We're out!

[rynnor]

Well, that's just rubbish. The poor pay the vast majority of tax as a percentage of their income whilst the rich pay both fuck and all. It doesn't really matter what the rich actually pay if the percentage is so skewed in their favour.

I guess this depends on how you define poor to an extent but the people who pay the most tax as a proportion of income are probably at the 40% bracket - tax +NI + VAT etc. etc. Realistically paying something like 70%.

The Very rich or the self employed can pay a lot less.

Some bloke on unemployment benefit who doesnt run a car, drink or smoke pays very little of his income as tax. First he's not taxed at source, doesnt pay council tax, doesnt pay for essential services like prescriptions, doesnt pay VAT on his rent etc. etc.

 

[rynnor]

I've not paid more than 19% on my total income in years. That's despite income tax + national insurance being more than that and me earning well above the higher tax rate.

You have really in the wider sense - its hard to spend your money without paying VAT, exist without council tax, without paying duty when you have a drink/fag, without running a car/buying petrol etc. etc.

 

[Scouse]

Some bloke on unemployment benefit who doesnt run a car, drink or smoke pays very little of his income as tax. First he's not taxed at source, doesnt pay council tax, doesnt pay for essential services like prescriptions, doesnt pay VAT on his rent etc. etc....................its hard to spend your money without paying VAT, exist without council tax, without paying duty when you have a drink/fag, without running a car/buying petrol etc. etc.

It's a weak argument. For a start that unemployed bloke is poor as fuck. He'd swap places with me in a heartbeat - as would the vast majority of low income workers.

It's not fair that I pay as a proportion of my income much much less than people who earn less than me.

The super rich pay far less than that 19% that I do.

Everyone pays VAT on goods (although if you own a company you don't and you can get away with all sorts in terms of bettering your lifestyle through company expenditure - so VAT is again a tax in favour of the already rich).

The very poor get the first ten grand tax free and a number of concessions - and rightly so IMO. I don't give a fuck if they're work shy fops or not - that's also a weak argument and doesn't acknowledge the millions of poor who work their arses off. It's using prejudice and (ridiculous) jealousy to try and skew an argument.

Tax is only "fair" if the percentage of your total income taken off you by the government is the same across the board - and it isn't. It vastly favours the rich. Massively.

 

[rynnor]

The point I'm making is that the people who pay the highest proportion of income as tax are not the poorest but around the point where 40% tax kicks in.

Also you never define poor - real poverty is not having enough to eat, a place (not a palace) to sleep etc. which pretty much everyone in the UK has.

And you never define the 'rich' - realistically you need to be on 7 figures these days to be rich - everyone else isnt.

 

[Scouse]

The point I'm making is that the people who pay the highest proportion of income as tax are not the poorest but around the point where 40% tax kicks in

I'm saying that 40% tax isn't paid by anyone "rich" as their income will not be covered by income tax.

As for poor - you're poor if you're unemployed. Having enough to eat and a roof over your head is a long way from having a decent life - and there's a fuckload of people in that situation....

 

[- English -]

I find it funny how after 15 minutes of shouting by Ed Miliband, he still cannot admit that he would have joined the EU treaty .. How can you attack the PM on using the VETO to protect the British interests when he cannot admit he would have joined it! Just because you are in opposition, doesn't mean you should oppose British interests!

 

[Embattle]

Saw the shadow *something* on at lunch time doing the same, unwilling to actually answer the question but kept saying it was a bad deal etc.

 

[Embattle]

Seems the markets are in a last minute rush to keep going down at the moment.

 

[Tom]

I don't think it's a sleight of hand at all. I think it's the pertinent fact.

I've not paid more than 19% on my total income in years. That's despite income tax + national insurance being more than that and me earning well above the higher tax rate.

Now, a nurse will pay fuckloads as a percentage of her income compared with me.

Yes, in total I'll pay more tax than a nurse, but as a percentage of my earnings I won't. What's fair about that?

Personally, I think they should flat-rate all income. That'd be fairer.

What has fairness got to do with anything? I'm sick of the bloody word, these days it's a synonym for the old-fashioned leftie view that rich people shouldn't exist.

 

[Scouse]

What has fairness got to do with anything? I'm sick of the bloody word, these days it's a synonym for the old-fashioned leftie view that rich people shouldn't exist.

It's the crux of the argument. You may be sick of it - but I'm sick at the LACK of fairness.

If everyone paid the same proportion of their income that'd be fair. You can have the super-rich - but they should pay the same proportion of their income as everyone else.

Or die

 

[Tom]

No it wouldn't be at all fair, because there are many, many other things in life which cost the same regardless of income. Shoes, for instance. Why the fuck should I pay the same as a rich bloke for a pair of shoes? He can afford more than me, he should pay miles more! Fuel duty - wtf, that bloke is on £100,000 a week, and he pays the same to fill his car as I do! That's not FAIR!

Life isn't fair.

 

[Raven]

I agree with a flat rate of tax. I actually think they should just bin all taxes except VAT, but make VAT 35-50% or something.

The amount of money saved dicking about with all the tax shit would save billions alone.

 

[DaGaffer]

I agree with a flat rate of tax. I actually think they should just bin all taxes except VAT, but make VAT 35-50% or something.

The amount of money saved dicking about with all the tax shit would save billions alone.

This is how the tax system used to work, high duties on goods and no income tax. Unfortunately it also led to endemic smuggling, and as long as you're in the EU it would just stimulate cross border shopping anyway. Ireland's VAT rate is going up to 23% in January and even that 3% difference to the UK will drive massive amounts of retail traffic to Northern Ireland.

 

[ileks]

It's the crux of the argument. You may be sick of it - but I'm sick at the LACK of fairness.

If everyone paid the same proportion of their income that'd be fair. You can have the super-rich - but they should pay the same proportion of their income as everyone else.

Or die

What are you on about for the last few posts? You have it the wrong way around. The rich obviously pay more of a proportion of their income on tax. You say you pay 19% or something while a banker getting a million pound bonus pays 50%, a higher proportion.

If they invest it, they pay tax on the interest (or capital gains) don't they?

 

[ECA]

CGT is 28% once your combined income+investment income > £37k

Simply put, if you're a brazllionaire living off investments making £10m+/year, you're only paying 28% on it ( after whatever deductions/etc you get deducted as well ).

Way less than your average £40k/year pays ( % wise ).

 

[ileks]

You pay tax on all income. If you are living off 10m+ investments you are living off the dividend payments not the capital gains.

edit- and even so, most of this thread has been about working peoples incomes.

 

[Access Denied]

Actually ileks is right. As far as I'm able to determine and my math may be completely wrong, it's like this: Looking at it from a ratio perspective, a banker paying 50% tax on £1m has a take-home/tax ratio of 1:1. Whereas a person who earns £35k a year pays 20% tax and I've worked it out that the ratio there is 21:1.

If I've worked that out right the lower earner is taking a signficantly higher percentage of their earnings than the banker.

 

[Scouse]

don't they?

No. Only a fool pays tax like the plebs do.

Which is my point

edit- and even so, most of this thread has been about working peoples incomes.

There you go. You class people differently. Aren't we all "working people".

Of course, the answer is no.

 

[ileks]

Don't start doing ratios- if you are paying 50% of course you are paying a higher bloody proprtion

 

[ileks]

What is that based on? Please tell me how an employee (say a CEO) avoids income tax.

 

[Access Denied]

I was supporting your argument you ungrateful bastard! =P

 

[ileks]

Hehe sorry

 

[Jeros]

What is that based on? Please tell me how an employee (say a CEO) avoids income tax.

Offsore accounts as some bent fucker I worked with in Norwich used to boast at me about. He has millions but he inherited it rather than made it. He runs a business that pulls in vast amounts of cash per month but crashes from one disaster to the next at massive cost, most staff members do not last more than a month, the whole thing never reaching its full potential due to his lack of leadership, eventually it will ruin him.

But until then he is rich and avoids lots of tax.

 

[Scouse]

What is that based on? Please tell me how an employee (say a CEO) avoids income tax.

At the simplest level, I pay myself the minimum legal wage. That's the only part of my take-home that is liable to income tax or national insurance.

The rest is taken in a variety of tax-efficient means. Maybe dividend, maybe payments somewhere else. Expenses are tax free, so if you can jusitfy spending on something for the "business" then you pay zero tax on it.

The rich are great at this. They skirt the edge of legality and make it more cost-effective for HMRC to settle for a nominal fee than take people to court to get the correct amount of tax.

Joe public A) don't know about it and B) couldn't afford to do that if they did...

 

[Raven]

Let me guess, you are waiting for systematic change before you stop fiddling it yourself?

 

[Embattle]

I can't help but look at the EU as having a wall around it where a padlock was placed on the outside of the door, they've recently been trying rather hard to place one on the inside of the door as well.

 

[Scouse]

Let me guess, you are waiting for systematic change before you stop fiddling it yourself?

Why would you call it "fiddling"? It's by design - and why tax avoidance is legal but tax evasion is not. I meet all legal requirements.

I could, of course, be a total retard and donate all my cash to UK.gov voluntarily, but then I'd have less to spend on hookers n' coke

 

[Raven]

Yeah I know, just having a pop

 

[ileks]

At the simplest level, I pay myself the minimum legal wage. That's the only part of my take-home that is liable to income tax or national insurance.

The rest is taken in a variety of tax-efficient means. Maybe dividend, maybe payments somewhere else. Expenses are tax free, so if you can jusitfy spending on something for the "business" then you pay zero tax on it.

The rich are great at this. They skirt the edge of legality and make it more cost-effective for HMRC to settle for a nominal fee than take people to court to get the correct amount of tax.

Joe public A) don't know about it and B) couldn't afford to do that if they did...

I guess we have a different definition of rich. I don't think the money from expenses (or any other minor tax evading schemes that individuals come up with) make anywhere near the difference obtained from the different brackets on income tax in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Scouse]

I guess we have a different definition of rich. I don't think the money from expenses (or any other minor tax evading schemes that individuals come up with) make anywhere near the difference obtained from the different brackets on income tax in the grand scheme of things.

Lol. So, I pay income tax on about 12 grand and take the other 60 home at less than 20% and you think that's minor?

Furry muff




Edit: Oh, I've been awarded a trophy? Like 5000 posts or something. I didn't know posting on FH was just like playing Battlefield