowing from the building. Do you have samples of this substance? Do you have any kind of proof? I tell you what, I reckon its molten aluminium. Prove me wrong, I dare you.

As for molten steel under the rubble, do you have any proof other than anecdotal evidence from unqualified witnesses?


Paradroid said:
I would be keen to adopt the view "they knew about it, but did nothing" (as it fitted their needs at home & abroad).

....but, when you consider Larry Silverstein bought the complex just a few short months before hand (and got $7 BILLION in insurance from a $14 MILLION investment), Bush's younger brother (and cousin?) ran the security company that had the contract for the WTC (and one of the highjackers airports), the week before 911 there was a highly unusual amount of maintenance (electricity was cut-out, free access throughout the complex, reports of whole floors being empty but with heavy machinery being moved around, and coincidences upon coincidences like no other day in the history of the universe). So, on reflection I'd have to choose "people on the inside made this happen they way it happened". Street theatre of the NWO.

:m00:

Right, heres the question you should be able to answer then:

Who gave the order?

Who was it who said "hey guys, lets fool the public into thinking that Islamic fundamentalist terrorists flew passenger aircraft into our landmarks"?

Who was it who stood there and suggested this, and was sure that of the many hundreds, possibly thousands of people required to carry out this crime, not a single one of them would have a slight pang of concience and spill the beans? Christ, Watergate was a simple bugging of a few offices, and look how that turned out....
 

Wij

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Tom said:
Right, heres the question you should be able to answer then:

Who gave the order?

Who was it who said "hey guys, lets fool the public into thinking that Islamic fundamentalist terrorists flew passenger aircraft into our landmarks"?

Who was it who stood there and suggested this, and was sure that of the many hundreds, possibly thousands of people required to carry out this crime, not a single one of them would have a slight pang of concience and spill the beans? Christ, Watergate was a simple bugging of a few offices, and look how that turned out....

Indeed - it's laughable to think you could cover this up and noone would squeal.
 

Wij

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Paradroid said:
You've been told ... there were explosives ... explosives make things accelerate.


3-part vid on 911 demolition worth watching (30 mins a piece):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7143212690219513043&q=911+Mysteries+-+Demolitions

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-999558027849894376&q=911+Mysteries+-+Demolitions

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1162851149755261569&sourceid=zeitgeist

...the more I see the more I'm convinced something was up.

I mean, take something simple like all the arguments about the maximum temperature that aviation fuel can burn at. Everyone agreed is couldn't melt steel, the official story says it "softened" it (but also failed to explain how all the steel supports magically softened, but I digress). These videos (and many others) show molten steel flowing from parts of the building, there was molten steel under the rubble for days after the collapse - a clear indication thermite/thermate was used.


I would be keen to adopt the view "they knew about it, but did nothing" (as it fitted their needs at home & abroad).

....but, when you consider Larry Silverstein bought the complex just a few short months before hand (and got $7 BILLION in insurance from a $14 MILLION investment), Bush's younger brother (and cousin?) ran the security company that had the contract for the WTC (and one of the highjackers airports), the week before 911 there was a highly unusual amount of maintenance (electricity was cut-out, free access throughout the complex, reports of whole floors being empty but with heavy machinery being moved around, and coincidences upon coincidences like no other day in the history of the universe). So, on reflection I'd have to choose "people on the inside made this happen they way it happened". Street theatre of the NWO.

:m00:

http://www.mininova.org/tor/294483

Episode 303.
 

Paradroid

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Wij said:
Indeed - it's laughable to think you could cover this up and noone would squeal.


It wouldn't have taken hundreds of people to orchestrate 911, most of those involved would be fully signed-up members of the establishment (ie State Secrets carrying an automatic 25-40 years in jail). The foot-soldiers (and it's been proven scientifically) will push any button and do anything if told by someone with authority - that's what they're trained to do after all.

Take this wee scenario:

Neocons want to change the direction of political affairs to favour the USA internationally and themselves internally, which no one seems to doubt (ie probable cause).

The USA have a long history of funding/encouraging so-called "insurgents" in other countries to try and force internal change...coups involving bloodletting are the norm (eg Chile on 11/9/1973...911 again, spookily enough). If they can happily do it abroad (in someone elses country), think how easily they could do it at home?. The reason I'm saying this is, what if Osama Bin Laden is entirely a CIA asset (as theorised)? This would have an effect on the culpability aspect of any criminal charges.


The US security services uncover (or plan) a plot which is basically/roughly 911 as we know it. They know (because they're cunning and have read history books and understand human psychology) that if they foil this plot they gain nothing from it and the so-called terrorists will strike again elsewhere possibly catching them by surprise and causing a real upset (if, indeed, it wasn't a US plan from the start).

So, the fact that they "uncovered" a 911-style plot gives them (basically) all the post-911 political clout they need within the background on capitol hill. Think about it. The US president (more likely someone higher up the financial food-chain) calls a secret meeting and tells "important" players in the game what they've discovered - that we're going to be attacked. That if we foil the attack the next one could be hugely damaging, and their best bet is to allow the terrorists to fulfill their plan but within a controlled environment. That way they get all the benefits of the publically backed political clout to actually address the real problem (in their eyes anyway) of this anti-USA terrorist threat, by way of a focussed war in the middle-east.

The entire US economy benefits from this (as they're a huge weapons manufacturer, and lets not forget all that lovely oil revenue).

I don't want to over-simplify this, but even I can see a way of contriving peoples opinion towards the goal of letting it happen. Each person involved (or group of people) will have had their own "information" fed to them, their own set of agends that could be fulfilled.

The military - it's all good there innit? Apart from the dead soldiers...but war is hell isn't it?
The intelligence/security community - they play puppet-masters again.
The US economy - well, where do you start? Everything from: Their military-industrial complex is geared towards war (most money spent on military); it'll avoid/prolong a slide into reccession (Enron anyone?); Iraq and other oil producers were talking about moving oil trading from Dollars to Euros, wiping out the US's ability to give itself a free loan; etc, etc, etc,.......
The Rebublicans - they get to rule the roost in Washington for a while and get loads of dodgy legislation passed, while forcing citizens to give up their freedoms (just like the "terrorists" want).
The Democrats - (see Republicans).
Larry Silverstein - was probably convinced by neocons that there was an imminent terrorist attack, some people would die but it wasn't our fault anyway, the WTC towers also needed a huge repair bill anyway. He might have been told that they'd clear the buildings before demolishing them (but someone further-up decided they needed a bigger impact from bigger body-counts)....what's he going to do after the fact? Come clean and say it was just a convenient insurance job gone wrong?
The Bush family empire - well, again, where do you start? They're a fukin oil company! Daddy works for Carlyle group, no problems there (even the Saudis were happy). Brother Jeb runs Florida, who got him elected and had a State of Emergency declared 2 days before 911 (funny that). Brother Marvin ran the security company that had the contracts for the WTC and one of the highjacked airports.
Dick Cheney - ran Halliburton and oversaw them becoming unchallenged recipients of huge contracts for Iraq.
Donald Rumsfeld - he lives this shit. He's the real political "hawk" who's been trying to mould public perception about one "scarey bogey-man" after another for more than 30 years. The bullshit we were subjected to about WMD was pure Rumsfeld. In the 70's he was banging his anti-Russia/communist drum and saying they had weapons so advanced, sooo advanced, that we weren't even able to see them! (That's just how advanced that threat was!)


:m00:
 

Tom

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So now you've gone from the buildings being purposely demolished with explosives and thermite, to the original terrorist plot being the conspiracy.

Lots of ifs buts and maybes in there, but no actual proof of any description. Make your mind up.
 

Tom

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Mofo8 said:
Guys.... what made the bits of the building go upwards? (like in this picture?), gravity?

View attachment 3030

Have you ever whacked a piece of concrete with a hammer? I have. Surprisingly, bits of concrete fly off in all directions. Its called energy.
 

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