what should mythic do to sort out gimp classes?

[Garbannoch]

The problem is that a group has 8 slots - it doesnt matter how much Mythic tries to balance classes there will always be 'better' ones and then those who don't have a (important) role and therefore won't get a group.

The game as it is now is as balanced as it can get. Take the best possible group setups from each realm and they are fairly equal (keep in mind that there are slight advantages in the following form: hib > alb, alb > mid, mid > hib). But ofc this does not mean that all classes are balanced...

The best possible balance Mythic could achieve would be to have 8 different classes in each group; or in other words all classes should have some essential task which would make them worthwhile grouping... This sounds good but unfortunately I would have no idea how to do that (or can you imagine a serious group going out with only 1 main healer as the game is atm?!)

 

[Ola]

The RA change may well bring GP to alb which is a huge start in forming a strong pbae group, but it doesn't change the fact alb needs about 12 classes to get all the utility of a hib pbae group.

Not saying alb mage grps dont need help or anything, but... 12 classes to get all the utility of a hib pbae group? You will get LOADS more utility with those 12 classes, which you fail to mention.. For example if you get minstrel you dont only gain speed (but SoS, instant stun, 2x interrupting DDs, cure mezz etc), if you get theurgist you dont only gain pbt (but stlong pets, root etc). And yes I know alb pb grp need some help, but not like you saying it there..

 

[Akyma]

IMO i think the following needs to happen to the classes ive played a fiar bit

Paladin.
Up the dmg,
Sort out twisting 4 keys + running around + styles is too much hassle
some sort of morph for 50 chants, Archangel, or Destiny Knight a realm ability perhaps.
If Det is not totally removed from the game as i think it should be let pallys get it

Wizard.
Kill Earth spec
Put Aoe root and dot into ice
Put Earth Bolt into fire and aoe snare
Give both specs the high lvl gtaoe.
Perhaps put the Ice base DD into spec for slightly more dmg

This way the fire wiz becomes the DAMAGE MONSTER it should be. 3 bolts OH MY
and the ice wiz gets some util and a nice single dot to put on enemy pbaoers b4 getting to them

Top level gtaoe aint gonna make either spec uber so may as well chuck it in

Necros should be nerfed in PVE by making the mana drain 30 sec timer or something

yes, true mate, but paladin need purge for 4 points, ip 8, VP too? and pet, paladin need orange pet...
stop post in foros after drink plz Oo

 

[Puppet]

lol yes boost the paladin. Afterall, they were on par with the warden, are now twice as good after some patches, on to 4 times as good imo.

And druids are better then clerics....
heroes are better then armsman....
eldritch better then wizard....
enchanter better then cabalist....

Its not good to compare classes like that. Yes, the warden might need some help (mostly because they're typical hybrids who dont excel in anything) but comparing them to paladins brings you nowhere.

Not to mention the two classes are entirely different

 

[Raven]

does it really matter for you albs, even if you had 5 uber over powered classes you wouls still camp amg/mmg emain.

rangers, scouts and hunters should get some sort of tracking ability where enemies leave tracks or something

 

[Sohan_thc]

giff 10 slot groups that all

 

[Filip]

And druids are better then clerics....

agree

heroes are better then armsman....

Semi-agree... mostly i find the armsman gimped vs hibs (reroll all to merc plz)

but vs mids with no pbt they are not that bad ... but that dont help much though ...

eldritch better then wizard....

enchanter better then cabalist....

and about the wizz and cabby .. oh yes ..

 

[Knudden]

And druids are better then clerics....
heroes are better then armsman....
eldritch better then wizard....
enchanter better then cabalist....

merc are better then blademaster

sorc are better then menta

cleric are better then druid (well my cleric would kick my druids ass anytime have better insta (same lvl insta) and more timer buffs+ better armor larger shield

armsmen are better then hero's (take a look at there armor and what dmg type used the most and there special ra's)

infil better then nightshade
bla
bla
bla
bla

 

[Bracken]

does it really matter for you albs, even if you had 5 uber over powered classes you wouls still camp amg

And you would be bothered about people camping amg because? Change the record already :touch:

 

[Freppe]

I doubt mythic made this game so every similiar class in opposite realm would be equal. All classes got their own special advantages against their opponents. Lets see, mids are good in the tank style, also alb while worst is Hib imo. In the caster style i'd have to say hib then, they've made the realm to be about magic which then hibernia should have advantages as casters. I guess, albs are average on both.

One thing that bothered me before all this buffbot craps came along, was that hib often had 3 chars to buff as. While the others had 2. But thats nm now since all got BB's anyway.

What mythic should review on is chars like Mentalists, Champions, Animists, Valewalkers, Thanes, Runemasters, Cabalists, Wizards.

I guess, changing the interupt system would be awesome, thats atleast my dream, into something good. Giving all tanks Determination, doesnt matter if theyre hybrids or whatever, giving it to everyone, would in my point, make these ungrped tanks nowdays, a far better chance to get a group.

Tho i doubt any of my requests would ever be made, cus in some way, i think mythic like gimp classes to get some whine!

 

[SethNaket]

Let champ/thane selfbuffs stack with conc buffs!
Let paladins run all their chants at the same time at 0 powercost(without needing to twist). Well maybe not all but say, 3 or 4.
Dunno about reavers and valewalkers, they seem better off than the above already.
Add 2 extra slots to groups that can only be filled by Rogues!

 

[Big Ugly]

give hunter evade4 and str/dex based swords pls

 

[etcetra]

Give Thane's their own weaponspec, like "Stormhammer" or something.

:worthy: Thor

 

[Shrye]

Heh, as long as the maximum group size won't allow for one (or more) of each class, ofcourse some classes won't be accepted into these - as long as there's better options (and there always will be) for a spot, they simply ain't getting in if the main objective is to be/remain competitive on the highest level. Natural progression, etc...

Cba reading whole thread tho ;p bet there's anything worth reading, all of it consisting of "QQ my class sucks!" and "aww, you're so right <pad on back>" --v

 

[-Freezingwiz-]

merc are better then blademaster

sorc are better then menta

cleric are better then druid (well my cleric would kick my druids ass anytime have better insta (same lvl insta) and more timer buffs+ better armor larger shield

armsmen are better then hero's (take a look at there armor and what dmg type used the most and there special ra's)

infil better then nightshade
bla
bla
bla
bla

lol tbh ^^

Sorc vs Mentslist... main CC class vs secondary CC class... Sorcs are only used to debuff and CC FYI (and DD if needed)

Clerics vs Druid ... Pet that interupt no matter what lvl.... WOW medium shield can block 2 enemys witha 5% chance !

Hero vs Arms... Arms need to dubble spec, Heros got Moose, and plate armor got 5% absorbe, but evade give more then 5% when u are buffed FYI !

NS vs infil ^^ well no doubt there

 

[Puppet]

merc are better then blademaster

Ehm, how so? Because in duels the merc pops dirty tricks so he wins? Or because the BM has more chance to not get slammed (evade 3 vs evade 1), and has a way of boosting his damage (triple-wield) as an offensive tank ?

sorc are better then menta

Yep.

cleric are better then druid (well my cleric would kick my druids ass anytime have better insta (same lvl insta) and more timer buffs+ better armor larger shield

Larger shield is a total non-issue, duels are not important, and I do prefer a interrupting pet + single target root + a viable 3rd line over the cleric. BTW I play both characters; I see the cleric as a gimped druid who lost a viable 3rd line and the pet for some stupid fluff like a heal-proc.

Armour: Well you can look at it different ways; but nowadays Mids often use savages with piercing-h2h weapons and Albs use thrust alot on Armsman and Mercs (tho slash is used too). Overall I dont mind the slash-vulnerable scale much on my druid.

armsmen are better then hero's (take a look at there armor and what dmg type used the most and there special ra's)

What damage type used most? I prefer to look at their own capabilities an think the fact a hero can go MAX offensive with LW/CS and MAX defensive on shield is a major plus for a hero. You cannot go 50 shield 50 Pole/2H on an armsman; this is possible on a hero.

 

[Aussie]

merc are better then blademaster

sorc are better then menta

cleric are better then druid (well my cleric would kick my druids ass anytime have better insta (same lvl insta) and more timer buffs+ better armor larger shield

armsmen are better then hero's (take a look at there armor and what dmg type used the most and there special ra's)

infil better then nightshade
bla
bla
bla
bla

lol this is even better that that r9 chanter that didnt know about volley

 

[Aussie]

and comparing a sorc with menta coz they both can take a pet is completly lol xD

 

[Belomar]

giv something at 50 enha, coz it r stupid that we dont get anything at 50 enha.

Then why spec it?

 

[Belomar]

What mythic should review on is chars like Mentalists, Champions, Animists, Valewalkers, Thanes, Runemasters, Cabalists, Wizards.

Nooo! Don't "review" Cabalists, we know what that means and it can only make us worse. After this patch's changes, Cabalists are fine (at least spirit Cabalists, but many classes have only one viable specline anyway).

 

[Gordonax]

The problem is that a group has 8 slots - it doesnt matter how much Mythic tries to balance classes there will always be 'better' ones and then those who don't have a (important) role and therefore won't get a group.

The other option is to have more than one or two viable group set ups. Of course, that depends on the players actually bothering to experiment and think for themselves...

 

[Freppe]

What would help far better is for people to stop standing around in DL for 2 hours waiting for a det tank when there's 30 non-det tanks yelling lfg, and try out stuff themselves instead of following the fotm trends. These days I just leave groups if there's that kind of fotm attitude in it. Had a group with 3 valewalkers as tanks last night, and it did by far better than any rvr guild fotm det-tank group I've ever seen or been in. And that wasn't the best thing about it. The best thing was that the people in the group were actually eager to try it out.

Sure but 90% of the ppl want tanks with det. So they actually could do smth for the group, if all tanks would have it, it would sure mean more grps for those who aint got it now. Ppl are elitists and want to win, to have a non-det tank in grp will make the chance of winning lower. Thats how it is! And will allways be until they do smth about it.

 

[Herjulf]

Atm i feel one of the moste gimpy classes allround imo without a doubt is Shaman.

Very sucky heals.
No weapon styles.
No helping self only buffs like Healer have if they go into aug line.
The offensive spec line Cave Magic, is a mere shadow of the cabalist.

Soloing as shaman is not an survival plan.

What shamans need:

A TL
DMG up, they need the a RA similar to that of NS that raises DOT dmg, an active RA.
Overal DMG up on DD, bolt and Dot.
Quickcast.
Snare and more debuffs.
Insta something.. more then a low radius pbaoe disease.
That can interrupt or have a function.
Self only buffs to help the shaman, a grp cast pref chant end regen or buffs. so that they can have use of the croc ring.

What makes shaman ok, is as Buffbot atm, but not even there are they best. infact as buffbot shaman is the worst of all 3 realms.


And finally they need a ANTI radar function so that the fotm HIB grps visiting emain can leave them alone when they hide inside trees.
no names mentioned but shurely reported to goa ^^

 

[Night]

Give Reavers tank RA's and I wont be such a grp gimp

pls Mythic! :worthy:

 

[Shrye]

"What would help far better is for people to stop standing around in DL for 2 hours waiting for a det tank when there's 30 non-det tanks yelling lfg, and try out stuff themselves instead of following the fotm trends. These days I just leave groups if there's that kind of fotm attitude in it. Had a group with 3 valewalkers as tanks last night, and it did by far better than any rvr guild fotm det-tank group I've ever seen or been in. And that wasn't the best thing about it. The best thing was that the people in the group were actually eager to try it out."

- Ensceptificamuralya

Wouldn't by chance be because you haven't been in any of the >good< FOTM groups the last year or so, due to your own spec? There's a reason why the FOTM groups arise, usually because the better players find out that it's the best setup, however that doesn't mean that all the shitty n00bs who copies their style becomes good player all of sudden ;p

 

[Hotrats]

hmm...Hotrats, I can't agree with all your points. PBAE ca be used very well as an offensive weapon, as 3 pbae's will create HUGE dmg output in let's say 2 blasts. I've downloaded a TB video with body / mind sorc (last cold debuff) and it seems very viable to me.
....
...... which would give ice wizzys high dmg pbae PLUS a high dmg single nuke, no class has that

Chanter has had pbae and high ranged damage for a long long time, the debuff, at last, took a nerf this patch but the main problem for alb is the heat nuke still does high damage unless you have friar resists, but at least having friar resists makes a difference this patch (after being debuffed). Alb is cursed as the only realm to not get all 6 resist buffs; although hib groups might not always group a warden if it did not have resist buffs the fact it also brings pbt to the group is at least an additional incentive to group one. Lack of determination is probably the sole reason albs don't take 1 friar in every group, a lack of determination as a support class is acceptable (especially if that group has GP), but as a tank even if you bring a little utility not having det is a major factor. Of course the RA review may change this (hopefully ).

lol yes boost the paladin. Afterall, they were on par with the warden, are now twice as good after some patches, on to 4 times as good imo.

A warden should be compared to a friar not a pala, its a lot better than a friar like I already said; swap the friar for the warden, would hib groups still take a friar? (if the friar did body/energy/spirit buffs) possibly tank groups because of GP but very unlikely a caster group would, hence the major problem of putting 83% of resist buffs on support classes then the last set for alb on a hybrid tank, it almost forces albs to lose heat/cold/matter resists when they run any type of caster group.
You could compare a warden to a theurg but you don't group either of those classes for pbt
Warden and pala are pretty balanced but they both bring totally different things to a group.

The game as it is now is as balanced as it can get. Take the best possible group setups from each realm and they are fairly equal (keep in mind that there are slight advantages in the following form: hib > alb, alb > mid, mid > hib). But ofc this does not mean that all classes are balanced...

I agree, I just wish they had fixed dps debuff to make that balance even closer, a few weeks before TOA with the best game balance (providing you play the right group setups) we have seen since DaoC release would have been sweet.

Not saying alb mage grps dont need help or anything, but... 12 classes to get all the utility of a hib pbae group? You will get LOADS more utility with those 12 classes, which you fail to mention..

Yes true, but classes like a friar (again) only really bring resist buffs to the pbae group, you could spec it to heal but there just isn't room for it in a alb caster group. Paladin (for end regen) also brings guard but without determination its not very reliable so your also gonna need a shield spec arms. Cabalist for disease, the extra pet is nice and could also use the debuffs for the sorc/theurg.
Anyway your right most classes bring a few things extra to a group, but the problem is a lot of them aren't very useful. Almost every class in a typical hib pbae group has 90%+ of its skills used effectively. Damage shield is one of the few useless skills I can think of that a hib pbae group has.

merc are better then blademaster

sorc are better then menta

cleric are better then druid (well my cleric would kick my druids ass anytime have better insta (same lvl insta) and more timer buffs+ better armor larger shield

armsmen are better then hero's (take a look at there armor and what dmg type used the most and there special ra's)

infil better then nightshade
bla
bla
bla
bla

merc and bm are pretty even, TW is very useful vs BoF and to get that extra damage fast, DT is great if you go for tanks first.
Sorc should be compared to bard (main cc class); mentalist is prolly best compared to a matter cabalist (ae dot) but its a very unique class and can't really be compared to any other class imo.
Druid has a decent 3rd line which is >>>> clerics, just the pet alone makes a druid better than a cleric, let alone ST root, ae root, INSTA root etc.
Arms and hero; well SB tips the balance in favour of the arms if both play defence, as offence the double spec requirement of the arms is annoying, quite rare to take these classes for offence these days.
infil well DF needs a nerf imo.

Atm i feel one of the moste gimpy classes allround imo without a doubt is Shaman.

Very sucky heals.
No weapon styles.
No helping self only buffs like Healer have if they go into aug line.
The offensive spec line Cave Magic, is a mere shadow of the cabalist.

Soloing as shaman is not an survival plan.

What shamans need:

A TL
DMG up, they need the a RA similar to that of NS that raises DOT dmg, an active RA.
Overal DMG up on DD, bolt and Dot.
Quickcast.
Snare and more debuffs.
Insta something.. more then a low radius pbaoe disease.
That can interrupt or have a function.
Self only buffs to help the shaman, a grp cast pref chant end regen or buffs. so that they can have use of the croc ring.

A shaman brings 3 very important things to a group; end regen, resist buffs and disease (ranged and insta that interupts!), it also has root, ae root, a long range interupt (bolt) and a DoT. Granted its secondary abilities aren't amazing but a class wearing chain with such utility will NEVER do high damage (a cabalist wears CLOTH armor remember!), as a secondary healing class its heals will also never be very good, QC is cloth only, I would be happy for a shaman to get QC and have to wear cloth armor, very happy
Shaman already has Ichor and pbae disease as instant spells, I really don't think any more instant spells are needed (unless they don't interupt, then maybe a ST str and ST dex debuff could be added).
Shaman is a great support class and most importantly fits into both melee and caster groups.

 

[Herjulf]

Shaman being more then a support class, how do you see a shaman managing solo in RvR?.
The only thing shamans contribute to grps are End regen and most often sub standard resist buffs.
And pbaoe disease well lol try pbaoe diseasing a fotm hib grp ^^.

Interupting with bolts? and roots?
I surely wish i ever got to interupt with any of those.

AE root i have gotten to use, indeed but the long cast time gives several seconds for insert every know class ingame here alot of time to interupt.

Shaman dmg shields breaks root/snare.

I can go on and on, the fact remains.
it is surely gimp and i listed what shaman needs and it is a fact.

Shamans only contributors are at keep defence/takes.
And as end regen to melee grps.

Soon TOA comes, and melee grps are almost dead there.
Then it is buffbot time again, the only thing a shaman will give to those grps is permasprint and possibly just possibly a CC incase they cant get a 3rd healer.

A common mid grp setup atm are: Skald , anytank (very well another skald for interupting) sm, sm , sm healer healer healer. (poss shaman at last spot )

get shamans a TL NOW!!

 

[Herbal]

shamans arnt meant to solo theyre a support char how many solo clerics bards druids wardens healers do u see?

They rock in groups have huge util and dont need a boost if anything they need a nerf on the insta disease shout

now give cleric pet or cure mezz imho

 

[Belomar]

Herjulf! For Heaven's sake, this is not a game for soloers! Stop comparing every class to a stealther and realize you actually need a group to compete.

 

[Lethul]

shamans arnt meant to solo theyre a support char how many solo clerics bards druids wardens healers do u see?

They rock in groups have huge util and dont need a boost if anything they need a nerf on the insta disease shout

now give cleric pet or cure mezz imho

<[GoL]Herbal> disease isnt worth shit against good groups